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They took the heads off the car and clearly it is the valve guides that are the primary issue. I took a couple of shots of the cylinders. The most interesting is the #4 (right side) that has part of the piston clean and the other part sooted up by the burned oil.
Right side head, See the clean spot on #4 piston. I couldn't see any cylinder wall problems but didn't turn the engine over.
Unfortunately, it still doesn't tell you what the culprit is....Without spinning the motor over and examining the cylinders VERY close, its hard to verify that its not a oil ring problem.
At least there doesn't look to be any major "shadowing" on the skirt side of the cylinder walls indicating a loose piston to wall clearance but....
Its still hard to tell without a full tear down and measuring the cylinders for trueness and oil ring orientation etc.
For me, at this point, I'd mandate a full teardown honestly.
Decades ago, guys would slowly introduce water mist down the carburator on a running engine. Why? It was said that the water removed carbon deposits on the piston head and combustion chamber making it spiffy clean. H-m-m-m-m-m-m. Carbon removal? Kind of like that #4 piston of yours? Think there is a coolant leak on that one?
Look real close at the head gasket.
They took the heads off the car and clearly it is the valve guides that are the primary issue. I took a couple of shots of the cylinders. The most interesting is the #4 (right side) that has part of the piston clean and the other part sooted up by the burned oil.
Right side head, See the clean spot on #4 piston. I couldn't see any cylinder wall problems but didn't turn the engine over.
Left bank. All of the pistons are evenly oil.
Post 154 "But I am suspecting your #6 cylinder has a deep score in it causing the oil"
Post 162
I have seen many cases of cylinder wall scoring caused by dropped lock washers, ball bearings, nuts, bolts, snap rings, and other odds and ends that got into cylinders. Sometimes the object is just big enough to get wedged between the side of the piston top and cylinder wall (like a little spring clip of a carburetor or a tiny piece of debris that was lying in an intake manifold runner and not noticed).
Post 168
"But I'm still betting on a scored cylinder wall OR something really wrong with the oil rings of that #6 cylinder"
Post 177 "There has to be a scored cylinder or something wrong with the oil rings on that #6 piston".
Post 188
It takes a full 50,000 miles to completely wear in oil rings (barrel faces worn completely flat) but they should seal enough within several hundred miles to prevent excessive oil consumption. But as you fouled the #6 spark plug so bad I'm sure there is a score in the #6 cylinder wall. Remember, the 265" and 283" engines only used o-rings and they didn't suffer from high oil consumption.
Post 196
Your knowledge of piston rings is seriously lacking.
Post 215 It's a #6 scored cylinder wall.
Post 218 If you removed all 16 of the valve stem seals none of the spark plugs would get fouled but it would puff out a little smoke when it's started. Prior the 1950's none of the engines used valve stem seals and they didn't foul spark plugs. It wasn't until the 1960's when the factory engineers realized the lack of valve stem seals was adding to the air pollution and so they began installing seals on the intake valves only and later on they put seals on the exhaust valves. There is something drastically wrong with the #6 cylinder wall or oil rings.
It seems the heads were not done right..................Vortecpro
Post 154 "But I am suspecting your #6 cylinder has a deep score in it causing the oil"
Post 162
I have seen many cases of cylinder wall scoring caused by dropped lock washers, ball bearings, nuts, bolts, snap rings, and other odds and ends that got into cylinders. Sometimes the object is just big enough to get wedged between the side of the piston top and cylinder wall (like a little spring clip of a carburetor or a tiny piece of debris that was lying in an intake manifold runner and not noticed).
Post 168
"But I'm still betting on a scored cylinder wall OR something really wrong with the oil rings of that #6 cylinder"
Post 177 "There has to be a scored cylinder or something wrong with the oil rings on that #6 piston".
Post 188
It takes a full 50,000 miles to completely wear in oil rings (barrel faces worn completely flat) but they should seal enough within several hundred miles to prevent excessive oil consumption. But as you fouled the #6 spark plug so bad I'm sure there is a score in the #6 cylinder wall. Remember, the 265" and 283" engines only used o-rings and they didn't suffer from high oil consumption.
Post 196
Your knowledge of piston rings is seriously lacking.
Post 215 It's a #6 scored cylinder wall.
Post 218 If you removed all 16 of the valve stem seals none of the spark plugs would get fouled but it would puff out a little smoke when it's started. Prior the 1950's none of the engines used valve stem seals and they didn't foul spark plugs. It wasn't until the 1960's when the factory engineers realized the lack of valve stem seals was adding to the air pollution and so they began installing seals on the intake valves only and later on they put seals on the exhaust valves. There is something drastically wrong with the #6 cylinder wall or oil rings.
It seems the heads were not done right..................Vortecpro
I agree and my engine buider agrees the heads weren't done correct.
The heads are going back to the machine shop tomorrow with a stern **** kicking by my engine builder.
Wouldn't have just been easier to do it right the 1st time?
Valve Stem Seals Will Never Cause Spark Plug Fouling
It looks like the oil rings of the #1 piston are passing some oil at the 2 o'clock position and the oil rings of the #4 piston are passing a LOT oil at the 4 o'clock position. You need to pull those two pistons out and see what's going on. There is a strong possibility the 2nd compression rings were installed upside down on those two pistons because oil is getting past them. It also looks like the cylinders #2 and #6 have a lot of taper which would indicate the block wasn't bored this time around. Prior to the 1950's automotive engines didn't even use valve stem seals and they didn't foul spark plugs. The problem is in your short block; not in your cylinder heads.
It looks like the oil rings of the #1 piston are passing some oil at the 2 o'clock position and the oil rings of the #4 piston are passing a LOT oil at the 4 o'clock position. You need to pull those two pistons out and see what's going on. There is a strong possibility the 2nd compression rings were installed upside down on those two pistons because oil is getting past them. It also looks like the cylinders #2 and #6 have a lot of taper which would indicate the block wasn't bored this time around. Prior to the 1950's automotive engines didn't even use valve stem seals and they didn't foul spark plugs. The problem is in your short block; not in your cylinder heads.
The block was bored .040 over with a block plate. I thought there was only a single compression ring on these pistons?
They took the heads willoff the car and clearly it is the valve guides that are the primary issue. I took a couple of shots of the cylinders. The most interesting is the #4 (right side) that has part of the piston clean and the other part sooted up by the burned oil.
Right side head, See the clean spot on #4 piston. I couldn't see any cylinder wall problems but didn't turn the engine over.
Left bank. All of the pistons are evenly oil.
That piston is clean from bad head gasket for sure. someone had mentioned it previously and they are absolutely correct. Those pistones are way to black on top. Something is deffinately wrong with the build. The exaust and intake vales will be soaked with oil on the valve stems if its seals or guides. I bet they are mostly dry... The culprit is rings. While it is very possible that the water on that clean piston was causing excessive oil burning, inwould suspect if a gasget wasnt assembled right then there are other build problems. I would ask them to pull that piston, remove top ring and place in walls and measure the ring gap. I would bet dirt to dollars the gaps were not checked and they are out of spec.
That piston is clean from bad head gasket for sure. someone had mentioned it previously and they are absolutely correct. Those pistones are way to black on top. Something is deffinately wrong with the build. The exaust and intake vales will be soaked with oil on the valve stems if its seals or guides. I bet they are mostly dry... The culprit is rings. While it is very possible that the water on that clean piston was causing excessive oil burning, inwould suspect if a gasget wasnt assembled right then there are other build problems. I would ask them to pull that piston, remove top ring and place in walls and measure the ring gap. I would bet dirt to dollars the gaps were not checked and they are out of spec.
The valves a both intake & exhaust are soaked with oil and are as black as the pistons.
Wow, just came across this thread. Len, I have to ask. Is this 'engine builder' working out of his mothers basement?
I commend your patience. The second that I discovered that it was burning that much oil, and ABSOLUTELY after seeing the shavings on the drain plug that car would have been towed back to their shop. This is clearly either negligence, incompetence, or more likely a combination of both.
This is very clearly their problem. I hope they do right by you and get it fixed asap.
The valves a both intake & exhaust are soaked with oil and are as black as the pistons.
Are ALL the valves soaked??? That is the real question, and is egr valve on your intake at cylinder 4, pretty sure it is, which would soak your intake ENTIRELY for all cylinders, which would explain all the black pistons, which means the head gasget did in fact make it look like all cylinders where burning oil. This is a "what the hell" kind of moment. I had passenger side head gasget go on a new head swap i did....water froze in block....heater quit during night...long story short, i dont think it used any oil but i only drove it for about 100 miles before fixing, piston was cleaner where it went bad, couldnt find a bad spot on gasget. Also happened on a 351winsor i had. Piston was cleaner, couldnt find a bad spot on gasget. It happens sometimes...and the amount of coolant they go down is minimal...its like they blow more pressure back into coolant system then they actually comsume.
Are ALL the valves soaked??? That is the real question, and is egr valve on your intake at cylinder 4, pretty sure it is, which would soak your intake ENTIRELY for all cylinders, which would explain all the black pistons, which means the head gasget did in fact make it look like all cylinders where burning oil. This is a "what the hell" kind of moment. I had passenger side head gasget go on a new head swap i did....water froze in block....heater quit during night...long story short, i dont think it used any oil but i only drove it for about 100 miles before fixing, piston was cleaner where it went bad, couldnt find a bad spot on gasget. Also happened on a 351winsor i had. Piston was cleaner, couldnt find a bad spot on gasget. It happens sometimes...and the amount of coolant they go down is minimal...its like they blow more pressure back into coolant system then they actually comsume.
I always been told that the #6 was where the EGR was located. But it is on the right side.
The black oil soot could have come off if some coolant was drops in the cylinder when the head came off?
Gasoline engines have been around for a little over 100 years but valve stem seals have only been used for the last 50 of them and often on the intake valves only. It's common practice to not use any valve stem seals in engines that run on "dry" fuels like propane or natural gas because the slight amount of oil that runs down the valve stem helps extend the valve face and seat life by providing a "cushion" to the closing valve. The point is bad valve stem seals will never cause spark plugs to oil foul as only damaged cylinder walls and piston rings cause that. If one of the bronze guides somehow got seized to the valve and the guide got demolished you'd know it because that cylinder would start missing from the sideways movement of the valve but that's highly unlikely because the guides are pressed in and then reamed for about 0015" clearance.
Gasoline engines have been around for a little over 100 years but valve stem seals have only been used for the last 50 of them and often on the intake valves only. It's common practice to not use any valve stem seals in engines that run on "dry" fuels like propane or natural gas because the slight amount of oil that runs down the valve stem helps extend the valve face and seat life by providing a "cushion" to the closing valve. The point is bad valve stem seals will never cause spark plugs to oil foul as only damaged cylinder walls and piston rings cause that. If one of the bronze guides somehow got seized to the valve and the guide got demolished you'd know it because that cylinder would start missing from the sideways movement of the valve but that's highly unlikely because the guides are pressed in and then reamed for about 0015" clearance.
I hope your wrong about the rings. I have had this oil through the valve guides on this engine before in the 80's. So I don't follow your logic that it has to be the rings.
10-25-2017, 08:09 PM
