My NEW and improved 383 CFI build
#21
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I have a residence in lake havasu city AZ. I avoid the summer and kind of come and go. Starting around presidents day every year for the international fireworks show. Maybe I can l meet up with you sometime. I'm a dedicated quad rider and attend most of the boat races down at blue water.
George
George
Wow....outstanding!
Super Sano build and a CFI to boot!
What do each of the throttle bodies flow now?
Tell me about the fuel system and exhaust
Please update how it runs......so unique.
Jebby
Super Sano build and a CFI to boot!
What do each of the throttle bodies flow now?
Tell me about the fuel system and exhaust
Please update how it runs......so unique.
Jebby
Exhaust is just 1 5/8 tube Hedman's, 3" collector with SS 2.5" duals running all the way back to the Hooker max flow mufflers. I plan on changing the collectors to a 18" - 20" long collector to boost low end torque a little, it all adds up. I just re-coated the headers with Cerakote Glacier silver and had to let them dry for a week before I put them on, they came out pretty good. I ordered a pint and still have enough to re-coat the headers again if ever needed. I'm hoping for good time and numbers at the dyno, but you never know how it will turn out until your done.
Last edited by Buccaneer; 08-21-2017 at 08:16 PM.
#22
Team Owner
You should read up on header science. collector extensions only really work to open air "ZERO" back pressure like drag racing. That is why I went to full length three inch exhaust with 4 inch ovalled "H" pipe with 3 1/2 mufflers to keep back pressure to a minimum.
I have a local friend with a C-4 383 and at some point the intake runner became the restriction that additional injector flow and pressure could not support, and he went to some kind of Siamesed extrusion honed runners with 2.08/1.60 valves size 195 cc heads.
The search for power is all good. I personally use AFR 210 cc heads on my solid roller 383 with a single plane and a 5 speed tko600
I have a local friend with a C-4 383 and at some point the intake runner became the restriction that additional injector flow and pressure could not support, and he went to some kind of Siamesed extrusion honed runners with 2.08/1.60 valves size 195 cc heads.
The search for power is all good. I personally use AFR 210 cc heads on my solid roller 383 with a single plane and a 5 speed tko600
#23
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
You should read up on header science. collector extensions only really work to open air "ZERO" back pressure like drag racing. That is why I went to full length three inch exhaust with 4 inch ovalled "H" pipe with 3 1/2 mufflers to keep back pressure to a minimum.
I have a local friend with a C-4 383 and at some point the intake runner became the restriction that additional injector flow and pressure could not support, and he went to some kind of Siamesed extrusion honed runners with 2.08/1.60 valves size 195 cc heads.
The search for power is all good. I personally use AFR 210 cc heads on my solid roller 383 with a single plane and a 5 speed tko600
I have a local friend with a C-4 383 and at some point the intake runner became the restriction that additional injector flow and pressure could not support, and he went to some kind of Siamesed extrusion honed runners with 2.08/1.60 valves size 195 cc heads.
The search for power is all good. I personally use AFR 210 cc heads on my solid roller 383 with a single plane and a 5 speed tko600
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/exhaust/0505phr-exh/
When working with a CF, big is not always better in this world unfortunately. I was going to slap on a set of AFR 195s, but changed my mind at the last minute and reused my old 180 heads. Chris kind of talked me into reusing them since I wasn't really going to race the motor except occasionally at the track.
Last edited by Buccaneer; 08-21-2017 at 08:14 PM.
#24
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2002
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PM sent BTW.
Anyway... I only do tuning on my motor using TunerPro RT since that is the only app I use for a CF and don't like tuning other peoples motors for a variety of reasons. Email tunes are not the way to go IMO either. The only proper way to tune a motor is LIVE on the vehicle on a dyno, every motor is differnt. I know there are probably lots of people here that may disagree and argue with that, but it is the truth and the safe way to do things. I know what you mean about having no interest, and it is a somewhat steep learning curve, but it is a doable with a little time.
I don't use the many good dyno shops within the Phoenix area available and there are a lot of good LS shops and LS tuners also, I just load up the trailer and go to Lake Havasu. EFI University and Horsepower Connection are the ONLY two places I would recommend IMO and both are in Lake Havasu AZ. EFI U. also has done four or more cars for the show Street Outlaws as well (Doc brought his (street beast) car to EFI U. and had the complete ECM system done by them and went twin EFI) and my guy Brian has tuned some cars for that show as well. They don't come necessarily cheap, but they are good. Even as a former student I did get discounts, but they are still a little high, but IMO well worth it and will continue to learn a lot from them.
My engine machinist here knows a few of the Street Outlaws guys and says that Kye Kelly is fast along with a few others. My guy also has a standing public callout race with Reaper (posted on FP) this Sept at Tucson Dragway for $10K, I plan to be there.
UPDATE: I just called HPC and Brian said anytime within the next 30 days would work out good to get the car on the dyno. I just need to plan things out a little, load the car up and take a trip to Havasu for a two day vacation...Awesome!
Anyway... I only do tuning on my motor using TunerPro RT since that is the only app I use for a CF and don't like tuning other peoples motors for a variety of reasons. Email tunes are not the way to go IMO either. The only proper way to tune a motor is LIVE on the vehicle on a dyno, every motor is differnt. I know there are probably lots of people here that may disagree and argue with that, but it is the truth and the safe way to do things. I know what you mean about having no interest, and it is a somewhat steep learning curve, but it is a doable with a little time.
I don't use the many good dyno shops within the Phoenix area available and there are a lot of good LS shops and LS tuners also, I just load up the trailer and go to Lake Havasu. EFI University and Horsepower Connection are the ONLY two places I would recommend IMO and both are in Lake Havasu AZ. EFI U. also has done four or more cars for the show Street Outlaws as well (Doc brought his (street beast) car to EFI U. and had the complete ECM system done by them and went twin EFI) and my guy Brian has tuned some cars for that show as well. They don't come necessarily cheap, but they are good. Even as a former student I did get discounts, but they are still a little high, but IMO well worth it and will continue to learn a lot from them.
My engine machinist here knows a few of the Street Outlaws guys and says that Kye Kelly is fast along with a few others. My guy also has a standing public callout race with Reaper (posted on FP) this Sept at Tucson Dragway for $10K, I plan to be there.
UPDATE: I just called HPC and Brian said anytime within the next 30 days would work out good to get the car on the dyno. I just need to plan things out a little, load the car up and take a trip to Havasu for a two day vacation...Awesome!
Yea, I got to meet Been Strader for a tuning session once and a visit to his school would be needed. I was just down in Havasu last month to pick up a 400" standard bore block. But I didn't have time to waste to drive home in day light on small country roads. Plenty of hot rodders in that town along with boat racers. A good number of retirees from LA wind up there.
Hope your tuning plans work out.
Last edited by cardo0; 08-21-2017 at 08:16 PM. Reason: Add transmission.
#25
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Wow, your getting close to home. I need to follow this thread in case you push your schedule back. My Camaro is overdue for a transmission rebuild but in 2 - 3 months I'll be ready for a tune and it would be to cool to tune the same day as yours. Maybe meet George too.
Yea, I got to meet Been Strader for a tuning session once and a visit to his school would be needed. I was just down in Havasu last month to pick up a 400" standard bore block. But I didn't have time to waste to drive home in day light on small country roads. Plenty of hot rodders in that town along with boat racers. A good number of retirees from LA wind up there.
Hope your tuning plans work out.
Yea, I got to meet Been Strader for a tuning session once and a visit to his school would be needed. I was just down in Havasu last month to pick up a 400" standard bore block. But I didn't have time to waste to drive home in day light on small country roads. Plenty of hot rodders in that town along with boat racers. A good number of retirees from LA wind up there.
Hope your tuning plans work out.
Last edited by Buccaneer; 08-22-2017 at 08:17 PM.
#26
Team Owner
What do I think about the article. Other than it was written by David Visard in 2005. It has good information. It clearly shows open collector extension and talks about the tuned length being 12 to 24 inches long to open air
The other good point is that any back pressure is a power loss. So you want muffler flow cfm to be above hp requierments that is why I use 3 1/2 inch racing mufflers
The other good point is that any back pressure is a power loss. So you want muffler flow cfm to be above hp requierments that is why I use 3 1/2 inch racing mufflers
#27
Melting Slicks
What a great Build......also a big thanks to Buccaneer for this Thread which is now part of the "sticky" under........
PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT 383 CI ENGINE BUILD by Buccaneer 8/20/2017 is now in SECTION FIVE of the "sticky"
PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT 383 CI ENGINE BUILD by Buccaneer 8/20/2017 is now in SECTION FIVE of the "sticky"
Last edited by 74 LS4-454; 08-31-2017 at 01:21 AM.
#28
Melting Slicks
Your build looks great and I also love the attention to detail you put into your work.
I love driving my 84 with the CFI engine. I had a new 84 back in the day and bought my current 84 in 2011. I rebuilt the whole car and it drives and runs better than my new 84 did.
I love the looks of the C3s and yours is a fine example.
I love driving my 84 with the CFI engine. I had a new 84 back in the day and bought my current 84 in 2011. I rebuilt the whole car and it drives and runs better than my new 84 did.
I love the looks of the C3s and yours is a fine example.
#29
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Finally got the car scheduled for the dyno in Lake Havasu this week. Leaving Wed and wont be back until weekend. Thought I'd just stay in Havasu for a few days since the temps will be under 100*.
I have a couple last minute things I want to do to the motor before leaving, but it's ready to go really. Hoping to get some good numbers out of this motor, but we'll see how well we can strap it down on the twin rollers, that was an issue the last time since the car sits so low. I have 100 miles on the motor now and it does run strong even with the old tune. When it down shifts into second from around 60-65mph, it's crazy fast, much more than it used to be for sure.
I have a couple last minute things I want to do to the motor before leaving, but it's ready to go really. Hoping to get some good numbers out of this motor, but we'll see how well we can strap it down on the twin rollers, that was an issue the last time since the car sits so low. I have 100 miles on the motor now and it does run strong even with the old tune. When it down shifts into second from around 60-65mph, it's crazy fast, much more than it used to be for sure.
#30
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
A good number of retirees from LA wind up there.
Looking that way myself....havent been out there since 99 but seemed the state loves retirees and tranplants they pay the taxes
Telling anyone you were from LA would get you a dirty look lol
I hear the hot rod scene is real strong out there.
#31
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
UPDATE:
Went to Havasu and had some issues with the new motor. Motor wasn't running the way it should and had a vacuum issue that I attributed to as a tune issue at first. Only could get 320rwhp and WASN'T happy because the springs that Straub said to use were too weak even though my builder said they would probably cause issues...and they did, new springs I'm using with the new cam are LS springs with a seat pressure of 155#. Engine is back out of the car with only 115 miles on it, removed my Dart Pro1 heads and installed my new AFR 195 heads and went with a new larger cam from Bullet Racing cams is going in Monday. Thinking about replacing my Yank 3,200 TC with a Yank 3,500, but undecided on that right now.
Hope to have everything back together again next week and maybe get back over to Havasu to get it right.
One more thing, we had a restriction when on the dyno that we could see on the graph at WOT of maybe 1" of vacuum or maybe 2"s which we can tune that out. Found that issue, it's my TBs. At WOT the blades are not fully opening, maybe 1/8 or so for some reason, but you could see it on the dyno, working on that one as well. For not opening all the way, the motor was running OK kind of. Also working on the brakes installing new braided lines and a new rear crossover line. Also... What a POS the AFR heads were right out of the box. More on all this later.
Went to Havasu and had some issues with the new motor. Motor wasn't running the way it should and had a vacuum issue that I attributed to as a tune issue at first. Only could get 320rwhp and WASN'T happy because the springs that Straub said to use were too weak even though my builder said they would probably cause issues...and they did, new springs I'm using with the new cam are LS springs with a seat pressure of 155#. Engine is back out of the car with only 115 miles on it, removed my Dart Pro1 heads and installed my new AFR 195 heads and went with a new larger cam from Bullet Racing cams is going in Monday. Thinking about replacing my Yank 3,200 TC with a Yank 3,500, but undecided on that right now.
Hope to have everything back together again next week and maybe get back over to Havasu to get it right.
One more thing, we had a restriction when on the dyno that we could see on the graph at WOT of maybe 1" of vacuum or maybe 2"s which we can tune that out. Found that issue, it's my TBs. At WOT the blades are not fully opening, maybe 1/8 or so for some reason, but you could see it on the dyno, working on that one as well. For not opening all the way, the motor was running OK kind of. Also working on the brakes installing new braided lines and a new rear crossover line. Also... What a POS the AFR heads were right out of the box. More on all this later.
Last edited by Buccaneer; 10-05-2017 at 07:01 PM.
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cardo0 (10-06-2017)
#32
Le Mans Master
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Location: Las Vegas - Just stop perpetuating myths please.
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Wow, those are some serious issues Buc and glad to read you are on top of them. I installed a vacuum gauge on my Camaro on the dash right where most install a aftermarket tach and have nothing but good to say about it. I can read the engines health and load as I drive down the road. I doubt it could show a 1" Hg difference at WOT though but it's still very useful.
Thx for posting your results and experience with those vendor valvetrain parts and combinations. That particular vendor trolls the forums here but I read just as many of his failures as those that seem to work from him. Getting the results out there helps us all to see the truth and at least make a better decision.
I am surprised to read your AFR heads were not satisfactory. Makes me wonder if some AFR heads are bought bare and assembled with lessor parts to get the price down for a secondary supplier?
Thx.
Thx for posting your results and experience with those vendor valvetrain parts and combinations. That particular vendor trolls the forums here but I read just as many of his failures as those that seem to work from him. Getting the results out there helps us all to see the truth and at least make a better decision.
I am surprised to read your AFR heads were not satisfactory. Makes me wonder if some AFR heads are bought bare and assembled with lessor parts to get the price down for a secondary supplier?
Thx.
#33
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Wow, those are some serious issues Buc and glad to read you are on top of them. I installed a vacuum gauge on my Camaro on the dash right where most install a aftermarket tach and have nothing but good to say about it. I can read the engines health and load as I drive down the road. I doubt it could show a 1" Hg difference at WOT though but it's still very useful.
Thx for posting your results and experience with those vendor valvetrain parts and combinations. That particular vendor trolls the forums here but I read just as many of his failures as those that seem to work from him. Getting the results out there helps us all to see the truth and at least make a better decision.
I am surprised to read your AFR heads were not satisfactory. Makes me wonder if some AFR heads are bought bare and assembled with lessor parts to get the price down for a secondary supplier?
Thx.
Thx for posting your results and experience with those vendor valvetrain parts and combinations. That particular vendor trolls the forums here but I read just as many of his failures as those that seem to work from him. Getting the results out there helps us all to see the truth and at least make a better decision.
I am surprised to read your AFR heads were not satisfactory. Makes me wonder if some AFR heads are bought bare and assembled with lessor parts to get the price down for a secondary supplier?
Thx.
Just to give you guys an idea about the AFR heads, here is what I found. Keep in mind these heads were brand new right out of the box. AFR Eliminator 195cc, 65cc chamber heads with 2.05" intake valve, not the comp version head. I was going to sell these and leave my Dart heads on, but decided to replace the heads with the AFRs.
The run-out on the seats were anywhere from .008" - .010" which is way too much. Had to re-cut the seats and now are .001 - .002", .003" is max tolerance. You can only get them as close as the guides are good. Here is the springs heights. Spring pocket dimensions were off as well, but shimable. Could I have used these heads right out of the box and bolt them on? Sure, but they wouldn't be right IMO. It's ALWAYS a good idea to check the heads before bolting them on, new or not.
Here are the measured dimensions:
Head#1 = .040" highest to lowest
1.770
1.800
1.810
1.775
1.775
1.800
1.800
1.770
Head#2 = .030" highest to lowest
1.800
1.810
1.780
1.780
1.810
1.800
1.810
1.790
As for the Straub cam, VERY disappointed with that situation. Had nothing but excuses about the springs that they sent... "must have made a mistake by me and sent you the wrong springs" to... "I would have NEVER told you to set the seat pressure to 110# with the cam I sent you, it's too big".
WELL, I have the document that Straub sent me (cam spec card) that CLEARLY says Seat Pressure: 110#, Max Open: 375. Then Straub tells me he must have made a mistake. Are you Frickin' kiddin' me?! Do you have any idea how much you just cost me for your "mistake"? Time, gas, lodging, food, dyno time, pulling the motor again, tear motor apart, gaskets etc... OMG, I was livid to say the least. This was after my machinist said those springs will not work correctly and even called him and asked to make sure that was not a typo. I yanked the cam out and a new Bullet Racing cam will be going in Monday when it arrives and hopefully get the motor back together and installed this next week and off to Lake Havasu...again to spend even more cash. Ugh!
Last edited by Buccaneer; 10-07-2017 at 05:50 PM.
#34
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St. Jude Donor '05
WOW...did you notify AFR of their problem, that sounds pretty sloppy.
Lot of friggin work & money down the tubes
Lot of friggin work & money down the tubes
#35
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Check out this three part vid on heads, specifically AFR. The guy that did these vids is a good friend of my machinist and he ONLY does AFR BBC heads, nothing else. Sound familiar? Enjoy.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Last edited by Buccaneer; 10-06-2017 at 09:10 PM.
#36
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St. Jude Donor '05
never heard of the guy
thats a lot sounds like some updating over there needs to be done;can only imagine how a cheap ebay head is.
They may not be TOP shelf but pretty decent shouldnt have to be doing that right after purchasing. This hobby cost$ to do things right.
thats a lot sounds like some updating over there needs to be done;can only imagine how a cheap ebay head is.
They may not be TOP shelf but pretty decent shouldnt have to be doing that right after purchasing. This hobby cost$ to do things right.
#37
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2002
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. .... ....?..
As for the Straub cam, VERY disappointed with that situation. Had nothing but excuses about the springs that they sent, must have made a mistake by me and sent you the wrong springs to... I would have NEVER told you to set the seat pressure to 110# with the cam I sent you, it's too big.
WELL, I have the document that Straub sent me (cam spec card) that CLEARLY says Seat Pressure: 110#, Max Open: 375. Then Straub tells me he must have made a mistake. Are you Frickin' kiddin' me?! Do you have any idea how much you just cost me for your "mistake"? Time, gas, lodging, food, dyno time, pulling the motor again, tear motor apart, gaskets etc... OMG, I was livid to say the least. This was after my machinist said those springs will not work correctly and even called him and asked to make sure that was not a typo. I yancked the cam out and a new Bullet Racing cam will be going in Monday when it arrives and hopefully get the motor back together and installed this next week and off to Lake Havasu...again to spend even more cash. Ugh!
As for the Straub cam, VERY disappointed with that situation. Had nothing but excuses about the springs that they sent, must have made a mistake by me and sent you the wrong springs to... I would have NEVER told you to set the seat pressure to 110# with the cam I sent you, it's too big.
WELL, I have the document that Straub sent me (cam spec card) that CLEARLY says Seat Pressure: 110#, Max Open: 375. Then Straub tells me he must have made a mistake. Are you Frickin' kiddin' me?! Do you have any idea how much you just cost me for your "mistake"? Time, gas, lodging, food, dyno time, pulling the motor again, tear motor apart, gaskets etc... OMG, I was livid to say the least. This was after my machinist said those springs will not work correctly and even called him and asked to make sure that was not a typo. I yancked the cam out and a new Bullet Racing cam will be going in Monday when it arrives and hopefully get the motor back together and installed this next week and off to Lake Havasu...again to spend even more cash. Ugh!
#38
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
never heard of the guy
thats a lot sounds like some updating over there needs to be done;can only imagine how a cheap ebay head is.
They may not be TOP shelf but pretty decent shouldn't have to be doing that right after purchasing. This hobby cost$ to do things right.
thats a lot sounds like some updating over there needs to be done;can only imagine how a cheap ebay head is.
They may not be TOP shelf but pretty decent shouldn't have to be doing that right after purchasing. This hobby cost$ to do things right.
My machinist has a $250 Pro-Mod that he races for money and the cost of my heads pail in comparison to his, but that doesn't mean that the cheaper head cost should suffer in quality when AFR brags about their "quality" head workmanship. Things that make you wonder and say Mmmmm... I am in no way an AFR diehard fan, but the heads now on the motor will work a lot better with the new cam than the Dart Pro1 heads especially over 3,500rpm that I had been using for the last 12 years on that motor.
I hope if nothing else with this sample data that it will help someone along the way when they build a new motor and may save them even more money down the road in the long run. Enjoy all.
Last edited by Buccaneer; 10-07-2017 at 05:43 PM.
#39
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Well, new heads are on and everything checks out now with them. The new cam went in yesterday and is only a .25* off and I'm good with that. Much better than the 2* off with Straub cam. Took care of vacuum issue with bolts.
Going to try and put the motor back in Wed with time permitting, if not it will go back in this week sometime.
Going to try and put the motor back in Wed with time permitting, if not it will go back in this week sometime.
#40
Well, new heads are on and everything checks out now with them. The new cam went in yesterday and is only a .25* off and I'm good with that. Much better than the 2* off with Straub cam. Took care of vacuum issue with bolts.
Going to try and put the motor back in Wed with time permitting, if not it will go back in this week sometime.
Going to try and put the motor back in Wed with time permitting, if not it will go back in this week sometime.