454Luvr

Believe what you want, that combination of parts was the result of a significant amount of trial and error that included the stock QJ, a 780 vac sec, 850 DP, dual-plane Edelbrock, etc., etc. I used to wonder about the Torker myself, but there was something about that early manifold that just worked. The torque was HUGE, I broke three sets of rear wheel bearings in less than three years. No doubt a larger carb and different cam would have opened up the higher RPMs, but low- and mid-range was tremendous, and that's all I ever needed for street performance. At any speed below 100 MPH, that car could pull away from ALL the factory muscle cars of the day, including BB Shelbys and Chrysler hemis. The two cars I mentioned in my previous post weren't stock, both were much more radical (tunnel rams and the like). Incidentally, my launch sequence was to rev it up and drop it into drive. That's when the front would climb up.

427Hotrod

What happened to the 7/16" factory rods? They're pretty darn tough.

I have a buddy that ran a homebuilt 502 using a cast iron 454 crank etc with GM iron oval ports and a hyd roller. Sucker ran deep 10's all day long in a '68 Camaro. Now he worked on it a lot to get the most out of it...but it was dead reliable.

JIM

cv67

540 with 300+cfm heads that intake will kill it bigtime
saw you post thats what you want but theres NO way that thing will keep up have my doubts on the Qjet too

1000 isnt bad to take a stock hood and raise the bulge up some lots of work there. Know it all adds up and you want the stock? look but at a point youre really missing out on lots of power.
Havent seen a pancake DP in yrs but not sure how youd even port all the way through one;at a point a shorter runner length does what youll need

A single plane would take care of things much much better no need for a dual plane to pick up tq with a motor that large.

Motor on

c6silver

The crank dictates 6.385 rod length, unless I want to have the counterweights cut and tungsten added (to keep it internal balance)to them to run the shorter rods and I'd still have to re-size the factory 7/16 bolt rods, so it's cheaper to buy new.

c6silver

I've seen guys go 11s with LS5 cast iron intakes in a Chevelle, this intake is an aluminum version of that...and it's been heavily modified. I don't think it will be nearly as good as a really good (RPM or RPM Air Gap) intake, but I've seen enough F.A.S.T class guys go 10s and 11s with factory intakes as bad as these with Q jets on them (Buick and Pontiac guys)...

c6silver

If I could find a set of the special Victor Reinz gaskets that allow Mark IV heads on a GEN V block I'd sell the 4.250 crank, the 69 aluminum intake, and the Edelbrock aluminum heads and build an LS4 4.5" bore x 4.375 stroke with ported 049 ovals, big compression, the TH400, deep gears, AND the crappy Q jet and cast iron intake to go race F.A.S.T. class, I think that stock appearing stuff is the cat's azz... BUT it would suck on the street, high maintenance, etc... I want to actually drive the car and keep a stock-ish look and keep the factory systems intact.

454Luvr

In that case, you'll need all the CID you can get. The QJ and factory manifold are killers for street performance. Just so you know, I've also owned a '73 454, but mine was a 4-speed. Unlike my '72, it was bone stock, and it was a real dog. I have a pretty good understanding of where you want to go with this car, but I don't think the choices you're talking about will get you there. To each their own, but I'm pretty sure you're about to waste a helluva lot of money on parts and mods that simply won't do what you intend. Just the same, good luck with the build, I'm a BIG fan of the earlier C3s.

c6silver

F.A.S.T. rules allow only 560 CID for anyone but Ford (they get 600 or 604) and I'm aware that I'd NEVER spank a guy with a 69 L88 clone at 560 CID, the L88 has a better carb, intake, and heads, but the shortblock and exhaust systems are identical. My car has added weight too, which makes it a non-contender to win, but it would be fun to play.

c6silver

You're welcome to your opinion of course, but there are too many examples of Buick, Pontiac, and Olds guys going fast with factory intakes no worse than the Corvette ones and Q jets...

I can't see where a factory LS6 pancake intake and a Holley are any better. I have a friend that runs a shop and they put a ZZ502 into a '72 Corvette with an M21 and 3.55 gears. They kept the oval port aluminum heads, put the LS6 pancake intake on with the crate Holley carb and he said the car was "a rocket ship"...the ONLY reason they did that was because the owner wanted to use the Holley carb that came with the engine and he didn't want to replace his stock hood, I think a Q jet on a modified intake like mine would be just as fast and have better manners to boot.

A tricked out Q jet can flow 1000cfm, but it's too modified for everyday street use, so 850cfm is do-able, same as the crate Holley. Only issue I see with Q jet is fuel related.

In my case, I'd have more CID (540 vs 502), more compression (11:1ish vs 9.6), more head flow, and (hopefully) a more aggressive cam.

LS4s get a bad rap because the compression and camshaft are dogs, and the rear gears generally stink. Put 10.5:1 pistons in it, zero deck the block, bore it .060 while you're at it, put a better cam in, headers, port/big valve the 049 or 781 heads, trick out the carb and intake a bit, and you're as good/better (depending on componenet selection) than an LS5...or an LS6 to boot !

If I had the budget to do both, I'd build a 468 just like I described above, put it in my car with a deep first (2.74)gear switch pitch TH400 and 3.36 gears and go have fun before the 540 goes in...

427Hotrod

I know that part...I was back to just doing the 509 deal with original rods/crank and spending the cash for rods (and sell the 4.250 crank) for enough to do a HR combo.

But since you have the crank..and are buying pistons..and willing to do machine work for adapter...you're just rods from a 540. Just thinking a 509 with a better valvetrain will run at least as well as a 540 with lesser parts. Especially with wanting to run A/C etc.

You've got heads good enough for 650'ish HP at well under 6500 RPM and stupid torque....so it will be fun for sure even with choking on the intake side.

You might want to do a search here on "632C2". Steve Barker built a killer 540'ish engine disguised as a 427/435. Did lots of intake work, bored out Mopar carbs, ported exhaust manifolds and got 3" pipes mated to them along with some Dart heads (also disguised). Sucker made near 700 RWHP I think!

BTW...I love the F.A.S.T. stuff too as well as the regular Musclecar series. Just cool as heck!

JIM

c6silver

Jim, still no cam recomendation ?

My project MAY take a turn here...the friend that put the 502 in that other guy's '72 has the ZZ502 intake available (basically an oval port Performer RPM...NOT Air Gap), and a real Doug Nash 4+1 just fell in my lap for 1150 with the Long shifter and a Centerforce pressure plate, so that Holley 870 may end up on the car with a much better intake (and still fit under the stock hood with a drop base air cleaner)...we'll see how it shakes out.

IF these 2 things happen, I'll spend for a solid roller cam. I'm thinking Crane #138781, 296/304 ADV, 246/254@.050, .615/.636 on a 114, OR 138791, 304/312 ADV, 254/262 @ .050, .636/.636 on a 114...

427Hotrod

Still narrowing down what we're doing...things are still moving around some. Now we're talking solid roller!

Great deal on the Nash etc. Fun transmission combo. Makes highway cruising nice if you gear it that way. So what gears RPM are you planning with it if you get it? I ran 3.36's with mine. With the 427 it crossed line in 4th at 123'ish with a 4.13 final drive ratio. RPM range is going to play in cam choice.

Crane makes great stuff. Those are the street roller series and are relatively mild. Interestingly I've heard that first one and it's pretty thumpy in a 454 even with a 114 LSA. Speed of the lobes can really affect "real" overlap that you feel. Much more than you would expect with that small of a lobe.

Peak power with either of those is going to be 5600-6200'ish maybe range for those two I would expect.

With those heads, you're going to need a little duration to feed the cubes/stroke. I expect it's going to want a lot more exhaust split too with the heads at 62% I/E.

JIM

c6silver

Yeah, sorry the target is moving now...this stuff just kind of happens lol

If I get the Nash I'd be looking at 3.08s or maybe even 2.73s. The Nash has the 3.27 first, so a 3.08 is like having 4.56s in the car with an M21, 2.73s would be like 4.33s.

I'm going to move the target more now...lol...I have a chance to get some Edelbrock square port heads, I have an old Edelbrock C454 and a Dominator and I'm on the hunt (perpetually it seems) for an old Kinsler cross ram, IF I find the Kinsler manifold, all this stock stuff goes out the window. Car will get L88 flares and hood, I have an older complete Accel Gen VI EFI system I can put in the car. THAT would be my ideal...like a Greenwood race car for the street. Minilite 17s all around, between the L88 flares and the offset trailing arms I should be able to stuff some serious tire under the back.

c6silver

Jim, I'm REALLY interested to hear your thoughts on the Nash box...I've heard they don't shift well at all, is that set up/adjustments to clutch, shifter linkage, indicating in scatter shield, etc... or a design problem with the trans ? I remember Car and Driver magazine did an article back in the mid 80s about Gale Bank's twin turbo street going Pontiac Trans Ams with the Nash 5 speed, and he used a "modified early 60s Corvette shifter and linkage" on his cars, C&D commented that it was "the best shifting Doug Nash gearbox we've ever used"...that got me thinking, sent an email to Banks, haven't heard back yet...

cv67

Soldi roller bigger heads, crossram this is getting interesting.

c6silver

The cross ram deal is probably a fantasy, they're STUPID expe$ive...I'd be OK with an old Erndale setup, or Crower or Hillborn too, but the cross ram is just SO sexy LOL

ddawson

Wonder if that intake may be the GM 12363407 or 12363406. I'm told it comes on GM crate engines.

It's only 4.450" tall vs the
Performer @ 4.85"
Performer RPM @ 5.22"

I'm so tempted to try it over the LS6 pancake that I'm using now.

427Hotrod

I had one of the very last Nash's ever built. S&K told me it had to have been built on the last day of production going by serial number. I bought it out of a Trans Am show car that was just pushed in and out of a trailer..so it was essentially brand new.

You've heard correctly...they (and the Richmond) street versions don't shift as well as a well built Muncie..but they are OK. The synchros and slider assy's are essentially BW Super T-10 stuff...so that part isn't bad. It's really only 2nd gear that seems hard to bang. It will always go in gear at full throttle..you just have to pull pretty hard. The rest seem OK. I had a Hurst shifter which is nothing close to the Long version. The Long will do a lot better.

Two buddies had them too with same experiences. One in a '65 Vette with a nasty small block and the other in a '69 Nova big block.

One thing that helps is to have a longer shift handle. In a Vette that's pretty tough aesthetically wise. I always shortened them for a C-2 (C-3's can be longer) to make them look OK.

It held up strength wise very good through the 700+ HP range. Didn't like it when I started making over 800. 3rd gear would shear its teeth every time I went to the track it seemed. When it was under 800 HP I was using a Centerforce DF clutch and it worked great. But it couldn't hold 800+. I went to a McLeod Dual Disc setup with extra base pressure added when I got to that level. It NEVER slipped at all...I mean even with full throttle launches on slicks...so that was likely the biggest thing killing 3rd gear. I literally have videos of it catching a little air under the front tires on a 2-3 shift!

Stick cars need something to give a little..tires or clutch to keep from breaking things when you're making power.

I've now got a G-Force GF5R trans. Looks like a Nash/Richmond, but totally different inside. First, it's got straight cut gears and no synchros..so it's a "crashbox". The shift forks slide on two internal rails even though the shifter is external with arms. There's a "handcuff" assy to hold the shafts in addition to the same center bearing the Nash/Richmond uses too. My Long shifter was custom made by them by turning a Winston cup shifter (beefier everything) into a 5 speed, plus they added reinforcements to every place the linkage is curved. Sucker is stout and as smooth as butter.

JIM

427Hotrod

C454's are cool...much better than people expect. I've made 750'ish HP with one on a flat tappet 555" with it severely mismatched to the heads (it was swap meet stock!). It was within a few HP of a very very high $$$ professionally ported Vic Jr. A couple of hours with a grinder on the C454 would have at least evened the score.

Not sure the Edelbrock square ports are any better than the ported ones you have. I had a buddy with a set on his HR 540. Did a lot of testing...then had them ported and they did better..but way off what a 540 needed.

JIM

c6silver

Jim, I read the Bruiser articles...VERY impressive. I WISH you guys had broken out the die grinder, would have loved to see that dyno sheet !