List of Flat-Tappet Oils
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HandOverFist (08-26-2022)
08-19-2012, 04:39 PM
#582
Race Director
540Rat's results are flawed. He is testing new oil. He is testing film strength. He is not factoring in viscocity breakdown or ZDDP depletion. The facts are ZDDP levels drop up to 50% in 3000 miles likely more if the original level is reduced by 50%. The SM/SN rated oil that tests good when new with 600 PPM ZDDP may have inadequate protection @ 1000 miles when ZDDP levels have dropped to under 500 PPM. By the time you hit 3000 miles your trying to protect a flat tappet cam with 300 PPM ZDDP when the recommended level is 1000. Film strength is also a result of viscocity modifiers. These are broken down as oil shear happens. A lot of conventional oils depend on high levels of Viscocity index improvers or "Viscocity modifiers" to turn single grade oil into a multi grade. These are very suceptable to oil shear. As this happens the film strength drops rapidly. Combined with dropping ZDDP levels this is a recipe for disaster, especially if your using a flat tappet cam with heavy spring pressures, high lift and fast ramps. True synthetic oils use little or no viscocity modifiers. This is one reason why many are considered extended drain interval oils. The sheared VI improvers are contaminants. Do you really want your engine to be a guinea pig for a theory based on flawed conclusions using improper testing protocol, not factoring in the above obvious facts? Think about it. How much ZDDP is required to protect a flat tappet cam. Who knows. It varies with the application and severity of use. I would rather be safe than sorry. Use all the information available. There are plenty of oils on 540rat's film strenght list that also have 12-1400 ppm ZDDP and are synthetic based so have a more stable VI and reduced viscocity breakdown. His testing has merit but the conclusions drawn on new oil will not apply to the oil with 1000, 2000 3000 miles on it.
Last edited by 63mako; 08-19-2012 at 04:58 PM.
09-06-2012, 08:17 PM
#583
2nd Gear
Member Since: Sep 2012
Location: Medina OH
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The more times I read all this (and other strings and forums) the more confused I become as to what to actually BUY. I don't want a synthetic, the old girl leaks enough already (well, not that much really, but I don't want to start new problems). It is stated that we are not making recommendations, and I get that. But as I review the top post for the umpteenth time, I still don't find an answer to the simple, most basic question: "what non-synthetic, dino oil can I go readily buy that has at least 1200 ppm ZDDP, with Verification?" That's all I want to know...
09-07-2012, 03:12 PM
#585
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
09-08-2012, 07:34 PM
#586
Race Director
Sorry to throw a monkey wrench in Billa but Brad Penn is Semi-Synthetic and they also have a break in oil with reduced friction inhibitors for flat tappet cams because if the oil is too "slippery" (for the lack of a better term) the cam and lifters will not mate/wear in as good as with an oil with a high ZDDP level, you do want some some wear in the 20-30 minute breakin period, this of course does not apply to roller cams 
09-08-2012, 08:14 PM
#587
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
No "monkey wrench" - I asked for corrections - I'll update the information.
As for needing LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in - contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider - we'll agree to disagree.
It's on the list with the note regarding ZDDP levels - readers can make their own decision.
As for needing LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in - contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider - we'll agree to disagree.
It's on the list with the note regarding ZDDP levels - readers can make their own decision.
Last edited by billla; 09-08-2012 at 08:19 PM.
09-09-2012, 10:08 PM
#588
Pro
Member Since: Apr 2006
Location: Southern California
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I feel I should step in and comment on a couple of the previous replies which were:
"Brad Penn is Semi-Synthetic and they also have a break in oil with reduced friction inhibitors for flat tappet cams because if the oil is too "slippery" (for the lack of a better term) the cam and lifters will not mate/wear in as good as with an oil with a high ZDDP level, you do want some some wear in the 20-30 minute breakin period".
And, "As for needing LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in - contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider - we'll agree to disagree".
My real world independent and unbiased Engineering Test Data, as well as previous Oil Industry Test Data has clearly shown that extra zinc DOES NOT PROVIDE MORE WEAR PROTECTION, IT ONLY PROVIDES LONGER WEAR PROTECTION. Anyone who still refuses to accept that, in spite of all the test data backing that up, is only kidding themselves and shooting themselves in the foot.
If you happened to read my write-up on Break-In oil, you'd know that there is no factual data proving that you need any particular kind of oil for break-in. Modern low zinc oils have been used to break-in brand new high performance factory engines for decades. GM and many imports have used full synthetic low zinc Mobil 1, and Ford has used full synthetic Motorcraft in their Ford GT Sports Cars as well as their current Supercharged Shelby GT500 Mustangs. Both of these oils have tested out to provide outstanding wear protection, yet the engines always break-in just fine, and of course they also have a complete factory warranty.
And of course traditional engines have been broken in with every imaginable oil you can come up with. And all end up working just fine. Break-In oils, Diesel Oils and low zinc oils with extra aftermarket zinc additives, all just provide undesirable to modest levels of wear protection. Traditional high zinc oils vary from outstanding wear protection to only modest wear protection. But, no matter what oil is used, the engines still break-in just fine. Bottom line is that break-in oil is simply NOT critical, no matter what anyone happens to believe.
Then the remark about LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in, being contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider, is unquestionably just made up nonsense.
It is extremely doubtful that anyone has ever questioned "every" flat-tappet cam manufacturer or every break-in oil provider. And speaking from experience, when you do contact those folks, you can seldom get a hold of anyone but a phone answering customer rep. And those folks typically have little experience or knowledge. Anything you get from them would be next to useless. And in the case of cam manufacturers, they most certainly are NOT oil experts by any measure. If anything, they've just been brainwashed by the same folklore and wife's tales as most other car guys, and believe that you need high zinc levels for everything, which is COMPLETLY FALSE. So, even attempting to use those supposed contacts as proof of anything, is totally laughable.
No one could find valid test data comparing the wear protection capability of dozens and dozens of oils ANYWHERE....................until I finally did it myself this year. I got sick and tired of all the misinformation and misunderstanding about motor oil, so I decided to do something about it. I invested a lot of money and time to find out the truth about motor oil. I also consulted a number of other Engineers about my protocol and results. And not one single Degreed Engineer had any concern about what I did. The only folks who've ever questioned what I've done with my oil testing, is unqualified Hotrodders and Racers. So, that speaks volumes.
And for the record, the next time I change my own oil, I will test that used oil for what its remaining wear protection capability is. Then I can compare that value with its new value to see how they compare straight across. Care to make any predictions? So, stay tuned for more on that.
540 RAT
Member SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)
"Brad Penn is Semi-Synthetic and they also have a break in oil with reduced friction inhibitors for flat tappet cams because if the oil is too "slippery" (for the lack of a better term) the cam and lifters will not mate/wear in as good as with an oil with a high ZDDP level, you do want some some wear in the 20-30 minute breakin period".
And, "As for needing LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in - contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider - we'll agree to disagree".
My real world independent and unbiased Engineering Test Data, as well as previous Oil Industry Test Data has clearly shown that extra zinc DOES NOT PROVIDE MORE WEAR PROTECTION, IT ONLY PROVIDES LONGER WEAR PROTECTION. Anyone who still refuses to accept that, in spite of all the test data backing that up, is only kidding themselves and shooting themselves in the foot.
If you happened to read my write-up on Break-In oil, you'd know that there is no factual data proving that you need any particular kind of oil for break-in. Modern low zinc oils have been used to break-in brand new high performance factory engines for decades. GM and many imports have used full synthetic low zinc Mobil 1, and Ford has used full synthetic Motorcraft in their Ford GT Sports Cars as well as their current Supercharged Shelby GT500 Mustangs. Both of these oils have tested out to provide outstanding wear protection, yet the engines always break-in just fine, and of course they also have a complete factory warranty.
And of course traditional engines have been broken in with every imaginable oil you can come up with. And all end up working just fine. Break-In oils, Diesel Oils and low zinc oils with extra aftermarket zinc additives, all just provide undesirable to modest levels of wear protection. Traditional high zinc oils vary from outstanding wear protection to only modest wear protection. But, no matter what oil is used, the engines still break-in just fine. Bottom line is that break-in oil is simply NOT critical, no matter what anyone happens to believe.
Then the remark about LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in, being contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider, is unquestionably just made up nonsense.
It is extremely doubtful that anyone has ever questioned "every" flat-tappet cam manufacturer or every break-in oil provider. And speaking from experience, when you do contact those folks, you can seldom get a hold of anyone but a phone answering customer rep. And those folks typically have little experience or knowledge. Anything you get from them would be next to useless. And in the case of cam manufacturers, they most certainly are NOT oil experts by any measure. If anything, they've just been brainwashed by the same folklore and wife's tales as most other car guys, and believe that you need high zinc levels for everything, which is COMPLETLY FALSE. So, even attempting to use those supposed contacts as proof of anything, is totally laughable.
No one could find valid test data comparing the wear protection capability of dozens and dozens of oils ANYWHERE....................until I finally did it myself this year. I got sick and tired of all the misinformation and misunderstanding about motor oil, so I decided to do something about it. I invested a lot of money and time to find out the truth about motor oil. I also consulted a number of other Engineers about my protocol and results. And not one single Degreed Engineer had any concern about what I did. The only folks who've ever questioned what I've done with my oil testing, is unqualified Hotrodders and Racers. So, that speaks volumes.
And for the record, the next time I change my own oil, I will test that used oil for what its remaining wear protection capability is. Then I can compare that value with its new value to see how they compare straight across. Care to make any predictions? So, stay tuned for more on that.
540 RAT
Member SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)
Last edited by H P Bushrod; 09-10-2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Please direct members to your sticky with updated info instead of posting it here.
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HandOverFist (08-26-2022)
09-09-2012, 10:44 PM
#589
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
*sigh* not again.
Unreal how some folks just won't - or can't - learn.
Same old
Post reported.
Unreal how some folks just won't - or can't - learn.
Same old
Post reported.
Last edited by billla; 09-10-2012 at 02:01 AM.
09-12-2012, 01:36 AM
#591
Melting Slicks
09-12-2012, 08:49 AM
#592
Race Director
09-12-2012, 09:03 AM
#593
Race Director
I feel I should step in and comment on a couple of the previous replies which were:
"Brad Penn is Semi-Synthetic and they also have a break in oil with reduced friction inhibitors for flat tappet cams because if the oil is too "slippery" (for the lack of a better term) the cam and lifters will not mate/wear in as good as with an oil with a high ZDDP level, you do want some some wear in the 20-30 minute breakin period".
And, "As for needing LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in - contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider - we'll agree to disagree".
My real world independent and unbiased Engineering Test Data, as well as previous Oil Industry Test Data has clearly shown that extra zinc DOES NOT PROVIDE MORE WEAR PROTECTION, IT ONLY PROVIDES LONGER WEAR PROTECTION. Anyone who still refuses to accept that, in spite of all the test data backing that up, is only kidding themselves and shooting themselves in the foot.
If you happened to read my write-up on Break-In oil, you'd know that there is no factual data proving that you need any particular kind of oil for break-in. Modern low zinc oils have been used to break-in brand new high performance factory engines for decades. GM and many imports have used full synthetic low zinc Mobil 1, and Ford has used full synthetic Motorcraft in their Ford GT Sports Cars as well as their current Supercharged Shelby GT500 Mustangs. Both of these oils have tested out to provide outstanding wear protection, yet the engines always break-in just fine, and of course they also have a complete factory warranty.
And of course traditional engines have been broken in with every imaginable oil you can come up with. And all end up working just fine. Break-In oils, Diesel Oils and low zinc oils with extra aftermarket zinc additives, all just provide undesirable to modest levels of wear protection. Traditional high zinc oils vary from outstanding wear protection to only modest wear protection. But, no matter what oil is used, the engines still break-in just fine. Bottom line is that break-in oil is simply NOT critical, no matter what anyone happens to believe.
Then the remark about LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in, being contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider, is unquestionably just made up nonsense.
It is extremely doubtful that anyone has ever questioned "every" flat-tappet cam manufacturer or every break-in oil provider. And speaking from experience, when you do contact those folks, you can seldom get a hold of anyone but a phone answering customer rep. And those folks typically have little experience or knowledge. Anything you get from them would be next to useless. And in the case of cam manufacturers, they most certainly are NOT oil experts by any measure. If anything, they've just been brainwashed by the same folklore and wife's tales as most other car guys, and believe that you need high zinc levels for everything, which is COMPLETLY FALSE. So, even attempting to use those supposed contacts as proof of anything, is totally laughable.
No one could find valid test data comparing the wear protection capability of dozens and dozens of oils ANYWHERE....................until I finally did it myself this year. I got sick and tired of all the misinformation and misunderstanding about motor oil, so I decided to do something about it. I invested a lot of money and time to find out the truth about motor oil. I also consulted a number of other Engineers about my protocol and results. And not one single Degreed Engineer had any concern about what I did. The only folks who've ever questioned what I've done with my oil testing, is unqualified Hotrodders and Racers. So, that speaks volumes.
And for the record, the next time I change my own oil, I will test that used oil for what its remaining wear protection capability is. Then I can compare that value with its new value to see how they compare straight across. Care to make any predictions? So, stay tuned for more on that.
540 RAT
Member SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)
"Brad Penn is Semi-Synthetic and they also have a break in oil with reduced friction inhibitors for flat tappet cams because if the oil is too "slippery" (for the lack of a better term) the cam and lifters will not mate/wear in as good as with an oil with a high ZDDP level, you do want some some wear in the 20-30 minute breakin period".
And, "As for needing LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in - contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider - we'll agree to disagree".
My real world independent and unbiased Engineering Test Data, as well as previous Oil Industry Test Data has clearly shown that extra zinc DOES NOT PROVIDE MORE WEAR PROTECTION, IT ONLY PROVIDES LONGER WEAR PROTECTION. Anyone who still refuses to accept that, in spite of all the test data backing that up, is only kidding themselves and shooting themselves in the foot.
If you happened to read my write-up on Break-In oil, you'd know that there is no factual data proving that you need any particular kind of oil for break-in. Modern low zinc oils have been used to break-in brand new high performance factory engines for decades. GM and many imports have used full synthetic low zinc Mobil 1, and Ford has used full synthetic Motorcraft in their Ford GT Sports Cars as well as their current Supercharged Shelby GT500 Mustangs. Both of these oils have tested out to provide outstanding wear protection, yet the engines always break-in just fine, and of course they also have a complete factory warranty.
And of course traditional engines have been broken in with every imaginable oil you can come up with. And all end up working just fine. Break-In oils, Diesel Oils and low zinc oils with extra aftermarket zinc additives, all just provide undesirable to modest levels of wear protection. Traditional high zinc oils vary from outstanding wear protection to only modest wear protection. But, no matter what oil is used, the engines still break-in just fine. Bottom line is that break-in oil is simply NOT critical, no matter what anyone happens to believe.
Then the remark about LESS ZDDP for flat-tappet cam break-in, being contrary to every flat-tappet cam manufacturer and every other break-in oil provider, is unquestionably just made up nonsense.
It is extremely doubtful that anyone has ever questioned "every" flat-tappet cam manufacturer or every break-in oil provider. And speaking from experience, when you do contact those folks, you can seldom get a hold of anyone but a phone answering customer rep. And those folks typically have little experience or knowledge. Anything you get from them would be next to useless. And in the case of cam manufacturers, they most certainly are NOT oil experts by any measure. If anything, they've just been brainwashed by the same folklore and wife's tales as most other car guys, and believe that you need high zinc levels for everything, which is COMPLETLY FALSE. So, even attempting to use those supposed contacts as proof of anything, is totally laughable.
No one could find valid test data comparing the wear protection capability of dozens and dozens of oils ANYWHERE....................until I finally did it myself this year. I got sick and tired of all the misinformation and misunderstanding about motor oil, so I decided to do something about it. I invested a lot of money and time to find out the truth about motor oil. I also consulted a number of other Engineers about my protocol and results. And not one single Degreed Engineer had any concern about what I did. The only folks who've ever questioned what I've done with my oil testing, is unqualified Hotrodders and Racers. So, that speaks volumes.
And for the record, the next time I change my own oil, I will test that used oil for what its remaining wear protection capability is. Then I can compare that value with its new value to see how they compare straight across. Care to make any predictions? So, stay tuned for more on that.
540 RAT
Member SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)
Your recommendations to others to ignore ZDDP levels on flat tappet cams, especially high spring pressure or solids is unsubstatiated and unconfirmed because you haven't tested them under those conditions. UOA that comes out of your roller engine is no validation for the results that would be obtained from a similar flat tappet build.
11-08-2012, 12:19 AM
#594
Man!
Both of you are ruining this forum!
Just stay out of each others posts....
Both of you are ruining this forum!
Just stay out of each others posts....
Last edited by Kruegmeister; 11-08-2012 at 12:34 AM.
11-13-2012, 10:48 AM
#595
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I welcome genuine, fact-based participation on the thread for the benefit of the community. That's what a discussion board is for.
540 RAT has his own sticky, which he generally chooses not to use.
I've seen a lot of posts lately talking about "clutter" on this thread - I've included direct links to any key posts in the main post, but the point of a sticky is to collect information and viewpoints into one place. If you don't want the "clutter", then read the first post and make your decision from there.
Honestly, folks - it's not that hard. Everything I've written has been vetted (no pun intended) with the oil and cam vendors. If there's different information I'd just ask that you do the same diligence and make a few phone calls. Opinions are easy. Research is hard.
Everyone needs to make up their own minds. The purpose of this sticky was to offer a simple list of good choices for those that just want to make a good pick...and the technical background for those that have interest. That's it.
540 RAT has his own sticky, which he generally chooses not to use.
I've seen a lot of posts lately talking about "clutter" on this thread - I've included direct links to any key posts in the main post, but the point of a sticky is to collect information and viewpoints into one place. If you don't want the "clutter", then read the first post and make your decision from there.
Honestly, folks - it's not that hard. Everything I've written has been vetted (no pun intended) with the oil and cam vendors. If there's different information I'd just ask that you do the same diligence and make a few phone calls. Opinions are easy. Research is hard.
Everyone needs to make up their own minds. The purpose of this sticky was to offer a simple list of good choices for those that just want to make a good pick...and the technical background for those that have interest. That's it.
Last edited by billla; 11-13-2012 at 11:04 AM.
01-07-2013, 06:47 PM
#596
Melting Slicks
Mixing viscosity??
If my '77 has "lowish" oil pressure with 10-30 Valvoline VR1 and 20-50 seems like overkill can I use half 10-30 and half 20-50 since VR1 conventional does not come in 10-40??
01-24-2013, 07:12 PM
#598
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
1. Varnish has built up in the lifter bore, or the bore sizing/finish was incorrect at installation.
2. The cam lobe, the lifter or both have worn beyond service limits.
Every engine I've built for the last 5-6 years have run a steady diet of various synthetics with no issues at all, and many flat-tappet cam vendors RECOMMEND synthetics.
There are no issues - zero - using synthetic oils with flat-tappet cams, new or classic.
04-18-2013, 06:39 PM
#599
Safety Car
That's because its made on "Kendall rd" in Bradford Pa in the old kendall motor oil plant and uses the local "green" oil from wells that once supplied kendall before they closed down and sold the name to some oil refinery in the middle east.... Kendall went the way of the dodo bird and auto lite..... all that's left it foreign knockoffs using the name.
05-01-2013, 02:49 PM
#600
Advanced
Member Since: Aug 2012
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Billa
Just got thru reading all 30 pages.
Great job of trying to keep people focused on what you are trying to do even though some refuse to accept it.
Thanks for all your effort. It's this kind of dedication & persistence that makes these forums worth while.
Thanks to all the other posters who bought meaningful comment
Just got thru reading all 30 pages.
Great job of trying to keep people focused on what you are trying to do even though some refuse to accept it.
Thanks for all your effort. It's this kind of dedication & persistence that makes these forums worth while.
Thanks to all the other posters who bought meaningful comment