Anyone using this? Has anyone heard and good or bad things about this system? I'm thinking of switching from the carb to Fuel intention.

 

I use it on both my BBC (zz502) and SBC (406) 1980 Vettes.
I recommend you use the Holley Annihilator CD box and crank trigger, with a pahseable distributor.it will take time to ptogram - but it is worth the effort. ZWEDE uses this system too - but he likes HEI.

 

Well I have the MSD pro-billet HEI so it will work with the system? Also are you able to run direct port injection Nitrous with this system?

 

The new version (street) of the Holley firmware and software has the nitrous function deleted. There is a race version that may support it. Yes the HEI ProBillet will work. I just like the accuracy and precsion of the crank trigger and phaseable distributor. I guess I am a timing "nit-picker".

 

Click on the link in my sig and look at the EFI pages. I documented the install of a Commander 950 system on my 71 454.

Any question, just let me know.

 

Zwede

I am real close to seeing how my Fuel Injection is going to work. The Holley may very well be superior for fine tuning.

The knock sensor option on the Holley is a nice feature. I use this on my 90 Vette with the miniram conversion to watch on my scanner and adjust my max timing curve in real time at WOT. It is difficult finding a safe place to do this kind of testing, but it provides the ultimate in fine tuning.

When you set/reset programs for your fuel curve, etc. etc. how do you do it? In other words, do you go to the track, rip up and down the street, or have a dyno to park it on and tweak it out? Do you save everything in an electronic format, or do you get out a piece of paper and map the different steps of calibration you are adding/taking out?

I have been doing as much reading and preperation as possible for my initial tune and running program. I sent Edelbrock my engine specs and they overnighted a custom e-prom for the basic application. Now, using a series of block graphs, I will be able to calibrate above and below the base chip settings for fuel, idle, ignition. It lets me set three programs A,B, & C. No lap top needed, because it has its own calibration hand held scanner/module. I guess I will be able to set the three different tuning modes, then go to the track, dyno, etc. and toggle between them for optimal performance.

It is still better than a carb, but I like to keep things simple. The more options you give me, the more confused I get.

So, I will know soon how all this plays out.


Thanks,

Chris

 

Not sure I understand the question, but tuning the 950 is all done through a GUI on the laptop. When I change a fuel map cell, it is immediately sent to the ECM. If I wish, I can save the entire configuration to disk. I can then toggle between configs by loading from disk into the GUI and then upload the whole thing into the ECM. I don't see a need for any toggling, though. One program should be all that I need. I adjust low speed and cruise for max mileage and driveability, and WOT for max power.

I do the cruise and low load tuning on the street. I just have the laptop in the passenger seat while driving to work.

The WOT tuning will be done on a dyno with wideband O2 sensor. I haven't done that yet, as I found that my 30lbs injectors are too small. Currently in the process of upgrading to 42's. Once those are in, I will remap for the larger injectors, and then head for the dyno. Remapping is simple with the 950. I just highlight the cells I want to change, and enter a multiplication factor. For instance, If I want everything below WOT to be 10% leaner, I highlight all those cells, and enter "*0.9".

Hope this clarifies.

 

You answered my question.

Does Holley exchange the injectors, or do you have to get them from another source?

The Edelbrock injectors are very strange looking. Can't remember the lbs at the moment, but they are tiny looking.

How did you come to the conclusion that you need bigger ones?

 

I didn't ask holley to exchange them. After all, I bought them almost a year ago, so it's not fair to ask for a refund/exchange. Looking on ebay instead. :)
I'll sell my 30 lbs injectors on ebay and recoup some of the cost.

I did some math to figure out the injectors are too small:

Injector size = hp * BSFC / (8 * dc)

hp is target power at the crank
bsfc is brake specific fuel consumption. Usually 0.43-0.48 for small blocks, and 0.46-0.50 for big blocks.
dc is duty cycle. Shouldn't run the injectors above 90%.

So using 0.50 bsfc and 550 hp, I get:

550 * 0.5 / (8*0.9) = 38.2 lbs

I noticed that even with the fuel pressure at 50 PSI I'm still getting rather lean O2 readings at WOT. I see around 0.65-0.70 V. That's with the duty cycle pretty much maxed out. I also haven't opened my exhaust cutouts which add about 35 hp and would require more fuel.

 

Very cool. I like that formula. I also agree, if they don't have some kind of program in place, it would not be right to try and return them. Could you order a Commander with larger injectors the first time around?

You know, I have learned more about both of these systems from you, than virtually any other source.

So I guess you want to pump the fuel mix up enough to register about 860 mv on the O2 at WOT just like any other engine?

I have been doing some research on that for my 90 vette. Believe it or not, with stock injectors and stock chip on the miniram manifold, edelbock heads, crane cam, headers etc, I can't get it below 900. That is with the timing as crisp as possible and the fuel pressure regulator backed all the way off. In the same regard, my pump shot mixture (due to a stock chip) is way too lean, so every now and then it bogs and or is a little weak on instant throttle increase under a load. However, it is lean everythere else!

I really need some dyno time. Seems to me if I had a dyno for at least two weekends, that would give me time to make some runs, make some adjustments, then spend the next week looking for answers before trying it again.

Have you had a good chance yet to do any fuel mileage comparisons between the carb and EFI?

 

Yes, I could have ordered the EFI with larger injectors. My fault for not properly investigating before ordering. Somewhat Holley's fault for advertising the 30 lbs kit to be good upto 550 horse, when it's really maxed out around 480-500.

I want to see atleast 800 mV on the O2, and I'd like the duty cycle to be less than 90% at that point. Then I can take it to the dyno and dial it in. The dyno I take it to now has the wideband O2 and new dynojet SW that plots Air/fuel ratio into the graph, so tuning is pretty straight forward.

As for mileage, it's about 5-10% better. Still wont win any mileage contests, but getting 15-16 freeway and 10-11 city isn't too bad. Wipers get 10 city, and that's what I'm comparing to.

 

How hard is it to dial in this injection system?

A good friend of mine put the Holley Pro-injection on his 350 and after a year of trying to get it to work, he gave up and sent it back to Summit (great return policy). I have talked to a lot of people that have told me it is very hard to get the pro-injection to work right. I talked to the tuning expert at my local dyno shop and he told me that he has had tons of problems getting the pro-injection to work right.

Is the Commander any easier to setup? I would really like to inject my 406 in my 65 to make it easier to drive and start up in the morning. Are there clearance issues with the TPI versus the TPI setup?

Thanks,

Mike

 

Mike,

I can't speak for the Commando, but I can say that I choose the Edelbrock Pro Flo multi port EFI for several reasons. I don't like to fiddle with things too much. I realize I may be giving up some hsp, but I do prefer more plug and play type installs.

Zwede, on the other hand enjoys the tuning end of it and has great talents in that regard. The Commando was a better match for him and his needs.

I agree with you, why bother upgrading to EFI if you spend all your time trying to tune it and get it to run right.

I am about 2-3 weeks away from bringing mine to life, and another 3-4 months from driving it.

Maybe if you have not made a purchase decision by then you can track both me and Zwede back down for some more feedback.

BTW, the basic Holley EFI (throttle body style) is not very flexible. You can also have terrible problems by putting too much cam under it. I helped a fellow put the small Holley 2bbl EFI (throttle body) on a hot rod with a very stock engine. The Pro Injection system would flow up to 270 hsp. It runs factory smooth and is very responsible. However, it was on a stock small block.

 

Mike: Which pro-jection system was this? The older analog system with the ***** on it was junk, to be blunt. I don't know of anyone who made one of those run well. The newer Pro-jection (4-d and 4-di) are digital and laptop programmable. These should run well. The Commander 950 is yet another generation. You can get the Cmdr 950 with both MPFI and TBI (replacing pro-jection) setups.

 

Zwede,

It was the newer laptop programmable system. Maybe it was just too complicated for a bunch of old school carb guys, but a lot of good mechanics worked on it and never had any luck.

I just had my car tuned and had a new exhaust with an X-pipe and Dynomax ultraflows put on and my car now runs a lot better, so I may wait until I find someone locally who has had sucess with injection. Besides, I probably have a better chance of making it into the 11's with my Demon 750. Although it would be nice to get better than 12 mpg, but that is tough when I spend a lot of time with my tires spinning.

Mike

 

That is interesting. The one I messed with was the old 2bbl 270 max hsp system with the little "dial it in" box to run rich or lean. It worked/works great to this day. The main difference however might be the fact is was indeed a bone stock late model ex TBI 350 from a police car.

Apples to Apples, and for WOT only, no sense in spending the extra $$$ an time on EFI. If all you are planning on is some super hot 1/4 times, you can certainly achieve that with a Demon carb and some tuning.

The benefit of EFI is different. That is, reliable consistant street manors, better MPG, and better overall performance through the spectrum of throttle response than a carb. From what I can tell, this is especially true of the Commander as you seem to have an almost infinite range of adjustments along the fuel and spark curve.

The only other really cool thing is, popping the hood and sporting eight individual injectors and a high tech ignition system. That is worth half the purchase price!!!

 

i have had the old style on my 350 and 406 and i ran it for 2 weeks..zuede gave me some pointers but the system just wouldnt work with my cam i had but the same system worked great on a stock big block we were able to tune it perfectly lots of low end great throttle response.But on my motor it had to be adjusted everyday to get it right,i will say throttle response was way better then a carb.Ill save some more and get a better system later.

 

The Pro-Jection ECU is a waste of time and effort.
get the Commander 950, read the big Acrobat file on Holley's web site and enjoy!

:D :rolleyes: :D

 

Hey shawn! Did you ship out yet?