Question for the home made R&P guys?
05-05-2012, 12:59 AM
#21
Drifting
Would I buy a R&P??????
Aussiejohn, sorry for not getting back with you its been a long 2 days.
If you could buy a rack system that did eveything that you liked as you mentioned above or could make one at half the cost of a Borgeson unit would you do it? You probably would and a lot of other Vette owners will too. I'll re-emphasize; "linear motion is linear motion no matter how its accomplished." You can swap one for the other.
If you could buy a rack system that did eveything that you liked as you mentioned above or could make one at half the cost of a Borgeson unit would you do it? You probably would and a lot of other Vette owners will too. I'll re-emphasize; "linear motion is linear motion no matter how its accomplished." You can swap one for the other.
Interesting question you've posed. To a lot of people the bottom line is the most important thing and if that was the case for me, then maybe I would have gone down that road. However, I'm not an automotive steering engineer and the thought of designing something myself to put into my classic Corvette fills me with dread.
Then there's something that I haven't seen raised on these threads: what would happen if a "home made" steering system failed on a Corvette or other car and that car veered onto the wrong side of the road and injured or killed someone? What if the inquest or Police Accident Investigation Squad or equivalent determined that the cause of the crash was the failure of a steering component(s) that were non-factory and had been fitted by the owner?
Would your insurance company cover you in that case? What if they used your non-standard steering conversion as a reason to avoid covering you for any property damage you caused? What if the damage caused was more than you could sell your house for? What if the Police decided to press charges against you for causing the collision? What if those charges included manslaughter?
I don't have the answers to those questions, but I believe that they need to be asked. Steering and brakes are probably the two most important parts of a motor car that relate to safety. I'm not sure that it is wise to fiddle with these components unless you have some sort of qualifications in those areas. I don't and that's why I looked at all of the various Corvette power steering options before I settled on the one I did.
Subsequent discussions with the vendor lead to them offering me a distributorship in Australia and as this Company had the engineering background that I have listed above, it was an easy decision to make. This Company provided uni joints to Henry Ford for his Model T and has been in the automotive trade ever since and that's good enough for me.
Kalvin, would you care to tell us the reason you decided to make your own R&P conversion. Were you dissatisfied with the commercially available ones on the market? Which part(s) made you think that you could do better? Was it the overall price?
For me, the price of the W&S integral box was around half of the R&P kits available and although around a grand, I was not skilled enough to try to do better just to save some hundreds of dollars. This IS my car's steering, after all!
Keep working, I really want to see your completed product and sincerely hope that it is as good as you believe it is.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
05-06-2012, 02:24 AM
#22
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[QUOTE=aussiejohn;1580732716]Kalvin,
Kalvin, would you care to tell us the reason you decided to make your own R&P conversion. Were you dissatisfied with the commercially available ones on the market? Which part(s) made you think that you could do better? Was it the overall price?
Aussiejohn, my car is a project and unfortunately it requires just about everything except an engine and tires. I started from the top of the engine down until I got to the steering system. I've only driven the car once, 350 miles (563 km) and the steering was atrocious with having to correct every few seconds along with it leaking eveywhere. I started reading up on my options and actually thought of doing the jeep conversion even though I still remember nightmares of removing a pitman arm on an old Buick one time. I had to buy 2 pullers, the one I used and the one I barrowed and bent. My final decision was actually made by the Borgeson rep here on the forum. He was discussing which technology was newer and actually gave the part number of the rack his competition was using. After finding a new remanufactured rack on Ebay and the seller agreeing on a $60 delivered price this started the ball rolling. I read up on all the homemade installs and all the problems with brackets and bumpsteer. Once I got into the conversion I was surprised to see how everything seemed to fit as if it belonged. The C3 steering is what it is, you can improve on it but you can't change it. I think this is where the mistake is made. I'm like you I want to have a safe vehicle that I don't ever have to worry about. My design is safe and bumpsteer shouldn't be a concern. The best part about going this route was being able to pay as you go. My rack was $60, 1st bracket $30, the second and third brackets $35 each. My new hoses were a whopping $16. With safety a concern I bought new u-joints and steering shaft being the biggest cost of $149. These are designed very well and even if something could come loose they should stay in place. In between all this I've spent $285 for a carpet set and another $245 to redo the passenger seat. I'm not keeping the car original since it was already repainted and plus have you ever seen what Cinnabar looks like after 31 years?
I'm working on the exhaust at this time. I had a friend check out the car before I bought it since I was buying it long distance. That'll be last time I do that the car didn't even have mufflers on it. 
The rack route was appealing too because of the $1300 aftermarket price. You get a feeling of what your time is worth and you have the pride of your accomplishment. After I test dive the car I'll post my thread. It'll show everyone how easy the rack conversion can be even without any special tools. Cheers!
Kalvin, would you care to tell us the reason you decided to make your own R&P conversion. Were you dissatisfied with the commercially available ones on the market? Which part(s) made you think that you could do better? Was it the overall price?
Aussiejohn, my car is a project and unfortunately it requires just about everything except an engine and tires. I started from the top of the engine down until I got to the steering system. I've only driven the car once, 350 miles (563 km) and the steering was atrocious with having to correct every few seconds along with it leaking eveywhere. I started reading up on my options and actually thought of doing the jeep conversion even though I still remember nightmares of removing a pitman arm on an old Buick one time. I had to buy 2 pullers, the one I used and the one I barrowed and bent. My final decision was actually made by the Borgeson rep here on the forum. He was discussing which technology was newer and actually gave the part number of the rack his competition was using. After finding a new remanufactured rack on Ebay and the seller agreeing on a $60 delivered price this started the ball rolling. I read up on all the homemade installs and all the problems with brackets and bumpsteer. Once I got into the conversion I was surprised to see how everything seemed to fit as if it belonged. The C3 steering is what it is, you can improve on it but you can't change it. I think this is where the mistake is made. I'm like you I want to have a safe vehicle that I don't ever have to worry about. My design is safe and bumpsteer shouldn't be a concern. The best part about going this route was being able to pay as you go. My rack was $60, 1st bracket $30, the second and third brackets $35 each. My new hoses were a whopping $16. With safety a concern I bought new u-joints and steering shaft being the biggest cost of $149. These are designed very well and even if something could come loose they should stay in place. In between all this I've spent $285 for a carpet set and another $245 to redo the passenger seat. I'm not keeping the car original since it was already repainted and plus have you ever seen what Cinnabar looks like after 31 years?
I'm working on the exhaust at this time. I had a friend check out the car before I bought it since I was buying it long distance. That'll be last time I do that the car didn't even have mufflers on it. The rack route was appealing too because of the $1300 aftermarket price. You get a feeling of what your time is worth and you have the pride of your accomplishment. After I test dive the car I'll post my thread. It'll show everyone how easy the rack conversion can be even without any special tools. Cheers!
05-06-2012, 09:17 AM
#23
Drifting
Thank you for the background.
Kalvin,
Thanks for that, I have to hand it to you for getting just about a complete system for $325. I doubt if I could buy just a good used rack at a wrecker's here for that price. Let alone all the rest of the parts. I have had a few hoses made up recently and they worked out at about AU$45 each. Parts are just so expensive here.
My only question to you is regarding your sentence, "My design is safe and bumpsteer shouldn't be a concern." Can you quantify that statement? What engineering qualifications do you have to be able to make such a statement?
Believe me, I want your car to be as safe or safer than when it left the factory, but GM engineers spent millions designing that system and by and large, it has stood up pretty well over the last fifty years. Sure, the steering feel and response sucks by today's standards, but structurally, it has stood the test of time. Will yours?
I hope so.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
Thanks for that, I have to hand it to you for getting just about a complete system for $325. I doubt if I could buy just a good used rack at a wrecker's here for that price. Let alone all the rest of the parts. I have had a few hoses made up recently and they worked out at about AU$45 each. Parts are just so expensive here.
My only question to you is regarding your sentence, "My design is safe and bumpsteer shouldn't be a concern." Can you quantify that statement? What engineering qualifications do you have to be able to make such a statement?
Believe me, I want your car to be as safe or safer than when it left the factory, but GM engineers spent millions designing that system and by and large, it has stood up pretty well over the last fifty years. Sure, the steering feel and response sucks by today's standards, but structurally, it has stood the test of time. Will yours?
I hope so.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
05-06-2012, 03:47 PM
#24
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Aussiejohn, I think you over glamorize the C3 steering setup. It isn't any different than any other GM car from the time. I've given you plenty of hints on what I've done and I was sure you would have figured it out by now but I'll give you one more hint: I only changed the "engine" and not the "transmission." This is why it should be safe and have no more bump steer than it did when it came from the factory. The secret is; "How to hook up the different engine to the transmission?" That you'll have to wait for!
05-06-2012, 07:31 PM
#25
Team Owner
Aus.J. c2-3 corvettes are well known for **** poor bump stear from the factory, the tie rods are too short, this was gone over years ago on this forum, fellows like TT, and Norval explained it well....
they no longer post here....
the rack install IF DONE RIGHT, is just as good as anything out there, my rack on concrete with no power assist and 255/50/17 on the front, will not move the frame with the cross support in place...
been on the car some ten years, with maybe 1/4th the mounting steel parts most guys use....it's a matter of common sense, not rocket science...
I got very lucky in finding a NEW to the car rack off a '92 Grand Am....
it was very clean, with engine missing....it was kinda like finding a gold pebble on the beach....
really the thing is a simple install, just have to have some small engineering background and some common sense...
of course, if my welder buddy didn't exist, the project would not have either....the welding is grenade proof....
Age 68 here, seen more than one hotrod.....
they no longer post here....
the rack install IF DONE RIGHT, is just as good as anything out there, my rack on concrete with no power assist and 255/50/17 on the front, will not move the frame with the cross support in place...
been on the car some ten years, with maybe 1/4th the mounting steel parts most guys use....it's a matter of common sense, not rocket science...
I got very lucky in finding a NEW to the car rack off a '92 Grand Am....
it was very clean, with engine missing....it was kinda like finding a gold pebble on the beach....
really the thing is a simple install, just have to have some small engineering background and some common sense...
of course, if my welder buddy didn't exist, the project would not have either....the welding is grenade proof....
Age 68 here, seen more than one hotrod.....
05-06-2012, 09:47 PM
#26
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Kalvin,
I admire you for your tenacity and ingenuity, but you've really just used an inferior design for your conversion. General Motors spent millions designing a steering system that was strong, gave good road feedback and had features such as a good turning circle and no bump steer.
All of the above are at best compromised, at worst lost, when you fit a R&P system that was designed for a totally different vehicle. The main reason that OEMs use R&P in their new cars is cost. By and large, a R&P is cheaper to manufacture than a worm & sector steering box and its associated idler arm, drag link and tie rods.
Plus, for some reason, a R&P works better in a "front steer" application than a "rear steer" application. You have used a rear steer rack, although you don't have much choice as a front steer rack fitment would require major surgery to your chassis and welded in cross member.
Overall, your car would have steered better with a Borgeson steering box. Although based on a similarly proportioned box from another application, it is machined to be an exact replacement for the factory steering box. It also uses the GM Pitman arm, drag link and tie rods, etc. so that there is no bump steer and the full turning circle is retained.
aussiejohn
I admire you for your tenacity and ingenuity, but you've really just used an inferior design for your conversion. General Motors spent millions designing a steering system that was strong, gave good road feedback and had features such as a good turning circle and no bump steer.
All of the above are at best compromised, at worst lost, when you fit a R&P system that was designed for a totally different vehicle. The main reason that OEMs use R&P in their new cars is cost. By and large, a R&P is cheaper to manufacture than a worm & sector steering box and its associated idler arm, drag link and tie rods.
Plus, for some reason, a R&P works better in a "front steer" application than a "rear steer" application. You have used a rear steer rack, although you don't have much choice as a front steer rack fitment would require major surgery to your chassis and welded in cross member.
Overall, your car would have steered better with a Borgeson steering box. Although based on a similarly proportioned box from another application, it is machined to be an exact replacement for the factory steering box. It also uses the GM Pitman arm, drag link and tie rods, etc. so that there is no bump steer and the full turning circle is retained.
aussiejohn
Last edited by pewter99; 05-07-2012 at 05:46 AM. Reason: hostility removed
05-06-2012, 10:09 PM
#27
Drifting
Aussiejohn, I think you over glamorize the C3 steering setup.
You're right, perhaps I do. What I am trying to convey though, is that the (factory) design is solid and has stood the test of time. It is not up to today's standards, but it gives reliable, if less than ideal, performance.
"It isn't any different than any other GM car from the time."
Quite true, even Australian Holdens from the mid fifties to the late seventies had a similar set up, and their steering was pedestrian, at best. However, they have lasted safely for decades and it was radial ply tyres that started to make Holdens handle better.
"I've given you plenty of hints on what I've done and I was sure you would have figured it out by now ...."
I certainly have and I am not knocking you. Seriously! What I did was ask questions about why you went this way and you have answered them to my satisfaction.
".....but I'll give you one more hint: I only changed the "engine" and not the "transmission." This is why it should be safe and have no more bump steer than it did when it came from the factory. "
Provided the inner tie rod pivot points are in the same position as the factory ones and the whole system is mounted securely, then of course it will be as you described.
"The secret is; "How to hook up the different engine to the transmission?" That you'll have to wait for!
You're right, perhaps I do. What I am trying to convey though, is that the (factory) design is solid and has stood the test of time. It is not up to today's standards, but it gives reliable, if less than ideal, performance.
"It isn't any different than any other GM car from the time."
Quite true, even Australian Holdens from the mid fifties to the late seventies had a similar set up, and their steering was pedestrian, at best. However, they have lasted safely for decades and it was radial ply tyres that started to make Holdens handle better.
"I've given you plenty of hints on what I've done and I was sure you would have figured it out by now ...."
I certainly have and I am not knocking you. Seriously! What I did was ask questions about why you went this way and you have answered them to my satisfaction.
".....but I'll give you one more hint: I only changed the "engine" and not the "transmission." This is why it should be safe and have no more bump steer than it did when it came from the factory. "
Provided the inner tie rod pivot points are in the same position as the factory ones and the whole system is mounted securely, then of course it will be as you described.
"The secret is; "How to hook up the different engine to the transmission?" That you'll have to wait for!
If the end result is as you hope for, then this will give all Corvette owners another option when they want to upgrade their steering.
I know I'm biased, but what I was doing was to point out that there is a tried and true alternative to the factory steering box that was made by an almost century old OEM steering component supplier that bolts straight in and has a substantial warranty. It is not overly expensive, compared to some of the alternatives available. Some Corvette owners out there might consider that it is better to go this way than to experiment with something "foreign" and it is in their interest that they should be made aware of the alternatives.
If it was not for individuals like mrvette and yourself who think outside the square, then the hobby would be the poorer. Everything can be made better, because OEM stuff is made to a price in many cases. As long as a part meets or just slightly exceeds the design parameters, then it is put into production. That leaves a huge opening for the experimenters. I just hope that what they manufacture is safe.
Good luck and I'm waiting for the results.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
