New Borgeson still some wandering
10-10-2015, 01:24 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
New Borgeson still some wandering
I installed a new borgeson steering box along with a new hydroboost. The hydroboost works great, not problems. However the borgeson steering still wanders a bit when driving. Here's the details.
'76 Coupe with entire front end rebuilt about 4-5 months ago. All new bushings, tie rod ends, etc. Removed everything and had it all cleaned, powdercoated and replaced.
Installed a strut brace about 2 months ago
After installation of borgeson, which included a new power steering pump the steering feels much better than stock, however, when driving down the road I still have to constantly adjust right to left as the car tends to wander. Not as bad as before but for what I paid for this upgrade it shouldn't do it at all.
I raised the front end and had my wife move the steering wheel back and forth about 3/4" each way. The steering shaft along with the rag joint and the shaft going into the steering box. However, the Pitman arm does not move until the play in the steering wheel reaches about an inch each way. Is there something I am missing or and adjustment on the box that I need to make? I read somewhere that It requires about 500 miles before everything works as it should. At the rate I drive it would take me a couple months to go that far. I bled the system multiple times. In fact I disconnected all of the hoses, removed the power steering pump and put a new pulley one it - the old one was slightly bent from trying to remove it from the old pump - then bled the system again but still have the same wandering I had before.
Any solutions? Appreciate any help
Thanks
Barry
P.S. I had a complete new front end alignment done yesterday but that didn't seem to help much with the wandering.
'76 Coupe with entire front end rebuilt about 4-5 months ago. All new bushings, tie rod ends, etc. Removed everything and had it all cleaned, powdercoated and replaced.
Installed a strut brace about 2 months ago
After installation of borgeson, which included a new power steering pump the steering feels much better than stock, however, when driving down the road I still have to constantly adjust right to left as the car tends to wander. Not as bad as before but for what I paid for this upgrade it shouldn't do it at all.
I raised the front end and had my wife move the steering wheel back and forth about 3/4" each way. The steering shaft along with the rag joint and the shaft going into the steering box. However, the Pitman arm does not move until the play in the steering wheel reaches about an inch each way. Is there something I am missing or and adjustment on the box that I need to make? I read somewhere that It requires about 500 miles before everything works as it should. At the rate I drive it would take me a couple months to go that far. I bled the system multiple times. In fact I disconnected all of the hoses, removed the power steering pump and put a new pulley one it - the old one was slightly bent from trying to remove it from the old pump - then bled the system again but still have the same wandering I had before.
Any solutions? Appreciate any help
Thanks
Barry
P.S. I had a complete new front end alignment done yesterday but that didn't seem to help much with the wandering.
10-10-2015, 01:34 PM
#2
Team Owner
I will ASSume the rag joint is solid, and not loose on either end and the rubber part is totally intact.....after that, jack up the front end, wheels entirely off the ground, and with engine off, turn the wheel from side to side all the way, and see there is no binding/hard spots.....after that put wheels straight up, and see that you do NOT feel the box engaging with the same sort of slop, if you do, look at box, aluminum cover place, large screw with jamb nut loosen jamb nut by several turns, keeping screw in same position.....AS I RECALL you want to pull the screw OUT/counterclockwise a about 1/4 to 1/2 turn, then snug up the nut, and try the steering that there is NO binding in full range....see is that snugged up the on center feel as above checking for play.....
after that, I can't help....sorry.....
after that, I can't help....sorry.....
10-10-2015, 02:25 PM
#3
Race Director
Do NOT adjust the lash screw on the box. It's a new box, it is set correctly.
You have two issues, not related to each other.
1) Slop in the steering. The first thing to check is that the box is on-center when going straight. All boxes have slop off-center (part of the design). It's easy to install a borgeson wrong as the lock screw on the borgeson rag-joint doesn't line up with the flat on the factory steering column shaft. To verify: Turn wheel lock-to-lock (with wheels off the ground). Then turn it back exactly half way. You'll notice slightly more effort is needed right on center and there's no slop. This has to be your straight-ahead position. Adjust rag-joint and tie-rods to make it thus.
2) Wandering. As long as all the bushings & ball joints are good, it's caused by insufficient caster angle. Factory alignment spec had very little caster. You want as much as the alignment shop can give you (2.5-3 dgrs or so). More is better. I have aftermarket upper control arms giving me 4.5 dgrs and the car is very stable. I can let go of the wheel and it goes straight.
You have two issues, not related to each other.
1) Slop in the steering. The first thing to check is that the box is on-center when going straight. All boxes have slop off-center (part of the design). It's easy to install a borgeson wrong as the lock screw on the borgeson rag-joint doesn't line up with the flat on the factory steering column shaft. To verify: Turn wheel lock-to-lock (with wheels off the ground). Then turn it back exactly half way. You'll notice slightly more effort is needed right on center and there's no slop. This has to be your straight-ahead position. Adjust rag-joint and tie-rods to make it thus.
2) Wandering. As long as all the bushings & ball joints are good, it's caused by insufficient caster angle. Factory alignment spec had very little caster. You want as much as the alignment shop can give you (2.5-3 dgrs or so). More is better. I have aftermarket upper control arms giving me 4.5 dgrs and the car is very stable. I can let go of the wheel and it goes straight.
10-10-2015, 02:38 PM
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
I have centered the box many times thinking that might be the issue. I am exactly at the half way point between stop to stop. The lockscrew didn't line up with with the flat spot when I installed it so I ground down a new flat spot where I set the screw. I don't know any other way to reset everything other than the way I've done it.
As for the castor, when I took it to the shop yesterday, I took the specs with me and told them that borgeson called for the caster to be set 2-3 degrees ahead. They said they set up as such so I don't know what I can do about it but I do know I can't drive down the road and remove my hands from the wheel for very long before it will wander off to one side or the other.
However, I'm still wondering why I have instant movement of all parts going into the box but the the Pitman arm takes more movement from the steering wheel before it moves??
As for the castor, when I took it to the shop yesterday, I took the specs with me and told them that borgeson called for the caster to be set 2-3 degrees ahead. They said they set up as such so I don't know what I can do about it but I do know I can't drive down the road and remove my hands from the wheel for very long before it will wander off to one side or the other.
However, I'm still wondering why I have instant movement of all parts going into the box but the the Pitman arm takes more movement from the steering wheel before it moves??
Last edited by BLDun; 10-10-2015 at 02:40 PM.
10-10-2015, 04:04 PM
#5
Race Director
Do you feel the box tightening when the steering wheel gets close to being on-center?
If there is slop in the box with it on-center it's a defective box.
If there is slop in the box with it on-center it's a defective box.
10-10-2015, 04:14 PM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
Yes I can feel the tightening when it get close to being on center. That's one of the indications that I know it's on center along with the rotation count. I don't know that I would call it slop that is in play here. It makes it sound like it moves much more than it does. If I jack up the front end with the wheels off the floor and make sure the box is centered, if I move the steering wheel ever so slightly the shaft, the rag joint and the shaft entering the box all move also. However the Pitman arm doesn't move at all until I move the steering wheel at least 3/4 of an inch. Should I start the card and try it? Will it make a difference in the output of the Pitman arm if the box has pressure in it?
10-10-2015, 05:59 PM
#7
Race Director
Hydraulic pressure makes no difference in slop.
Did the alignment shop give you a printout? If not maybe go back and ask for it. They should have given you one. It's very possible the only problem is that you don't have enough caster.
Did the alignment shop give you a printout? If not maybe go back and ask for it. They should have given you one. It's very possible the only problem is that you don't have enough caster.
10-10-2015, 06:07 PM
#8
Drifting
Swede is spot ON ! My BB 74 had the same issue after a complete rebuild including the Borgesen. I got a good Rear and Front alignment and the guy put about 2* of caster. It's like driving my Miata now! Good luck.
Do NOT adjust the lash screw on the box. It's a new box, it is set correctly.
You have two issues, not related to each other.
1) Slop in the steering. The first thing to check is that the box is on-center when going straight. All boxes have slop off-center (part of the design). It's easy to install a borgeson wrong as the lock screw on the borgeson rag-joint doesn't line up with the flat on the factory steering column shaft. To verify: Turn wheel lock-to-lock (with wheels off the ground). Then turn it back exactly half way. You'll notice slightly more effort is needed right on center and there's no slop. This has to be your straight-ahead position. Adjust rag-joint and tie-rods to make it thus.
2) Wandering. As long as all the bushings & ball joints are good, it's caused by insufficient caster angle. Factory alignment spec had very little caster. You want as much as the alignment shop can give you (2.5-3 dgrs or so). More is better. I have aftermarket upper control arms giving me 4.5 dgrs and the car is very stable. I can let go of the wheel and it goes straight.
You have two issues, not related to each other.
1) Slop in the steering. The first thing to check is that the box is on-center when going straight. All boxes have slop off-center (part of the design). It's easy to install a borgeson wrong as the lock screw on the borgeson rag-joint doesn't line up with the flat on the factory steering column shaft. To verify: Turn wheel lock-to-lock (with wheels off the ground). Then turn it back exactly half way. You'll notice slightly more effort is needed right on center and there's no slop. This has to be your straight-ahead position. Adjust rag-joint and tie-rods to make it thus.
2) Wandering. As long as all the bushings & ball joints are good, it's caused by insufficient caster angle. Factory alignment spec had very little caster. You want as much as the alignment shop can give you (2.5-3 dgrs or so). More is better. I have aftermarket upper control arms giving me 4.5 dgrs and the car is very stable. I can let go of the wheel and it goes straight.
10-10-2015, 06:30 PM
#9
Racer
Thread Starter
No print out other than the receipt. I'll go Monday and talk to them. They are the shop that does all the hotrods for the large collector/consignment place here so they come highly recommended. Maybe he can give me some useful info.
Thanks
By the way, I did not have the rear aligned when they did the front yesterday. Will that matter?
Thanks
By the way, I did not have the rear aligned when they did the front yesterday. Will that matter?
10-11-2015, 11:01 AM
#11
Safety Car
Have you checked to make sure everything is tight and your shaft is not worn where it connects to the steering box ..
10-11-2015, 07:50 PM
#12
Safety Car
My car does that too and I rebuilt the entire front end. It turns out my rear trailing arm bushing is going bad. Around town it's no problem but get out on the highway and she wanders. A good way to tell is on the gas off the gas. The car will twitch one way or the other when you lay on the gas and then do it the other way when you let off. Cruising has it floating all over at 70mph.
10-11-2015, 11:29 PM
#13
Team Owner
Where's AussieJohn on this one? The Borgeson box will always solve ALL steering problems...won't it?
Before suspecting the steering box, all of the steering linkages, knuckles, idler arm, rag joint, ball joints, etc, etc. need to be evaluated and repaired/replaced. Then, the front wheels need to be aligned properly, assuring that there is a little 'toe-in' on them so that the car won't "hunt". (which is what your car is doing)
Before suspecting the steering box, all of the steering linkages, knuckles, idler arm, rag joint, ball joints, etc, etc. need to be evaluated and repaired/replaced. Then, the front wheels need to be aligned properly, assuring that there is a little 'toe-in' on them so that the car won't "hunt". (which is what your car is doing)
10-11-2015, 11:37 PM
#14
Racer
Thread Starter
As stated in the original post the entire front end suspension has been replaced and/or rebuilt within the last few months. The front end was aligned this past Friday. I am heading back to them tomorrow to get a print out of the actual specs!!
10-12-2015, 10:36 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
I have 20K on a Borgeson in the last 6 years. This a list of problems that I solved to get the best driving C3.
Rag joint.
Lower steering column bearing.
Rear suspension.
Rear strut rod
Trailing arm bushings.
Alignment by a corvette shop.
The Corvette shop keep pointing out my problems, winch I fixed myself.
Rag joint.
Lower steering column bearing.
Rear suspension.
Rear strut rod
Trailing arm bushings.
Alignment by a corvette shop.
The Corvette shop keep pointing out my problems, winch I fixed myself.
10-12-2015, 10:50 AM
#16
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for the list Mikep3.
- Rag joint is new
- Haven't checked steering column bearing
- I haven't done anything to the rear suspension since purchase. I redid the front first so
looks like I'm going to have to pay attention to the rear .
I checked with the alignment shop today and got a print out. The caster is set at 2.9 on one and 3.3 on the other. Said that was all he could get on them before he ran out of room.
- Rag joint is new
- Haven't checked steering column bearing
- I haven't done anything to the rear suspension since purchase. I redid the front first so
looks like I'm going to have to pay attention to the rear .
I checked with the alignment shop today and got a print out. The caster is set at 2.9 on one and 3.3 on the other. Said that was all he could get on them before he ran out of room.
10-12-2015, 11:05 AM
#17
my experience with wandering...
My 68 started wandering and it was quite hard to stay in a lane. Not sure what the heck was going on. I was about to start trying to figure it out when one of my rear tires went bad.... so I got 2 new rear tires. As soon as i drove away I noticed that all the wandering had ceased. There had been something wrong with one of my tires and as soon as replaced them it all straightened out.
Just something to consider. If nothing else you could rotate your tires to see if it affects the wandering.
Just something to consider. If nothing else you could rotate your tires to see if it affects the wandering.
10-12-2015, 11:39 AM
#18
Race Director
10-12-2015, 03:32 PM
#19
Team Owner
The shop specs may state that toe-in should be "neutral" (zero). But, your relatively light car with proportionally wider wheels with low weight-to-tire area ratio WILL wander, if the toe-IN isn't set to 1/16" to 1/8" (3/32" toe-IN is perfect).
If they are a good shop, they will know this. And, if they don't know this, just tell them to DO IT!!
If they are a good shop, they will know this. And, if they don't know this, just tell them to DO IT!!
10-13-2015, 11:33 AM
#20
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2001
Location: Katy (Houston) TX
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I agree with looking at the front toe-in. I recently installed the Borgeson as well and it wandered all over the place. Measured my toe and it was toe-out. Pulled them in to about a 1/8" toe-in and it is much better now.