Oil on plugs after rebuild.
10-23-2017, 01:01 PM
#201
Melting Slicks
I hope for your sake it is in the heads so the whole engine doesn't have to come out.
Having said that, I have seen upside down second rings more than once. It would only take one to burn the oil you're experiencing. An overlapped oil ring expander could do it too. The problem with troubleshooting these issues is they will not show any scores in the cylinder wall. You could even have a broken second ring (oil control) and not show up as a score or scratch.
Keep on your builder until they get it right.
Mike
Having said that, I have seen upside down second rings more than once. It would only take one to burn the oil you're experiencing. An overlapped oil ring expander could do it too. The problem with troubleshooting these issues is they will not show any scores in the cylinder wall. You could even have a broken second ring (oil control) and not show up as a score or scratch.
Keep on your builder until they get it right.
Mike
Last edited by v2racing; 10-23-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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LenWoodruff (10-24-2017)
10-23-2017, 07:53 PM
#202
Le Mans Master
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It certainly sounds like the heads not being done properly but just a reminder on the intake manifold gasket.
If we had a suspected manifold gasket leak, spraying some carb cleaner or for that matter any volatile spray around the intake manifold where they meet the heads would indicate if there is a leak. Listen or watch for a surge or change in engine idle as the "gas" gets thru the leak in the gasket. No change, no leak.
I hate to point fingers at someone else without inspecting work myself BUT....a missing valve seal is a HUGE red flag.
And something YOUR builder should have picked up on when installing the heads. Attention to detail seems to be lacking these days. A lot of lets just keep our fingers crossed.
Good luck resolving this as it sure sounds like its been a while.
No fun in that.
If we had a suspected manifold gasket leak, spraying some carb cleaner or for that matter any volatile spray around the intake manifold where they meet the heads would indicate if there is a leak. Listen or watch for a surge or change in engine idle as the "gas" gets thru the leak in the gasket. No change, no leak.
I hate to point fingers at someone else without inspecting work myself BUT....a missing valve seal is a HUGE red flag.
And something YOUR builder should have picked up on when installing the heads. Attention to detail seems to be lacking these days. A lot of lets just keep our fingers crossed.
Good luck resolving this as it sure sounds like its been a while.
No fun in that.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; 10-23-2017 at 07:55 PM.
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LenWoodruff (10-24-2017)
10-23-2017, 09:01 PM
#203
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St. Jude Donor '12-'13, '15- '16-'17-'18-'19, '21
Unfortunately the spray can leak tester method only works on the top portion of the intake gasket, meaning it may or may not be sucking outside air. The bottom of the intake gasket would not respond to the spray and could very well be invisibly leaking, sucking the inside oily mist in the lifter valley. Hence, oil usage, fouled plugs, etc.
A mismatch in the angles of the intake to the heads would be a good source for the lower portion to leak. But he said that there was no change in components from the last rebuild if I read him carefully. And any good builder would check the intake to the head fit before installing the gasket to make sure there was not a taper. Right?
So unless the block was decked or the heads milled, the intake and heads should line up properly.
Once again...it sounds like lack of attention to details somewhere along the way.
Missing valve seal...wow!
10-23-2017, 11:07 PM
#204
Well they want the least expensive solution so that is why it has taken 5 months since I 1st got the car back from the engine rebuild.
I think they are of the opinion that the machine shop short cut the head/valve job by either not putting new bronze wall valve guides or not sizing them correctly to each valve.
While the possibility of the intake gaskets leaking is small. They will be able to answer that when the pull the intake.
Also with the heads of we can see if there is any cylinder scoring from the oil rings separator.
I think they are of the opinion that the machine shop short cut the head/valve job by either not putting new bronze wall valve guides or not sizing them correctly to each valve.
While the possibility of the intake gaskets leaking is small. They will be able to answer that when the pull the intake.
Also with the heads of we can see if there is any cylinder scoring from the oil rings separator.
Last edited by Vortecpro; 10-23-2017 at 11:17 PM.
10-23-2017, 11:19 PM
#206
[QUOTE=v2racing;1595818585]I hope for your sake it is in the heads so the whole engine doesn't have to come out.
Having said that, I have seen upside down second rings more than once. It would only take one to burn the oil you're experiencing. An overlapped oil ring expander could do it too. The problem with troubleshooting these issues is they will not show any scores in the cylinder wall. You could even have a broken second ring (oil control) and not show up as a score or scratch.
Keep on your builder until they get it right.
Mike[/QUOT
Again...if there was a ring problem his oil would not look like it does.
Having said that, I have seen upside down second rings more than once. It would only take one to burn the oil you're experiencing. An overlapped oil ring expander could do it too. The problem with troubleshooting these issues is they will not show any scores in the cylinder wall. You could even have a broken second ring (oil control) and not show up as a score or scratch.
Keep on your builder until they get it right.
Mike[/QUOT
Again...if there was a ring problem his oil would not look like it does.
10-24-2017, 08:23 AM
#207
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
True. I was thinking more along the lines that a bad gasket or poor install would leak in more than one spot. Spray test is a simple test and only takes a few seconds. Often times, the most simple answer is the correct one. Occum's razor...
A mismatch in the angles of the intake to the heads would be a good source for the lower portion to leak. But he said that there was no change in components from the last rebuild if I read him carefully. And any good builder would check the intake to the head fit before installing the gasket to make sure there was not a taper. Right?
So unless the block was decked or the heads milled, the intake and heads should line up properly.
Once again...it sounds like lack of attention to details somewhere along the way.
Missing valve seal...wow!
A mismatch in the angles of the intake to the heads would be a good source for the lower portion to leak. But he said that there was no change in components from the last rebuild if I read him carefully. And any good builder would check the intake to the head fit before installing the gasket to make sure there was not a taper. Right?
So unless the block was decked or the heads milled, the intake and heads should line up properly.
Once again...it sounds like lack of attention to details somewhere along the way.
Missing valve seal...wow!
There is oil on all of the plugs, but mostly the back 4. 5, 6, 7 8.
10-24-2017, 08:26 AM
#208
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Hmm a short cut on the heads. You need to educate yourself on how a cylinder head is rebuilt so you can make sure it gets done right. Have the machinist put in writing exactly what he's going to do to fix the heads, then you either approve or disapprove the work. Take them the springs, valves, and seals, not much money, put a good foot forward. Its very important they know you know what needs to be done.
That is why I elected to have someone else with more recent experience do the engine.
Not sure that was a good idea now.
Last edited by LenWoodruff; 10-24-2017 at 08:27 AM.
10-24-2017, 08:29 AM
#209
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=Vortecpro;1595822886]
Do you mean since the oil is so clean it is unlikely that the rings are the problems?
I hope for your sake it is in the heads so the whole engine doesn't have to come out.
Having said that, I have seen upside down second rings more than once. It would only take one to burn the oil you're experiencing. An overlapped oil ring expander could do it too. The problem with troubleshooting these issues is they will not show any scores in the cylinder wall. You could even have a broken second ring (oil control) and not show up as a score or scratch.
Keep on your builder until they get it right.
Mike[/QUOT
Again...if there was a ring problem his oil would not look like it does.
Having said that, I have seen upside down second rings more than once. It would only take one to burn the oil you're experiencing. An overlapped oil ring expander could do it too. The problem with troubleshooting these issues is they will not show any scores in the cylinder wall. You could even have a broken second ring (oil control) and not show up as a score or scratch.
Keep on your builder until they get it right.
Mike[/QUOT
Again...if there was a ring problem his oil would not look like it does.
10-24-2017, 09:36 AM
#210
[QUOTE=LenWoodruff;1595823850][QUOTE=Vortecpro;1595822886]
Do you
mean since the oil is so clean it is unlikely that the rings are the problems?
That's what I've been saying for pages...............
I've also said get your heads to someone competent.............life is too short
Do you
mean since the oil is so clean it is unlikely that the rings are the problems?
That's what I've been saying for pages...............
I've also said get your heads to someone competent.............life is too short
Last edited by Vortecpro; 10-24-2017 at 09:39 AM.
10-24-2017, 11:36 AM
#211
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=Vortecpro;1595824228][QUOTE=LenWoodruff;1595823850]That would be good news if it is not the rings like you say. That makes the resolution easier as long as they can fix the heads correctly.
10-24-2017, 11:26 PM
#212
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But while it is apart, now would be a good time to lay the intake manifold in place on the heads while they are still installed and see if there is greater gap along the rear versus the front.
Of course make sure all the old gasket is cleaned off the intake and the heads.
Good luck with your search for an answer.
Several pics of what I just suggested posted here might give us a better view of the issue.
I lean towards a poor rebuild job of the heads being the source of the problem.
Bman (Dennis)
10-25-2017, 07:47 AM
#213
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I agree.... .015 mill should not have cause a mismatch.
But while it is apart, now would be a good time to lay the intake manifold in place on the heads while they are still installed and see if there is greater gap along the rear versus the front.
Of course make sure all the old gasket is cleaned off the intake and the heads.
Good luck with your search for an answer.
Several pics of what I just suggested posted here might give us a better view of the issue.
I lean towards a poor rebuild job of the heads being the source of the problem.
Bman (Dennis)
But while it is apart, now would be a good time to lay the intake manifold in place on the heads while they are still installed and see if there is greater gap along the rear versus the front.
Of course make sure all the old gasket is cleaned off the intake and the heads.
Good luck with your search for an answer.
Several pics of what I just suggested posted here might give us a better view of the issue.
I lean towards a poor rebuild job of the heads being the source of the problem.
Bman (Dennis)
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10-25-2017, 09:35 AM
#214
I agree.... .015 mill should not have cause a mismatch.
But while it is apart, now would be a good time to lay the intake manifold in place on the heads while they are still installed and see if there is greater gap along the rear versus the front.
Of course make sure all the old gasket is cleaned off the intake and the heads.
Good luck with your search for an answer.
Several pics of what I just suggested posted here might give us a better view of the issue.
I lean towards a poor rebuild job of the heads being the source of the problem.
Bman (Dennis)
But while it is apart, now would be a good time to lay the intake manifold in place on the heads while they are still installed and see if there is greater gap along the rear versus the front.
Of course make sure all the old gasket is cleaned off the intake and the heads.
Good luck with your search for an answer.
Several pics of what I just suggested posted here might give us a better view of the issue.
I lean towards a poor rebuild job of the heads being the source of the problem.
Bman (Dennis)
Len.........I can sell you the correct parts at cost, valves springs, seals I'd say around 175.00. That would be a start.
Last edited by Vortecpro; 10-25-2017 at 09:43 AM.
10-25-2017, 11:50 AM
#216
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I'd like you to consider something: When Len's L82 was manufactured by Chevrolet was it not assembled with a steel shim head gasket? Surely when it was rebuilt a brown box Fel Pro head gasket was employed, now what is the difference in the thickness between the two head gaskets? Could it be possible that number is right around .015?
Len.........I can sell you the correct parts at cost, valves springs, seals I'd say around 175.00. That would be a start.
Len.........I can sell you the correct parts at cost, valves springs, seals I'd say around 175.00. That would be a start.
And I imagine you agree that a .015 mill is not much. I have worked with zero decked blocks and there was not any significant mismatch between the heads and intake manifold.
But if the heads were milled inconsistently from front to back by a poor operator, then he might have a leak at the rear of the head.
Just a thought.
That is why more pics in detail would help us who are interested in this mystery. We don't have the luxury of being hands on and inspecting the work up close and personal.
I find myself trying to figure out what is causing his problem partly because it is a detective mystery and partly because I'd like to see Len get the problem resolved without unnecessary work being done.
I am sure there would be a shop out there willing to do a complete new engine overhaul for a problem caused by one simple valve seal missing or improper valve guide installed.
Agree?
Thanks
Dennis
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LenWoodruff (10-25-2017)
10-25-2017, 11:59 AM
#217
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I'd like you to consider something: When Len's L82 was manufactured by Chevrolet was it not assembled with a steel shim head gasket? Surely when it was rebuilt a brown box Fel Pro head gasket was employed, now what is the difference in the thickness between the two head gaskets? Could it be possible that number is right around .015?
Len.........I can sell you the correct parts at cost, valves springs, seals I'd say around 175.00. That would be a start.
Len.........I can sell you the correct parts at cost, valves springs, seals I'd say around 175.00. That would be a start.
10-25-2017, 12:13 PM
#218
Pro
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If you removed all 16 of the valve stem seals none of the spark plugs would get fouled but it would puff out a little smoke when it's started. Prior the 1950's none of the engines used valve stem seals and they didn't foul spark plugs. It wasn't until the 1960's when the factory engineers realized the lack of valve stem seals was adding to the air pollution and so they began installing seals on the intake valves only and later on they put seals on the exhaust valves. There is something drastically wrong with the #6 cylinder wall or oil rings.
10-25-2017, 12:24 PM
#219
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
If you removed all 16 of the valve stem seals none of the spark plugs would get fouled but it would puff out a little smoke when it's started. Prior the 1950's none of the engines used valve stem seals and they didn't foul spark plugs. It wasn't until the 1960's when the factory engineers realized the lack of valve stem seals was adding to the air pollution and so they began installing seals on the intake valves only and later on they put seals on the exhaust valves. There is something drastically wrong with the #6 cylinder wall or oil rings.
While #6 is one of the worst they all of them have oil on the plugs. Especially the rear 4. 5, 6, 7, 8.
Last edited by LenWoodruff; 10-25-2017 at 12:24 PM.
10-25-2017, 06:51 PM
#220