v2racing

You would be mistaken here. Have you ever watched a slow motion video of valve springs in a Spitron test? Not only do they rotate, they dance all over the place. They can and will eat through anything not hardened. You should always have hardened a hardened washer or spring seats under the valve, especially with aluminum heads.

Watch this video.
Mike

HeadsU.P.

Ok. Remind me not to turn 8500.

v2racing

This is just the first video that came up and I grabbed it to show what springs do. They move a lot at lower RPM's also. Different springs oscillate at different RPM's, but they all move around.

Mike

Vortecpro

You had to do that.....didn't you. Hardened spring shims are always used.

HeadsU.P.

Interesting that the next valve over doesn't have a spring on it. H-m-m-m-m-m. Is this a fake video?

v2racing

No it's Spintron testing. They only put the parts together that they want to test. There probably are no pistons and rods in the block either. If they were testing how high they can rev a certain rod and piston combo before it fails, there would be no valve train involved.

Spintron is a machine used in engine development. It has a powerful electric motor that can spin components to whatever RPM is desired. They have high speed cameras and strobe lights to capture the action.

Mike

HeadsU.P.

Sooooo, in reality, with real valves, real valve springs on a real engine at a realistic RPM the valvespring still rotates? Could be I guess.

PAmotorman

the worst problem is springs with a flat spring dampers as their sharp ends cut into the head surface like a cutting tool.

LenWoodruff

Update on the oil on plugs issues.

I changed to Rotella 10W-30 T5 synthetic blend and have driven it about 250 miles.

It has used more than 1/2 quart of oil. While that is down from the Castrol it is still too much.

Based on the posts here are the 3 most likely possibilities causing this issue in or from best to worst scenario.

1. Intake Gaskets leaking. I checked many of the plugs and the oil side of the plug is the side up facing the intake port. I know this because I marked the plug with a marker and when it was installed the mark was pointing up.

2. Oil Valve seals. Based on the bore scope pictures I took the valve heads are accumulating oil deposits. This typically means the oil seal. But I do not get any oil smoke on startup.

3. Rings. This is the worst possible situation I think. But I don't know how to determine that this is the issue.

I just want to confirm that I have the possibilities correct before I talk to the engine build again.

TimAT

A leak down test will tell you if the rings are the problem. Unfortunately, that doesn't really tell you much about the oil rings. It's more about the compression rings.

LenWoodruff

If it is the rings it is probably the oil rings do you think?

v2racing

I would just take it back to the rebuilder and tell him to fix it. You've done enough to try and figure it out, this should be on him.

Mike

TimAT

Pretty good bet. The top 2 compression rings do scrape the cylinder walls, but if the ring end gaps are funky the oil will still get by.
Earlier post was about the oil ring spacer having the ends stacked- if that happens the spacer will cut a ditch in the cylinder wall like it was broached. Big time ugly.

And I agree with v2racing-- you've been fighting with this enough it's time for your builder to step up.

LenWoodruff

That is pretty much where I am at.

san

It looks like valve seals to me. Notice the gold on the vavle stems....that looks like oil to me. If you suspect the rings, take out the plugs and rotate engine to bottom of stroke, the walls should look like chrome by now, and if there is any type of problem you will see the cross hatch pattern worn uneven, and if oil rings were installed incorrectly, which i dont think is the case, you will see major scars and scoring on walls, and your car would be smoking enough to scare you. In order to overlap an oil carrier or spacer and still be able to cram those oils rings in there will definately do major damage to walls. I would think the assembler would have a hard time getting pistons to slide in..
Another way we use to tell if vavle seals were bad was to see if they slid easily on stem. They should be able to slide but still have a pretty good grip, and they should be able to kind of bend on the stem...if they feel rock hard and cant twist and angle on the stem then they are likely hard. HOWEVER....if those vavle seals are older, there are oil additives to soften them. But truth be told what happens i believe is small cracks form on the inner rubbers and oil slides through.

To make a long story short and to help put you at rest....oil on top of plugs is usually a sign of bad valve seals. Yes its POSSIBLE that intake is leaking but i would think leaking oil through the intake would make engine run like crap....the vacumn leak alone would be enough to make it not even want to idle.

LenWoodruff

Thanks for that information. It does point the problem is most likely the valve seals. Which in this case is even easier to resolve than the intake gasket.

I will be talking to the engine builder tomorrow.

HeadsU.P.

I agree with SAN. First things first, take the easy-cheap way out, then move on.
New valvestem seals & valvecover gaskets. You can get a tool to compress the valvesprings right on the heads for $50. You can use compressed air to hold the valve up with another cheap tool $12. But I have better luck with three feet of rope shoved in the sparkplug hole, then bring the piston up to TDC. Wack the valvestem with a mallet, compress spring, remove splitlocks with magnet, release spring, inspect / replace seal. If this doesn't cure the problem, then pull the heads. (with new seals) Its not too bad a job to change seals if you get the front end up on ramps. Save your back!

san

im not sure if you said they installed new vavle guides? Or if was someone else talking about their own build...

​​​​if it was your build that got new valve guides then wouldnt they have used new seals as well?

in any case, ive had engines use oil from a new build...and lots of it...i didnt actually measure it but how i fixed it was changing the oil continuously, took about 5-6 oil changes, was doing them weekly, then magically oil consumption dropped from a quart every 3-4 days to NOTHING....the most interesting part was with every oil change, as soon as the oil looked a little dirty is when the consumption would get worste. After like i said 5 or 6 changes it stayed super clean and engine didnt use a drop until it got a little dirty again, and by then it was due to be changed, like over 3000 miles, and would go down about half a quart. I however didnt do work on the heads, just a clean and prep.

​​​​​
​​​​​​
​​​​​​


​​​
​​​​​

LenWoodruff

The heads were completely reconditioned with bronze wall valve guides and new umbrella seals. Then a 3 angle valve job.

Tomorrow I will talk to the engine builder to get this resolved.

san

that would be the best course of action, hopefully he may know something we dont...the bronze guides could explain the gold i see on the valve stems. If nothing comes from talking to builder, take an oil sample on a clean piece of mirror or glass, just dab the oil dipstick on it...if it looks dirty at all compared to new oil, change it. From the pics i seen of drain plug on the rag it looks pretty dirty...it should be clean as new or real close to it. I would guess if valve assemblies were rebuilt as well then its not the valve seals but likely your oil is still contaminated. All those fine particles are caused from the cross hatch honing in the machining of block...it would also explain the 120psi conpression test. I would think your compression should be a little higher...pushing 140, but if the walls are still breaking in, then it will be lower for sure...i wouldnt give it a second thought, i would change the oil....run it for an hour and compare another oil sample. I bet if you pulled the dipstick and checked and oil sample, you will find small particles of grey dust it oil, which tends to stick to crosshatch and cause oil to get by the rings. The only TRUE way of knowing is to inspect walls with pistons at bottom of stroke...if you see crosshatch pattern then you have nothing to do except keep changing oil, and there is nothing to worry about. Good luck in any case!!


​​​​​​​

.

​​​​​​
​​​​​​