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Motor Oil "Wear Test" and "Lab Test" Data

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Old 08-26-2012, 06:07 PM   #41
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If I may suggest - someone could simply email Brad Penn and simply get an answer

When I contacted oil companies to ask about their racing oils, they noted that as they didn't need to be concerned about emissions they could put together a very strong additive package...but that the package wouldn't last, and wasn't intended to deal with varnish, etc. that can come from start-and-stop cycles. All of them recommended a change interval of...wait for it...approximately 500 miles if running gasoline, and "after each event" if running any fuel additives at all. The oils were designed for a purpose, and it wasn't street driving.

This applied only to oils that were clearly labeled for racing use. I didn't contact Brad Penn as I didn't see that they had a "racing" oil.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:31 PM   #42
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Post 32 had a link to the Brad Penn website, it looks like it was changed 10 minutes later to another link, I am curious why the link to Brad Penn site was removed ? As long as someone says it's a racing oil and needs to be changed every 500 miles I am here

Let the googling commence
I did not delete a link to Brad Penns site. There is a link to a letter from Ken Tyger, still there. Racing oil has a different additive package, This goes along with your comments regarding diesel oil, use it in diesels, motorcycle oil, use it in motorcycles. Racing oils are generally not formulated to run for extended mileage and are formulated with fewer detergents, antioxidents and corrosion inhibitors. As I said for the third time now Brad Penn is good oil and I don't know the most recent formulation, additive package or any other information on it. If it is no longer available as a "racing oil" as stated in Ken Tyger's letter and the additive package has been revised to extend oil change intervals to 3000 miles I apoligize. No need to get your panties in a bunch. I am done with this.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:22 AM   #43
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I did not delete a link to Brad Penns site. There is a link to a letter from Ken Tyger, still there. Racing oil has a different additive package, This goes along with your comments regarding diesel oil, use it in diesels, motorcycle oil, use it in motorcycles. Racing oils are generally not formulated to run for extended mileage and are formulated with fewer detergents, antioxidents and corrosion inhibitors. As I said for the third time now Brad Penn is good oil and I don't know the most recent formulation, additive package or any other information on it. If it is no longer available as a "racing oil" as stated in Ken Tyger's letter and the additive package has been revised to extend oil change intervals to 3000 miles I apoligize. No need to get your panties in a bunch. I am done with this.
I agree that racing oil is for racing cars, the thing that bothers me is you classified Brad Penn as a racing oil when in fact it is probably about the same oil you use in your car(s) that being a normal or high performance oil with a detergent level adequate for any vehicle.
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:01 AM   #44
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I agree that racing oil is for racing cars, the thing that bothers me is you classified Brad Penn as a racing oil when in fact it is probably about the same oil you use in your car(s) that being a normal or high performance oil with a detergent level adequate for any vehicle.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=brad+pe...il&FORM=HDRSC1 Brad Penn Racing oil is available all over the web. It is clearly labeled Racing oil on the front of the bottle. Apparently they make Racing oil and High performance oil. My builder has a pallet of the Racing oil. I don't buy it so how would I know? Do you see where the confusion comes from?

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Old 08-28-2012, 08:59 PM   #45
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I run a flat tappet style and have always put a zdp additive at oil changes prob 1800-2400 miles it sits a lot but this is what my hot rod shop suggested ???????? It's aprox 450 hp w/prob max 4000 miles on motor what should I run in it ??????
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:15 PM   #46
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Oops sorry about the dup!
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:30 PM   #47
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I run a flat tappet style and have always put a zdp additive at oil changes prob 1800-2400 miles it sits a lot but this is what my hot rod shop suggested ???????? It's aprox 450 hp w/prob max 4000 miles on motor what should I run in it ??????
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If you use a flat-tappet cam run an oil from this list or another oil you're sure has at least 1000 ppm ZDDP. No additives (other than for break-in), no diesel oils, no racing oils and no miracle cures - just the right oil. For break-in run any oil from the list plus a break-in additive, or use one of the specialized break-in oils.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ppet-oils.html

The OP of this thread will have a different perspective
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:46 AM   #48
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My friend has this label on his Brad Penn oil. Apparently a marketing ploy as how many need Racing Oil, or it like the Type R Hondas the racing oil will make your car go faster

Anyway they have a detergent level for any car and it seems they changed their label to reflect that.

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Old 09-03-2012, 10:31 AM   #49
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What about using plain old Mobil 1 Synthetic and adding ZDDP Additive from Summit or the GM Flat Tappet Additive? Is that much different that seeking out these pre-blended ZDDP oils?
Sorry, I am adding my $0.02! This is what I have been doing the last two years. Mobil 1 5W-30 with Trick Flow, Eastwood (or whatever is on sale) ZDDP additive. I change the oil every 5,000 miles and use either K&N or Mobil 1 filters. Same thing for my daily driver truck (minus the additive).

I had my first job in a machine shop while in high school where I built a 420 HP 350 for my Chevelle with a flat-tappet hydraulic cam. From 1994to 2002, I put over 110,000 miles on the car before selling it. It was my daily driver and weekend strip car. The next owner had the car for two years before I lost track of it. I used Castrol GTX conventional oil with no additives, changed every 3,000 miles. That engine never had a single issue.

I did change over to Mobil 1 oil in 2001 after sailing on a ship (as a mechanical engineer) where I changed the ship's air compressors that ran 24/7 over to Mobil 1 from a conventional Exxon/Esso product. I was amazed that the compressors ran much quieter and cooler, and the maintenance intervals doubled or tripled.

I do not know exactly when the ZDDP levels in automotive motor oils dropped, but I think the bottom line here is that if you break in an engine properly, use a good quality oil and a zinc additive, a good filter, and do regular oil changes, the difference of one vs. the other is negligible when it comes to longevity. If you are looking to squeeze some extra high-RPM horsepower out of a race engine, that is a whole different topic. Sometimes, we humans tend to overanalyze things!
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:30 AM   #50
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I do not know exactly when the ZDDP levels in automotive motor oils dropped
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ppet-oils.html

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In 1993 API SG reduced reduced the minimum to 1200 PPM, and it was reduced again to 1000 PPM with the SL specification. A broad wave of flat-tappet camshaft failures started in 2004 following introduction of API SM and ILSAC GF-4 oil specifications which set a maximum of 800 PPM and a minimum of 600 PPM P for grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30.
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Summary: If you use a flat-tappet cam run an oil from this list or another oil you're sure has at least 1000 ppm ZDDP. No additives (other than for break-in), no diesel oils, no racing oils and no miracle cures - just the right oil.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:40 PM   #51
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Sorry, I am adding my $0.02! This is what I have been doing the last two years. Mobil 1 5W-30 with Trick Flow, Eastwood (or whatever is on sale) ZDDP additive. I change the oil every 5,000 miles and use either K&N or Mobil 1 filters. Same thing for my daily driver truck (minus the additive).

I had my first job in a machine shop while in high school where I built a 420 HP 350 for my Chevelle with a flat-tappet hydraulic cam. From 1994to 2002, I put over 110,000 miles on the car before selling it. It was my daily driver and weekend strip car. The next owner had the car for two years before I lost track of it. I used Castrol GTX conventional oil with no additives, changed every 3,000 miles. That engine never had a single issue.

I did change over to Mobil 1 oil in 2001 after sailing on a ship (as a mechanical engineer) where I changed the ship's air compressors that ran 24/7 over to Mobil 1 from a conventional Exxon/Esso product. I was amazed that the compressors ran much quieter and cooler, and the maintenance intervals doubled or tripled.

I do not know exactly when the ZDDP levels in automotive motor oils dropped, but I think the bottom line here is that if you break in an engine properly, use a good quality oil and a zinc additive, a good filter, and do regular oil changes, the difference of one vs. the other is negligible when it comes to longevity. If you are looking to squeeze some extra high-RPM horsepower out of a race engine, that is a whole different topic. Sometimes, we humans tend to overanalyze things!
540 rat did test the zddp additives as well. They dropped the film strength 30% if I remember correctly. Oils are formulated so the additive package works together as a unit. Adding your own concoction affects the additive package negatively. You might have enough ZDDP but you just affected the other properties and interactions of the additive package. Best off buying the right oil with correct amounts of the additives you need already in it. Price is no more than mobil 1 + zddp.
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:10 PM   #52
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540 rat did test the zddp additives as well. They dropped the film strength 30% if I remember correctly. Oils are formulated so the additive package works together as a unit. Adding your own concoction affects the additive package negatively. You might have enough ZDDP but you just affected the other properties and interactions of the additive package. Best off buying the right oil with correct amounts of the additives you need already in it. Price is no more than mobil 1 + zddp.
Good point!
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:32 PM   #53
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Default Break-In Oil “Wear Test” and “Lab Test” Data

The info is too long to post here, so if you'd like to see it, go here:

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32471
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:50 PM   #54
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"Too long to post here." Hilarious.

I love the conclusion that since factory engines are broken in with SM/SN oils - none of which have flat-tappet cams - that "Now, we have seen that engines, even High Performance flat tappet engines, are commonly broken-in with NO issue, using any of the various "minimal wear protection" oils mentioned above. They don't have ring seating issues, nor do they generally have lobe/lifter issues."

Once again - a conclusion that is not supported by the facts - even in your own post. Did you talk to a single engine builder about your recommendation that a break-in oil with high ZDDP is not required?

And again - have you contacted Pennzoil or a single flat-tappet cam manufacturer to support your conclusions from single aspect, non-standardized, non-audited testing?
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:19 PM   #55
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These long posts have been on Speedtalk too. This is just the most recent. Many of the posters there have the same issues with drawing conclusion B from test A. Improper testing protocol for the conclusion drawn. Film strength testing, antiwear additive testing and extreme presure additive testing require 3 different procedures. Even then the results of these tests on new oil will vary drastically from testing the same oil with 1,2 or 3000 miles on it. Viscocity breakdown and ZDDP depletion are not addressed, Neither is the sacrificial film layer deposited in extreme pressure environments long term. This test is a test of the film strength of new oil at 230 degrees period. It has validity if taken as a film strength test. It has no bearing on either extreme pressure additive testing or long term flat tappet cam protection testing.
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:13 AM   #56
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I also consulted a number of other Engineers about my protocol and results. And not one single Degreed Engineer had any concern about what I did. The only folks who've ever questioned what I've done with my oil testing, is unqualified Hotrodders and Racers. So, that speaks volumes.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...art=90#p376742

"I would like to begin by stating unequivocally that the test utilized for comparison of the different motor oils is NOT an industry accepted test and has not been peer reviewed or validated by any certification body such as American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM), American Petroleum Institute (API) or the American Chemistry Council (ACC). Therefore, I do not consider the test data valid. I should note that non-ASTM associated bench tests are not the most reliable indicators of field performance.

Additionally, I think the primary concern I had with the information is that one cannot effectively measure “load carrying capacity/film strength” in a 30 second test that is NOT considered a standard industry test with the rigorous inter-laboratory round robin studies needed to generate the measurement system precision statements. The gold standard to evaluate the different lubricants would be controlled engine testing in which cam lobe loss is measured as well as piston ring loss. The API Service Category SM and the latest SN oils listed contain friction modifiers (friction modifiers are added in API SM & SN oils for fuel economy benefits) which are one reason why they might perform better in a 30-second “break-in” period. It is my opinion that a 30-second test is not a proper performance test of the load-carrying capacity of a lubricant in boundary lubrication regimes. "

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...art=15#p387897

"This is from a Certified Lubrication Specialist when I showed him the results "I appreciate this guys desire to tell the truth, but his test method is completely wrong. Motor oils are formulated to run in actual motors. Not on bearing testers."

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Modern low zinc oils have been used to break-in brand new high performance factory engines for decades. GM and many imports have used full synthetic low zinc Mobil 1, and Ford has used full synthetic Motorcraft in their Ford GT Sports Cars as well as their current Supercharged Shelby GT500 Mustangs. Both of these oils have tested out to provide outstanding wear protection, yet the engines always break-in just fine, and of course they also have a complete factory warranty.
None of which have flat-tappet cams - so once again, you draw a conclusion that is simply not supported by the facts - even your own.

Have you contacted Pennzoil yet (7th time asking) regarding your recommendation of their product for flat-tappet cam engines? I would think that an SAE Member Engineer could certainly get to the engineers - as I did as "just a guy" in the oil and cam companies after a few polite emails.

Last edited by billla; 09-10-2012 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:58 AM   #57
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Interesting info. The last flat tappet engine car that I owned was my '85 Corvette. I put 142,000 miles on that car and the engine still ran fine when I sold it. I can't remember what oil I used in it, but it wasn't synthetic and definitely wasn't diesel. I'm not up on all of the data that everyone is providing, but there's one thing that's certain, today's oils are engineering marvels compared to the stuff sold years ago. Keep the info coming.
Your right that oil has changed since 1985 but its changed to be better suited to newer engines and emissions standards..For one thing it contains less ZDDP as most here know is needed to prevent premature wear on the flat tappet cams... also there is a lot of marketing hype these days.....
Something I found interesting is Kendell oil is now essentially Brad Penn.... they are one of my customers and are located on kendell Ave at the old kendell oil refinery in Bradford Pa and the "unique green oil" found in nearby wells is used by them.
The Kendell name was sold to a company from the middle east as far as I was told....and like autolite and even Levis jeans the name is likely used to push inferior foreign knockoffs made by outside contractors.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:05 AM   #58
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Guys, I agree with everyone's concerns and opinions. I am sticking with the Pennzoil 25w50 racing oil for the Hemi. It was built by one of the most pre eminent Hemi experts in the country, Larry Shepard. He worked directly with Tom Hoover, father of the Hemi at Chrysler. He has been building and rebuilding Hemi's for 35 years. He does it all including his own machine work. Nothing is sent out. He told me that the only oil he uses is Pennzoil 25w50 racing oil AND adds to that a bottle of ZDDP additive to every oil change. He guarantees his engines if these products are used. I am not going to argue with the master. He has been doing this long enough that he must know what he is talking about and why.

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Old 09-29-2012, 10:28 AM   #59
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Here is one for you to ponder. In addition to my 67 BB Corvette, I have a 1967 Hemi GTX. The well known individual that rebuilt the motor puts nothing but Pennzoil 25w50 in all his Hemi motors and that is all he recommends. That is a natural oil that has 2800+ ppm zinc and 2400+ ppm phosphorous. Look it up.
My humble apologies. I grossly mispoke. I called Pennzoil and spoke to their "tech
dept. I was told that the 25w50 racing oil contains 1800ppm Zn and that works ou to about 1500-1600ppm phosphorus.
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:40 PM   #60
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My humble apologies. I grossly mispoke. I called Pennzoil and spoke to their "tech
dept. I was told that the 25w50 racing oil contains 1800ppm Zn and that works ou to about 1500-1600ppm phosphorus.
A dedicated race car with really wide clearances and a huge solid flat tappet cam or the engine is just plain worn out would be the only reason I could see to even consider that thick of oil. That said it will cost you measurable horsepower, cause much more wear at cold startup, wear distributor, cam and oil pump gears faster, reduce cooling of internals due to the thickness and need to be changed in under 500 miles because of the racing oil additive package. Racing oils are designed for track use not street use.
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