Alternator Upgrade
The following users liked this post:
SH-60B (03-19-2017)
03-20-2017, 04:45 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
OP if you're still out there and still interested there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I've been busy last couple days so not computer time lately.
Some folks have a really, really hard time thinking outside the box.
They know only one way in which to acomplish a task and to suggest (gasp) any way that is not standard is surely unsafe, unwise, to just stupid in their minds. And as you can see they often turn to insults to secure their surely superior moral position.
Well I'm here to tell you that not all of us grew up with all the resources to simply buy whatever is needed to do the job "right".
Innovation has to be used some times. And innovators and there ways are an insult to the "only one way is right" club card holders.
Innovation is how things get done much of the time. I have been doing it all my life and huh? somehow still have all my digits, no scars from doing so and no accidents that can be attributed to it...ever.
But you got to be smart about it.
These guys have a point, as far as you cant throw potentially 144 amps at wiring that was designed for 63 amps.
But maybe you have the alternator in hand or maybe two and your 63 amp alt is toast? Or maybe you want better idle amperage but not more overall amperage. But you don't have the resorces to shell out $200 for an alternator and another $50 in wire and such.
Hence my solutions.
During this discussion I have assummed (yes risky) that the 3 wire system is being retained. And it is best to do so for your electrical system.
A one wire system serves really only to charge the battery and is not optimal for running accesories due to the fact that there is no remote voltage sensing. So the alternator only senses the voltage it's producing at the alternator lug and cannot adapt to the load put on the system by using various accesories such as fans, lights, and your ignition.
Now there is a thing called a "shortstop" It is a circuit breaker and you can buy a variant that automatically resets itself. So once it see's it's amperage limit it opens up. Then when it cools down it automatically resets. It's a thermal switch. Current flow makes it hot, too hot and it opens the circuit.
Unfortunately the max amperage rating for those is 50 amps. In my experience they can open early due to heat in the environment as well.
Here is one on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Cooper-...hXU81j&vxp=mtr
So it's not likely gonna work for your application.
However there is another type of auto resetting circuit breaker that can be used for a little bit more money and is rated for a higher temp environment.
http://www.allbatterysalesandservice...fm/4,3179.html
Or this one or similar on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buyers-Produ...JXhkkN&vxp=mtr
Either of these should work as crude current limiters.
If all of you consumable items in the car are below 60, maybe 55 amps for a cusion, then it should work.
If the rare occasion occurs that you run your battery down and you get a jump start and the battery wants more than the 60 amp limit then the breaker will pop and you'll have to wait till it resets in which case it will pop again if the battery is still demanding too much and carry on in that manner until the load is reduced.
Best case is to charge the battery or wait for a period of time as a battery can recover a little given the time to do so if it was recently run down.
Now the bonus is if you have a short in your battery you are not going to boil your electrolyte (acid) and you are not going to burn up the winding in your alternator or fry the diodes. Any of those is possible with a shorted plate in the battery. A battery can even explode under those conditions, it has happened.
Good luck
One more thing I should add is that even if you ran the stock alternator but always ran it near the limit you are going to encounter problems in the long run.
So If you run a 100 or 144 amp alternator and you are running right near 60 amps expect the same kind of problems. Things like wires getting hot, alternator getting hot (stock unit) and potentially failing, increased resistance in the wires due to heat and corrosion which will in turn create more heat and amperage draw. Generally speaking it's just like anything, run it near or to it's limit continuously and you reduce it's life span.
One suggestion that was probably valid is to set the trip amperage somewhat below the system amperage rating. 60 amps is 3 amps below, but 55 might be better.
Some folks have a really, really hard time thinking outside the box.
They know only one way in which to acomplish a task and to suggest (gasp) any way that is not standard is surely unsafe, unwise, to just stupid in their minds. And as you can see they often turn to insults to secure their surely superior moral position.
Well I'm here to tell you that not all of us grew up with all the resources to simply buy whatever is needed to do the job "right".
Innovation has to be used some times. And innovators and there ways are an insult to the "only one way is right" club card holders.
Innovation is how things get done much of the time. I have been doing it all my life and huh? somehow still have all my digits, no scars from doing so and no accidents that can be attributed to it...ever.
But you got to be smart about it.
These guys have a point, as far as you cant throw potentially 144 amps at wiring that was designed for 63 amps.
But maybe you have the alternator in hand or maybe two and your 63 amp alt is toast? Or maybe you want better idle amperage but not more overall amperage. But you don't have the resorces to shell out $200 for an alternator and another $50 in wire and such.
Hence my solutions.
During this discussion I have assummed (yes risky) that the 3 wire system is being retained. And it is best to do so for your electrical system.
A one wire system serves really only to charge the battery and is not optimal for running accesories due to the fact that there is no remote voltage sensing. So the alternator only senses the voltage it's producing at the alternator lug and cannot adapt to the load put on the system by using various accesories such as fans, lights, and your ignition.
Now there is a thing called a "shortstop" It is a circuit breaker and you can buy a variant that automatically resets itself. So once it see's it's amperage limit it opens up. Then when it cools down it automatically resets. It's a thermal switch. Current flow makes it hot, too hot and it opens the circuit.
Unfortunately the max amperage rating for those is 50 amps. In my experience they can open early due to heat in the environment as well.
Here is one on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Cooper-...hXU81j&vxp=mtr
So it's not likely gonna work for your application.
However there is another type of auto resetting circuit breaker that can be used for a little bit more money and is rated for a higher temp environment.
http://www.allbatterysalesandservice...fm/4,3179.html
Or this one or similar on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buyers-Produ...JXhkkN&vxp=mtr
Either of these should work as crude current limiters.
If all of you consumable items in the car are below 60, maybe 55 amps for a cusion, then it should work.
If the rare occasion occurs that you run your battery down and you get a jump start and the battery wants more than the 60 amp limit then the breaker will pop and you'll have to wait till it resets in which case it will pop again if the battery is still demanding too much and carry on in that manner until the load is reduced.
Best case is to charge the battery or wait for a period of time as a battery can recover a little given the time to do so if it was recently run down.
Now the bonus is if you have a short in your battery you are not going to boil your electrolyte (acid) and you are not going to burn up the winding in your alternator or fry the diodes. Any of those is possible with a shorted plate in the battery. A battery can even explode under those conditions, it has happened.
Good luck
One more thing I should add is that even if you ran the stock alternator but always ran it near the limit you are going to encounter problems in the long run.
So If you run a 100 or 144 amp alternator and you are running right near 60 amps expect the same kind of problems. Things like wires getting hot, alternator getting hot (stock unit) and potentially failing, increased resistance in the wires due to heat and corrosion which will in turn create more heat and amperage draw. Generally speaking it's just like anything, run it near or to it's limit continuously and you reduce it's life span.
One suggestion that was probably valid is to set the trip amperage somewhat below the system amperage rating. 60 amps is 3 amps below, but 55 might be better.
Last edited by REELAV8R; 03-20-2017 at 05:09 PM.
03-20-2017, 06:13 PM
#43
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
Posts: 11,061
Received 845 Likes
on
721 Posts
Why go through so much trouble trying to create an innovative solution when you could simply spend $25 on a piece of wire, lugs and fusible link so it's done right? I've cut-up, chopped out and otherwise replaced a lot of "innovations" in my time.FYI, the 3-wire voltage sensing is useless on a '79 C3 because it's simply tied to the charging wire shortly downstream of the alternator. Jumpering to the alternator stud would achieve the same result regulation wise.
Last edited by lionelhutz; 03-20-2017 at 06:22 PM.
03-20-2017, 07:07 PM
#44
Le Mans Master
Why go through so much trouble trying to create an innovative solution when you could simply spend $25 on a piece of wire, lugs and fusible link so it's done right? I've cut-up, chopped out and otherwise replaced a lot of "innovations" in my time.FYI, the 3-wire voltage sensing is useless on a '79 C3 because it's simply tied to the charging wire shortly downstream of the alternator. Jumpering to the alternator stud would achieve the same result regulation wise.
On the car since 2008 with only the OEM wiring ( I know, I know but no high drain accessories through the OEM wiring) with no issues including a very weak battery back in 2014 after the engine rebuild when the battery would not restart the car after running. I had a 100 amp alternator on the car before the CS144 140 amp alternator from the early 90's before that...The only high amp accessories are my 100 watt Hella Halogen high beams run directly off the Cs144 to a relay and fused...has never blown the fuse since the early 90's
Sooooo...after your discussions, I decided to buy 10ft of 6 gauge welders wire, 2 wire outlets for the starter and the alternator hookup and an 80 amp in line fuse that will run along side of the OEM wiring...
As lionelhutz stated, for $25 I will cover myself even though I have never had an issue.
You guys motivated me.....
Last edited by jb78L-82; 03-20-2017 at 07:08 PM.
03-20-2017, 09:24 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
Why go through so much trouble trying to create an innovative solution when you could simply spend $25 on a piece of wire, lugs and fusible link so it's done right? I've cut-up, chopped out and otherwise replaced a lot of "innovations" in my time.FYI, the 3-wire voltage sensing is useless on a '79 C3 because it's simply tied to the charging wire shortly downstream of the alternator. Jumpering to the alternator stud would achieve the same result regulation wise.
Specifically how the alternator responds to a load at the starter lug when the sensing is back at the alternator.
Just how much of a voltage drop you're going to see at a the fuse panel and how is that going to effect the headlights or the blower fan without remote sensing.
Or maybe what happens to your HEI ignition voltage without remote sensing.
Lay it on me. I'm listening.
I don't have a '79 just a '77 so maybe they made changes in those two years?
I don't see all the trouble either. One auto resetting breaker spliced in at the alternator. I guess it could take 10 minutes if you go slowly.
Last edited by REELAV8R; 03-20-2017 at 10:08 PM.
03-20-2017, 10:31 PM
#46
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
Posts: 11,061
Received 845 Likes
on
721 Posts
Most C3's have the #2 terminal of the connector spliced to the B+ output terminal wire shortly after it leaves the alternator. The only load at this splice is the hood light on certain years. The sensing wire doesn't run to the fuse block. I know it was done that way on all the 10SI equipped C3's through the 70's until at least 78.
And now lazy is your reason to do it the wrong way?
And now lazy is your reason to do it the wrong way?
Last edited by lionelhutz; 03-20-2017 at 10:41 PM.
03-20-2017, 10:37 PM
#47
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
Posts: 11,061
Received 845 Likes
on
721 Posts
Sounds good, but personally I would not use a 80A fuse either. That 6 gauge wire can easily handle the full 144A so why limit it like that? Just put a piece of 10 gauge fusible link wire on the starter end.
03-20-2017, 10:58 PM
#48
Le Mans Master
Most C3's have the #2 terminal of the connector spliced to the B+ output terminal wire shortly after it leaves the alternator. The only load at this splice is the hood light on certain years. The sensing wire doesn't run to the fuse block. I know it was done that way on all the 10SI equipped C3's through the 70's until at least 78.
And now lazy is your reason to do it the wrong way?
And now lazy is your reason to do it the wrong way?
First it was "so much trouble" and now it's "lazy"? Define the "wrong" vs the "right" way for me.
Still waiting for those details.
Last edited by REELAV8R; 03-20-2017 at 11:01 PM.
03-20-2017, 11:18 PM
#49
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
Posts: 11,061
Received 845 Likes
on
721 Posts
LOL, the sensing wire on a stock 77 certainly DOES NOT go all the way INTO the fuse block to regulate the voltage AT the fuse block as you implied it does.
The so much effort was sarcastic towards your continued use of essay after essay to try and prove your badly engineered shortcuts were the best way to go. The lazy was responding to your post claiming your "innovative" shortcut was easy with the "I guess it could take 10 minutes". Were you not implying that it being quicker and easier made it a better solution compared to doing doing it the correct way?
But hey, keep up with the nitpicking and twisting of what's been written. You're good at it.
The so much effort was sarcastic towards your continued use of essay after essay to try and prove your badly engineered shortcuts were the best way to go. The lazy was responding to your post claiming your "innovative" shortcut was easy with the "I guess it could take 10 minutes". Were you not implying that it being quicker and easier made it a better solution compared to doing doing it the correct way?
But hey, keep up with the nitpicking and twisting of what's been written. You're good at it.
Last edited by lionelhutz; 03-20-2017 at 11:21 PM.
03-21-2017, 12:09 AM
#50
Pro
I have a Powermaster 140 amp alternator on my car with the 3 wire setup in place.
When the first one fried my wiring harness, my mechanic (as part of cleaning everything up) wires the sense wire to the positive post and I put 30,000 miles or so on the car like that. I've noticed no real difference in voltage between either way of wiring it up.
CS130 style alternators can use a sensor wire, but when it isn't hooked up, the alternator senses its own voltage internally. Apparently that arrangement was good enough for the GM engineers that designed the alternator.
The comment about one wire alternators not being able to sense the loads of other devices is just not accurate. When those accessories turn on, the voltage across the e tire system will drop, including at the alternator post, unless the alternator increases its output. The only reason for a remote sensing wire placed farther away from the alternator is so that the alternator can sense the voltage in the harness, whee the voltage may have dropped a bit due to resistance in the wires or connectors. If everything is in perfect condition, the voltage in the harness should be almost exactly the voltage at the alternator (and battery) post. The remote sense wire makes sure that the harness still sees the proper voltage even if there is resistance in the electrical path.
Edit: It seems like a lot more effort to engineer specific circuit breakers in the stock wiring harness than it does to just run a 6 gauge fused wire. I would guess that the difference in cost is negligible, too. The only difference in installation effort is needing to access the starter to run the 6 gauge wire.
When the first one fried my wiring harness, my mechanic (as part of cleaning everything up) wires the sense wire to the positive post and I put 30,000 miles or so on the car like that. I've noticed no real difference in voltage between either way of wiring it up.
CS130 style alternators can use a sensor wire, but when it isn't hooked up, the alternator senses its own voltage internally. Apparently that arrangement was good enough for the GM engineers that designed the alternator.
The comment about one wire alternators not being able to sense the loads of other devices is just not accurate. When those accessories turn on, the voltage across the e tire system will drop, including at the alternator post, unless the alternator increases its output. The only reason for a remote sensing wire placed farther away from the alternator is so that the alternator can sense the voltage in the harness, whee the voltage may have dropped a bit due to resistance in the wires or connectors. If everything is in perfect condition, the voltage in the harness should be almost exactly the voltage at the alternator (and battery) post. The remote sense wire makes sure that the harness still sees the proper voltage even if there is resistance in the electrical path.
Edit: It seems like a lot more effort to engineer specific circuit breakers in the stock wiring harness than it does to just run a 6 gauge fused wire. I would guess that the difference in cost is negligible, too. The only difference in installation effort is needing to access the starter to run the 6 gauge wire.
Last edited by dmruschell; 03-21-2017 at 12:14 AM.
03-21-2017, 12:25 AM
#51
Le Mans Master
Member Since: May 2003
Location: Fernandina Beach FL
Posts: 8,476
Received 3,218 Likes
on
1,730 Posts
2023 Restomod of the Year finalist
2020 C3 of the Year Winner - Modified
03-21-2017, 10:08 PM
#52
Team Owner
Richard...
Your 'dead horse' graphic is WAY better than the Emoticon.
Your 'dead horse' graphic is WAY better than the Emoticon.
03-22-2017, 08:49 AM
#53
Le Mans Master
Member Since: May 2003
Location: Fernandina Beach FL
Posts: 8,476
Received 3,218 Likes
on
1,730 Posts
2023 Restomod of the Year finalist
2020 C3 of the Year Winner - Modified
