MotorHead

Sooner or later everyone will clue in that Brad Penn oil will protect their daily driver's as well as race engines with no oil related failures.

After the big cam meltdown a few years back my friend that owns a race engine shop switched to Brad Penn and has never had a cam go flat or oil related failure since on hundred of motors. I am not putting a flame suit on, anyone can use whatever diesel or motorcycle oil they wish

Buttonhead

Here is one for you to ponder. In addition to my 67 BB Corvette, I have a 1967 Hemi GTX. The well known individual that rebuilt the motor puts nothing but Pennzoil 25w50 in all his Hemi motors and that is all he recommends. That is a natural oil that has 2800+ ppm zinc and 2400+ ppm phosphorous. Look it up.

billla

That's a racing oil - intended to be changed after every event or 500 miles max; the additive package isn't designed for street use or extended change intervals.

More ZDDP isn't better; 1,000 - 1,400 is sufficient for all but the most radical cams.

MotorHead

Ever try and pour 20W50 dino oil on a cold day, you can't even get it all out of the container, it is like molasses.

Something fishy about this oil, Penzoil racing oil "was" used by the Top Fuel teams and other Pro teams because it is not easily diluted by ethanol, methanol, or nitro methane fuels (read race oil )

Another interesting post I found from 1 year ago :

"I sent an Email to Pennzoil asking about the content of Zinc in their oil. Here is their reply:

Thank you for your interest in our products.
You are correct the zinc in the ZDDP package for motor oil additives has been reduced recently to help protect catalytic converters on today's vehicles. Basically any oils prior to the API SM (such as SL, SJ, SH, etc.) will have at least 1000ppm zinc.

The Pennzoil oils with an API SM rating will have the reduced zinc content (800-850ppm) while those such as the Pennzoil Outdoor Motorcycle Motor Oil in both SAE 10W-40 and SAE 20W-50 with the API SH will have 1100-1200ppm zinc. Other oils containing higher zinc levels will be any oil with a diesel rating, API CI-4 or CJ-4. The Shell Rotella SAE 15W-40 contains 1100-1200ppm zinc and Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil SAE 25W-50 has 1980ppm zinc., well that's close only about 1000ppm off
Sincerely

So where do we stand on this oil, absolutely no where

MotorHead

Not to rain on anyones parade:

Pennzoil 25W-50 GT Motor Oil offers maximum protection for competition engines. Available in three viscosity grades, it is recommended for supercharged, turbocharged and naturally aspirated engines that use racing gasoline or other exotic fuels (including methanol or nitromethane).

Compounded especially for racing engines
Specially formulated for Turbocharged gas or diesel.
Contains approximately 1200-1400 ppm zinc
Minimizes camshaft lobe wear on flat tappet cams
Maximizes obtainable horsepower.
Affords maximum bearing protection
Provides excellent piston ring sealing
Maintains oil pressure while resisting thinning
SAE 25W-50 provides outstanding low-temperature service when a proper low-RPM warm-up period is not possible.

So now we have racing oil that is anywhere from ~1000-3000 ppm zinc depending I guess if you buy it from Walmart or a Race engine shop, sorry doesn't pass the smell test

MotorHead

Also to add a little salt if you will, there could very well be detrimental affects to the motor with ZDDP levels well above 2000ppm

63mako

The problem is oil companies have proprietary additive packages. These additive packages change depending on testing and research, availability, price, day of the week or if it is going to rain next week. Seriously the Penzoil Racing 25W-50 might have 2800 PPM zinc or 1980 or 1200-1400 depending on when it was made or bought possibly different in different parts of the country.
Brad Penn oil testing showed around 800 PPM ZDDP in all the tests I could find 2-3 years ago. When the word got around and numerous emails bombarded them all of a sudden it has 1200-1400 PPM. There is that "Proprietary" additive package again.
That said why would anyone feel the need to run or recommend a 25W-50 racing oil in any street car?

MotorHead

I sent a sample of the Brad Penn oil that I use in my Vette (and to my knowledge the only variant of the oil they sell anywhere) to a lab and it came back with the same results or above as they advertise on their website.

Where did you get the 800ppm ? I got 1440 zinc and 1390 phos. from the independent lab. I can take a pic of the report and post it if you think I am FOS. Did they advertise their oil as have 800ppm and then changed that 1200-1400 because of emails ? Maybe you can dig up the 800ppm data you collected on the oil ? or put a link here ? I would like to see it.

63mako

Why does yours test @ 1440 and 1390 and others test @ 800-1000. You have a newer batch. There is the varying Proprietary additives list again. The additive proportions vary a lot on some manufacturer and many blame the testing labs for varying results. That said the Amsoil always tests within 5% on any test I have seen and they list their actual additive level of Z & P so that throws some doubt into the incompetent lab theory. Also shaking the container can make a difference. Some ZDDP additives drop out of suspension, some don't. Not good on cars that sit for extended periods of time.
bobistheoilguy.com Virgin oil analysis reports from 2006-2010. These were the only reports I could find at the time. I have done a lot of research on this since 2006 because I was one of the thousands of flat tappet cam fatalities. Wiped mine in 2006 on Rotella 15W-40 which I had been using for 25 years with no issues.
here are a few on Brad Penn which claims 1500 PPM ZDDP and always has, and some rotella which now has 1200 again.
.http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...49#Post1406749
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...35#Post1415835
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...44#Post1025144
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1452709&page=1
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...synthetic.html

63mako

I know you are a fan of Brad Penn oil and have had good luck with it. My Machinist used to use Rotella. Had a bad series of wiped cams at break in in the time before we realized the impact of reduced ZDDP. Changed over to Brad Penn about 5-6 years ago and had some similar issues. He builds big block truck and tractor pulling engines and they have big lift and crazy spring pressures, many have flat tappet cams. I helped him do some research on this early on in the reduced ZDDP era and the test results from Brad Penn came into play. There were numerous threads on a variety of forums with the same conclusions. Ken Tyger was involved in a lot of the discussion and they did say in 2006 the zddp levels were reduced because their base stock clings to parts better so higher levels of ZDDP were not needed. That was found to be a flawed assumption and Brad Penn now has the elevated levels they advertise. As you stated in this thread, they changed their formulation.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...en-bp-oil.html
The first post in this letter from Ken Tyger of Brad Penn may shed some light on this change. They have the racing oil and other oil. The Racing oil had 1200 PPM. The "other" oil was >.800 in Phos. 4 different 10W-30 oils with 3 different ZDDP levels and 2 different 20W-50 oils with 2 different ZDDP levels. Pretty confusing right?
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=221284

MotorHead

I don't know about what your guy uses or not and if he has had an oil related failure due to Brad Penn oil like you say, I doubt there is any proof of that.

I am not a Brad Penn fan, I am a fan of any oil that will not ruin my rather expensive motors. My friend changed to Brad Penn and that is all he uses and has told me the oil related failures have gone away, that and the fact he builds the motors for Peter Klutt of Legendary Motor Cars ( Dream Car Garage ) and his vintage big block Corvette that sees many miles of high RPM racing at the various tracks in North America I see enough to make me want to use it.

Like the Chassis Dyno thread, prove me wrong and I will apologize I never heard anyone say they were wrong in that Dyno thread when an expert on the subject chimed in and proved me correct, everyone disappeared. I said I would apologize if proved wrong apparently there are few here that will admit they are wrong.

I don't care what oil anyone uses, I happen to think/know Brad Penn will protect their motors, spending the money to prove to myself the level of ZDDP from an out of box sample. Use whatever you want but when I recommend Brad Penn I don't get any money for it, I feel the fellow member will have nothing to worry about if he uses it be it flat tappet or roller. Anyway I am going to the Zoo to watch the monkeys fling sh*t at each other

63mako

Not trying to prove you wrong or argue. Modern Brad Penn is not 2007 Brad Penn. My Machinist uses it also. He build mostly race engines as does your guy. It is a racing oil and a good one at that so those that use it need to be aware that it is very low in detergent levels and not designed to run 3000 miles between changes.

MotorHead

What level of detergent is good and how do you measure it. If you change your oil every 3,000 miles you will have no problems, I have been doing that for 5 years, it is classified as a "High Performance" oil meaning it has high levels of ZDDP just like the rest of the oils that are on the "Oil" sticky, they are not recommended for catalytic converters, so none of the oils on the list are suitable for a daily driver if they contain the same or more ZDDP or say more than 1000ppm.

I don't want to argue either, but I don't google (99% of the time ) info I use real world results as my basis for opinion. If your own engine builder uses it doesn't that kinda ring a bell that maybe it's good oil ? It seems every time I mention Brad Penn I get a negative comment, what do you use for oil ?

63mako

I said it is good oil. My Machinist builds racing engines and uses it. Racing oil is just that, racing oil. Not bad oil, just has an additive package designed for racing. Racing engines don't run the same oil for 3000 miles, likely a racing engine would never run oil over 500 miles or a month between changes so they don't require the detergents, antioxidents and corrosion inhibitors that a street oil additive package would have.
I use Amsoil AMO 10W-40, full synthetic, street use, 1378 Zinc, 1265 phos. They do have a 20W-50 street oil fully synthetic called ARO with similar levels and 15W-50 fully synthetic racing oil with 1424 phos, 1575 zinc. They also have a Z-rod fully synthetic street oil 10W-30 or 20W-50 that has 1320 phos and 1440 zinc that is designed for cars that sit a lot. Has higher levels of corrosion inhibitors and good detergent levels. Modern additive packages are custom designed for the intended use and application. If you are happy with the Brad Penn racing oil that is great, use it. I like the oil I use and feel it is specifically suited to my needs, clearances, intended use and the cost is not prohibitive.
So good so far.
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/am..._high_zinc.htm

MotorHead

Can a real link to fact be posted, that link says nothing about a detergent package I even opened there PDF file and couldn't find it. I don't need someones opinion of the detergent "package" in Brad Pen oil that tells me it is not good for street use, I am not talking about a daily driver just would like to know where it says I have to change it after going around the block a couple of times.

Also I would like to compare the detergent levels of Amsoil AMO 10W-40. Sometimes fact and fantasy get mixed up possibly mis-leading others that need to see where it says "Race Use Only as it does not contain the detergent levels for daily use". Also Amsoil AMO 10W-40 is not good for any car with catalytic converters either. As it is well known that for daily drivers high ZDDP is probably OK for cars without catalytic converters but not good for cars with catalytic converters.

I am looking forward to factual data not something googled. Thankyou

Like I said I would like to see facts on detergent levels so forum members can make up their own minds. I put at least 3,000 miles on Brad Penn 20W50 between oil changes and I have the intake off more than once a year and my motor is clean as whistle and runs like a clock. So I for one would like to see some facts on the detergent level in the oil. Some clear evidence is what is needed to make a determination whether one particular oil is OK to run in there car. There are many "opinions" on the net.

BTW the Brad Penn semi-synthetic 20W50 oil I use is called High Performance, not racing oil:
BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils also contain highly effective detergent and dispersant additives to guarantee exceptional engine cleanliness as well as oxidation and foam inhibitors that offer protection against thermal degradation and air entrainment.

LS4 PILOT

I can vouch for Amsoil and his comments. I use this oil in my old Heavy Duty Ford I-6 300ci motor , an old school design . The engine has never sounded or ran better , depite the 200,000 miles and heavy loads . I also run this 10w-40 Amsoil in my old 350CI Z28 motor.

Amsoil = good stuff.

63mako

I have no idea what Brad Penns current oil formulation or additive package is. Don't know if they still sell racing oil and high performance oil. I do know they used to have 4 different 10W-30 and 2 different 20W-50 (see link above). The manufacturers change labels and additive packages on an ongoing basis. Racing oils have additive packages for short duration between changes. High Performance oil may be fine for 3000 mile intervals. You like Brad Penn oil. Use it, recommend it I really don't care. I don't recommend "racing oil" for street engines, Some use it, I don't. If yours has correct additive levels fot 3000 mile oil changes that is great. Your best bet is do a VOA upon purchase and a UOA at 3000 miles and see if it is what you want. Even then you don't know if the next batch has an identical additive package. I have done a VOA and UOA on the Amsoil I recommend. I know it is solid with a great additive package and I have run 10,000 on my Colorado and Aveo with the 5W-30 and UOA shows great protection and go ahead and run it but I change it @ 10,000. The Vette gets 10W-40 and oil changes @ 3000 miles.

MotorHead

The label hasn't changed I will take a picture of the Brad Penn oil I bought last year, it says High Performance. I take issue when any forum member steers other members away from a perfectly good motor oil for today's engines based on his/ her "opinion" of what she/he thinks is correct.

Like I said I would like to see from anyone the same detergent statement from Amsoil I feel it is a great disservice to the forum for anyone to pick out a part, piece of equipment or oil when they have no evidence to prove the part,piece of equipment or oil is in fact detrimental to the life and longevity of their prized possessions.

Anyone telling the general forum that Brad Penn oil needs to be changed every 500 miles should in my opinion have some factual evidence that this is true. Other wise if it were me I wouldn't post such information because unless I know the facts, I don't post.

MotorHead

There's probably twice as many that will vouch for Brad Penn, like I said it's like being in a room full of engineers and everyone has their opinion and their opinion is always right. Going back to all the mathematics some members were showing me that it was impossible to measure/ calculate HP without TQ on a chassis dyno, I think I will bring that one back to the top

For some reason no one on this forum apologies or admits they are wrong at least I am not in that group, prove me wrong and I learned something and will apologize and say I am wrong

MotorHead

Post 32 had a link to the Brad Penn website, it looks like it was changed 10 minutes later to another link, I am curious why the link to Brad Penn site was removed ? As long as someone says it's a racing oil and needs to be changed every 500 miles I am here

Let the googling commence