Amelio

OK Fellas I am getting ready to pull the trigger on a rear build. I talked to Mike for a while last night (Thanks Mike for your time!) and I now need to decide on going with a Super 10 or a 12 bolt conversion. As some of you guys know the cost between the two is substantial.

As Mike explained many guys go the Super 10 route and it sounds like they have held up pretty good with a few exceptions but they failed due to inferior parts.

One of my problems is I run a 4 speed....I do leave on a line lock but still the drive line sees hard shock. I just broke an inner stub axle last month on a measly 3k launch. I don't plan on bonzai'ing the car out of the hole real hard but that could change All I know is I am about damn sick of breaking stuff and I am busting open the piggy bank. I just sold a project car just to pay for the rear.

I would like to hear from the guys that are running a super 10 and your setups. I would love to hear from the guys running a super 10 with a manual!

I also am looking toward the next year or two....the car may get a 427SB so I need to keep the power increase in mind.

All opinions and experience welcome!

pauldana

I would argue, the strongest and best Super 10 Mike has ever made:-) Cyro and Rem coated
650hp 427 road-raced C3

Copy and past from my threads first post::


https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-30spline.html

Ok... As some of you may know I started a thread asking what was the BEST ring and pinion... that was when I thought I popped it.... BUT, the Richmond Ring and Pinion was good... it was the Eaton carrier that was popped.... and the half axles were twisted....

Well, I knew I did not want to go through this again, and with my 650hp 427 it was going to happen over and over again until i do something different... So, I say out to do just this.

One of the first choices was to go to a 12 bolt by Toms... The problem I had with that is the 12 Bolt does not come in the 3.55 ratio that was best for my road racing which match my gearing well.... and i knew the 12 bolt was much heavier to spin up and pull down... Two things that were not acceptable to me... so, there's got to be another way...


So, I set out to build a SUPER 10 Bolt rear end... and here it is....


I will have to let Mike, tracdogg2 give most of the story of what the differences are and how different this rear end is...

My Boys, Danny and Chris, and I have assembled several rear-ends and it is a couple of hours job,,, thats for a standard rear-end,....... this was anything but standard. Mike had to do lathing milling and machine work to make all the larger pieces fit...like larger pin, larger half shafts, and more....

SOME of the differences are:
30 spline half shafts, as compared to 17 spline stock
larger half shafts
larger pin
all gears and all parts completely heat treated, not just tips
known strongest USA made ring and pinion US GEAR
ALL parts Cyro treated
ALL parts REM coated
All parts hand demurred and polished
heavy duty forged cap


Quote from Mike:
I have to admit the cryo did something to the metal. It is definitly denser and harder to cut compared to any other carrier.

Mike

He also stated to me that he had to slow down the lath to 25rpm, something he has never had to do, and went through 3 bits... as he usually never even goes through even 1... this is hard metal.





here are some pics, the first is a video, click it to watch.

2



3


4



5



6



7



8



9



10



11



12



13



14



15



16



Video:

69ttop502

I have the super 10 bolt, done by Van Steel in my 614 horse 69 with a manual transmission. I don't race the car but drive it very spirited although haven't done more than 3000 miles on it yet. Has held up well. I also went with the 1480 series half shafts on mine.

Bill

Amelio

thanks for the pics Pauldana, I have read through some of your posts before and Mike an I were talking about your setup last night.

I was gonna ask who did the cryo treating fo you? It sounds like it worked well.

I am not worried about the gearing choice with the 12bolt because I currently run 3.70 and may go 4.11 or 4.33 depending on which rear I go with.

You said you road race....have you done any hard launching?

pauldana

The Cyro and REM places are listed on my thread i posted above,,, And they are a big part of the process... Mike can tell you himself what a huge difference it made in the mettles and there strengths.

hard launching??? EVERYDAY I DRIVE HER!!!!

with me, its a Dr. Jekel and Mr. hyde thing... normal driver in every car I drive... until i get in her... then everything is a race:-)

Amelio

LOL that sounds like me! Everytime I get in mine the skinny pedal gets pegged multiple time and gears snatched! Glad to hear the super10 is holding up. I will look into the cryo treating and price that out.

I obviously do not want to spend money on a super10 build just to break it and then have to go to a 12 bolt. I want to do it right the first time.

You are using a 1350 kit correct?

tracdogg2

WHAT! You told me you only drive it TO the track.

Hehehehe, just kidding. I will admit your diff is my pride and joy.
Mike

tracdogg2

Amelio,
I didn't get the pics. I'll send you my email.
Mike

gkull

Amelio, I'm not sure why you are using a line lock to launch? Line locks are for doing a burn out. My inner yokes are the custom hardened and I've had them for 20+ years my outer are tom's.

427Hotrod

The whole trick is clutch management. You've got to have a clutch that gives a little or tires.

Super T-10's are pretty tough.

JIM

Amelio

That works Mike I'll send them to via email

Amelio

Well obviously I use it for burnout but when staging I engage the clutch a little bit to pre load the drive line. Then I let the clutch out when it's time to go.... Line lock holds me still to do this. My clutch does slip plenty to do this but 3 weeks ago maybe I used too much clutch and the inner stub said I don't like that with a large bang!

diehrd

Here is a question someone should have experience with


It is way different to say spirited street driving or with normal street tires hard launches because it is not even close to the hard take off you get at a drag race track.

On the track with a MT Street radial your gonna be at full stall or dumping the clutch in your power band and those tires should Bite in not spin and launch the car will all the power you can get to them. Axle twisting power , possibly lifting the front tires power.

In this situation how does the 10 bolt do .

69ttop502

In that situation with any kind of horsepower I would say the 12 bolt is the only way to go. You can buy some forgiveness with a slipper clutch like Jim said, but if you are hooking with big power, I would go 12 bolt and be done with it.

Patro46

Back in my day I learned how to launch with a stick pretty well. Now, it's an automatic with launch control. I kinds miss the old days....

Amelio

so here is a question....when breaking the rear what is typically broken the carrier correct? I dont see breaking one of Tom's axles. Or how often does the case break?

The reason I ask is....If I only broke the carrier and nothing else could I replace just the carrier and new bearings and be good to go? If so the cost to build a Super10 and break and replace a carrier is still cheaper than building a 12bolt????

Mike you could answer this I am sure.

KJL

tracdogg2

Good question.
The ideal situation would be if you exploded the 10 tooth spider gears. That would create the least amount of carnage. Breaking the carrier completely in half usually takes out everything except the case. By the time you fixed it all you would be at the same price as a 12 bolt.
Mike

pauldana

if my Super 10 was about $4000..... what does a 12 bolt run?

A few of the reasons I did not go 12 bolt was the extra rotating weight and mass, the extra weight in total, and the gear ratio selection.

Also, Mike... you machined my parts and did all the assembly, you know the extra hardness and strength through the Cyro and RIM process, as well as the larger parts used and there heat treating to begin with,,,

So, with that being said and taken into account, how much more power will a 12 bolt take over mine, and what is the price difference?
I have done research and the Super 10's without the extra work we put in are handling upwards or 800hp to my understanding.

tracdogg2

Hi Paul,
Apples to apples, equal number of new parts, the 12 bolt is around $1700 more.
I've seen 12 bolts handle 1500 rwhp and run mid 8's. I personally have never had one of my Super 10's blow up and most people are 600+ hp. With the new design Eaton carriers they are even stronger. The big concern with the 10 is how much shock it will handle.
I have no idea how much yours will handle.
Nearly all diff failures I have seen, excluding 65-69 small window carriers and stub axle breakage, has been caused by cap stretch and bad spider gear clearance. I am seeing more and more carriers cracking from fatigue in areas where they should not crack. So far this year I have had 4 diffs with spun bearing races on the left side bearing. Previous 10 years..... none.