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Old 11-10-2017, 08:12 AM
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rangepony69
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Default Quadrajet vs

Just on the last leg of restoration of my 69 350/350 Corvette. I've done the car about 95% stock as it has plenty of power for me and I like the original look. Thinking about weather to re-build my quadrajet or move to edelbrock carburetor.......

Question: what are the CFM numbers for my stock 1969 Quad and does anyone recommend this move? Quads are pretty complicated for me but that might just be me.....

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12-14-2017, 01:42 PM
lars
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At the risk of getting on the receiving end of the wrath of the Holley fans, GM's use of the Holley carbs was a marketing tool that had little to do with performance in the late '60s.

All performance enthusiasts in the late 50s and early 60s knew that the factory carbs of the time (AFBs, WCFBs and Rochester 4-Jets) were not performance carbs - they were cfm limited, and the way to achieve a performance gain was to install a Holley, or to run multiple carbs. That was true at the time, and Holley had the "performance" reputation that it deserved.

When introduced in 1966 on some cars, and on all GM cars in '67, the Q-Jet had no such performance reputation, even though its 750 cfm rating and excellent characteristics made it equivalent to a Holley in terms of actual horsepower numbers. The Holley still had the "magic" reputation, and GM capitalized on that by using it on their "performance" cars for as long as possible. The marketing was brilliant, and it worked. The performance crowd wanted a Holley. GM sold them a Holley. The fact that the Q-Jet could produce the same power numbers is completely irrelevant - it's marketing. GM did the same thing in later years with twin cam engines: In standard tune, you can make the same power out of a single cam engine and bigger valves, but twin cams must be performance. Rear disc brakes on passenger car sedans is another example: Your really think you need discs on the back of a Saturn? Heck it sells cars - it's marketing.

I've done quite a bit of dyno testing, and I've run Holley and Q-Jet carbs of the same cfm capacity back-to-back on the same engines. With both carbs correctly tuned and maximized for best power and air/fuel mixture, the Holley and Q-Jet (of the same size) will run virtually identical at peak power and wide open throttle. The Q-Jet will produce better torque and power at the low- to mid-range due to the smaller primary venturies and a well-refined transition circuit.

As for the Q-Jet being "an emissions carb:" GM was aware of the upcoming emissions requirements, and realized the need for a carb that could be updated and refined as the requirements emerged and became more stringent. The Q-Jet design allows the carb to be tailored for optimum efficiency through all its circuits and transitions, allowing fuel and air bleeds to be custom tailored in every circuit of the carb. The fact that the same carb design can be used and precisely set up for every GM application to meet the emissions requirements makes the carb a "well tunable" carb in my book - not just an "emissions carb." But a carb that has the capability to be well tuned with so many variables also has the capability of being really well messed up by someone altering that level of tuning... And therein comes its reputation as a "Quadrajunk" and all the other words you've heard: Any carb becomes a bad running piece of junk once its tuning has been completely messed up and altered by someone drilling out the air bleeds, drilling the IFRs, randomly changing jetting, and throwing away critical parts, such as the secondary airvalve rod.

Any properly-sized carb will run about the same as any other properly-sized carb if the two carbs are both correctly tuned. A well set up Q-Jet is pretty tough to beat - I have the test data to prove it. A badly tuned Q-Jet can run just as bad as a badly-tuned Holley, and a well-tuned Holley will run a lot better than an altered, damaged Q-Jet. Go figure...

Lars
Old 11-10-2017, 08:58 AM
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mobird
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Originally Posted by rangepony69
Just on the last leg of restoration of my 69 350/350 Corvette. I've done the car about 95% stock as it has plenty of power for me and I like the original look. Thinking about weather to re-build my quadrajet or move to edelbrock carburetor.......

Question: what are the CFM numbers for my stock 1969 Quad and does anyone recommend this move? Quads are pretty complicated for me but that might just be me.....
A well tuned Quadrajet will run as good or better than any other carb. It actually has the best of both worlds, small primaries which give you good fuel economy, and large secondaries for power.


The Quadrajet is variable CFM, meaning the secondaries only open as much as they need to based on vacuum. Normally they are rated something like 700 or 750 CFM max ( which is plenty for you).


Either read up on how to rebuild your Quadrajet, or send it to Lars. I'm sure plenty of other forum members will chime in; Lars has rebuilt many of their carbs, and has always been very helpful when I've asked him questions.


Plus if you're keeping your car mostly original, you might as well keep the Quad!
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:31 AM
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Here are a couple of other Qjet threads from this week you might be interested in reading:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...tor-gurus.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...r-upgrade.html
Old 11-10-2017, 09:59 AM
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Actually the Qjet is NOT a vacuum secondary carb according to LARS who is an expert and rebuilds/tunes them as well on this forum. Basically, a qjet operates according to the demand of the air/fuel requirements of the engine. It was GM's attempt to close monitor the air/fuel of a motor (like mechanical fuel injection) through a carb...in my opinion, it is overly complicated for what it is designed to do and I never liked the qjet since when it goes wrong, they can be difficult to correct and properly tune. GM finally gave up on the Qjet in the early 80's and you don't hear too many folks today who say I will dump my carb for a Qjet...says something.

I have had a Holley 4175 650 CFM vacuum secondary Direct Qjet replacement carb since 1985 on my 78 L-82. It has been a joy! Easy to rebuild/super easy to tune with standard Holley main metering jets, uses a standard vacuum secondary spring set to adjust the opening of the secondaries based on vacuum, and will bolt right onto a spreadbore manifold with virtually no problems.The Holley 4175 also uses small primaries and big secondaries exactly like the Qjet. Gas mileage with my holley is the same as it was with the Qjet..no difference in real life driving.

As for CFM question, most qjets were rated at 750 CFM but some were 800 CFM but really a moot point since this carb only flows supposedly what the engine needs:

Everything is here:

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mu...s/1281070.html

Last edited by jb78L-82; 11-10-2017 at 10:01 AM.
Old 11-10-2017, 10:32 AM
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Kevova
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Q jets are more misunderstood, and are pretty simple. Actually GM kept the Q jets longer than the should have. EFI should have come out across the board in 80-81. Because carb is old and you are uncertain I would send it out. There are videos out there relating to overhauling and correcting worn throttle shafts and leaking well plugs.
Old 11-10-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rangepony69
Just on the last leg of restoration of my 69 350/350 Corvette. I've done the car about 95% stock as it has plenty of power for me and I like the original look. Thinking about weather to re-build my quadrajet or move to edelbrock carburetor.......

Question: what are the CFM numbers for my stock 1969 Quad and does anyone recommend this move? Quads are pretty complicated for me but that might just be me.....
A well tuned Quadrajet is a dream to drive, but they are a little more complicated than aftermarket alternatives.

Most Q-jets before 1972 were 750CFM. Later ones were 800CFM.

Here's a link to help you identify what you have: http://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-st...ication-guide/
Old 11-10-2017, 11:05 AM
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mobird
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Originally Posted by jb78L-82
Actually the Qjet is NOT a vacuum secondary carb according to LARS who is an expert and rebuilds/tunes them as well on this forum. Basically, a qjet operates according to the demand of the air/fuel requirements of the engine. It was GM's attempt to close monitor the air/fuel of a motor (like mechanical fuel injection) through a carb...in my opinion, it is overly complicated for what it is designed to do and I never liked the qjet since when it goes wrong, they can be difficult to correct and properly tune. GM finally gave up on the Qjet in the early 80's and you don't hear too many folks today who say I will dump my carb for a Qjet...says something.

I have had a Holley 4175 650 CFM vacuum secondary Direct Qjet replacement carb since 1985 on my 78 L-82. It has been a joy! Easy to rebuild/super easy to tune with standard Holley main metering jets, uses a standard vacuum secondary spring set to adjust the opening of the secondaries based on vacuum, and will bolt right onto a spreadbore manifold with virtually no problems.The Holley 4175 also uses small primaries and big secondaries exactly like the Qjet. Gas mileage with my holley is the same as it was with the Qjet..no difference in real life driving.

As for CFM question, most qjets were rated at 750 CFM but some were 800 CFM but really a moot point since this carb only flows supposedly what the engine needs:

Everything is here:

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mu...s/1281070.html

Uh I did not call it a vacuum secondary carb. I said the secondaries OPEN as much as they need to based on vacuum. The mechanical linkage opens the lower butterflies manually based on throttle position, but the secondary valve up top will not open until needed based on vacuum.


For the point I was making to the OP wondering about the CFM rating of the carb, it operates more like a vacuum carb (although it's technically both). Because unlike a mechanical 750 CFM carb where the secondaries would fully open with WOT, the secondaries only open as much as needed based on vacuum. So the Qjet is usable on small engines all the way up to big blocks, makes it one of the most versatile carbs around.
Old 11-10-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mobird
Uh I did not call it a vacuum secondary carb. I said the secondaries OPEN as much as they need to based on vacuum. The mechanical linkage opens the lower butterflies manually based on throttle position, but the secondary valve up top will not open until needed based on vacuum.


For the point I was making to the OP wondering about the CFM rating of the carb, it operates more like a vacuum carb (although it's technically both). Because unlike a mechanical 750 CFM carb where the secondaries would fully open with WOT, the secondaries only open as much as needed based on vacuum. So the Qjet is usable on small engines all the way up to big blocks, makes it one of the most versatile carbs around.

Was not really directed at you but more to the point that Lars has made the point a couple of times. I do think it is somewhat a technicality in that the qjet uses to vacuum to signal the secondaries opening and they open only as much as is needed at that point in time versus a well tuned Holley vacuum secondary will open according to vacuum but can be tuned pretty precisely using the simple Holley secondary spring kit for most situations....

I still do think that the Qjet is overcomplicated for the job it needs to do and trying to precisely meter fuel through a carb body probably was not a great idea.....especially since mechanical fuel injection had been around for most of the time that the Qjet was made and GM would have been much better off developing the mechanical fuel injection model back then rather than trying to save money with the qjet....just me

And again, the fact that the market never adopted the qjet model to any degree really is quite telling....In hindsight, 20-30-40 years later, the qjet seems really great but in reality back in the day it was just OK....nostalgia tends to cloud sometimes the reality....For the occasional cruiser today the Qjet is fine but I would not consider it great by any means..its decent certainly though

Last edited by jb78L-82; 11-10-2017 at 11:36 AM.
Old 11-10-2017, 11:52 AM
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The Q-jet is a great carb if it's tuned properly.

I rebuilt mine via Cliff Ruggles' book which is available on amazon.

Anytime something is not properly understood it can appear overly complicated. The Q-jet is not complicated you just need to understand the various circuits and how they function and interact with the other circuits.

Mine runs very much like fuel injection and certainly much better than any early fuel injection that I have had experience with ever did.

I would recommend keeping the q-jet and either rebuild it or get it re-built for you.

The secondary air doors are not really vacuum operated. That leads on to think that the level of vacuum has something to do with the how far the air door opens.
There is a vacuum diaphragm that latches the air doors closed until sufficiently low vacuum is sensed to keep the air doors from opening.

How far the air doors open is air demand sensitive. So The volume of air controls how far they open not the vacuum level in inches of hg specifically.
The volume is dictated by how much air the engine can or is demanding.

Last edited by REELAV8R; 11-10-2017 at 11:53 AM.
Old 11-10-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jb78L-82
Was not really directed at you but more to the point that Lars has made the point a couple of times. I do think it is somewhat a technicality in that the qjet uses to vacuum to signal the secondaries opening and they open only as much as is needed at that point in time versus a well tuned Holley vacuum secondary will open according to vacuum but can be tuned pretty precisely using the simple Holley secondary spring kit for most situations....

I still do think that the Qjet is overcomplicated for the job it needs to do and trying to precisely meter fuel through a carb body probably was not a great idea.....especially since mechanical fuel injection had been around for most of the time that the Qjet was made and GM would have been much better off developing the mechanical fuel injection model back then rather than trying to save money with the qjet....just me

And again, the fact that the market never adopted the qjet model to any degree really is quite telling....In hindsight, 20-30-40 years later, the qjet seems really great but in reality back in the day it was just OK....nostalgia tends to cloud sometimes the reality....For the occasional cruiser today the Qjet is fine but I would not consider it great by any means..its decent certainly though

How much have you worked on the Qjet? It is not complicated AT ALL. It is frustrating when people who don't know what they are talking about just parrot that information because they've heard it before.


It is actually a fairly simple carb to work on. And I would wager that a well running Qjet would equal or outperform a well running Holley in every single aspect.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:01 PM
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mobird
How much have you worked on the Qjet? It is not complicated AT ALL. It is frustrating when people who don't know what they are talking about just parrot that information because they've heard it before.


It is actually a fairly simple carb to work on. And I would wager that a well running Qjet would equal or outperform a well running Holley in every single aspect.
I have no experience with a Holley, but I can attest to how well the Q-jet will function if it's tuned right.
I find the Q-jet not significantly more complicated than other carbs I've worked on.
I appreciate the engineering that went into the Q-jet.

It is sensitive to small changes and still can operate over a very wide range of conditions, engine sizes and HP demands.

It's excellent in it's design. It's manufacturing quality may not have always been excellent, but that is not a reflection on the engineering.

Last edited by REELAV8R; 11-10-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:28 PM
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Nothing wrong with a qj but I have taught myself to tune my Holley 650 dp and I'm happy with it. I do believe the Holley is easier to tune with lots of parts readily available at any local speed shop. The Holley can be tuned to provide excellent fuel economy also. The engine doesn't care how the fuel gets into the cylinders as long as its at the right afr to provide max fuel economy under cruise. Either carb can do this when tuned.

Edit: CFM rating is not always the same between brands of carbs.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...r-numbers.html

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Old 11-10-2017, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mobird
How much have you worked on the Qjet? It is not complicated AT ALL. It is frustrating when people who don't know what they are talking about just parrot that information because they've heard it before.


It is actually a fairly simple carb to work on. And I would wager that a well running Qjet would equal or outperform a well running Holley in every single aspect.
Now that is a big claim.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:35 PM
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http://www.gtoforum.com/f170/400-dyn...parison-37080/


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Old 11-10-2017, 03:30 PM
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Thanks for all the thought put into the responses. I have little experience with the Qjet other than when I took the screws out and 1 million parts fell on the workbench. I've built a number of carbs in my day and have never seen so many little pieces......that said, who is this Lars person and how do I get in touch with him?
Old 11-10-2017, 03:37 PM
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The number one reason QuadraJets are a pain in the *** is because they came on these cars new, 36-48 years ago and have had god-knows-what done to them by owners, "professionals" and unprofessionals.

A brand new Holley, Edelbrock, etc will not have been handicapped by tweaks.

They take a little bit more learning than a Holley, but there's quite a lot of info now thanks to the experts (Lars, Cliff Ruggles) and a number of people who have dove in and understand how to set these things up.

The off-idle throttle response of a well-tuned QJet is great.

To your original question, I personally would never shelve a Q-Jet for an Edelbrock - that's a stop in the wrong direction in every regard, IMO.

My personal preference is for the Q-Jet, but I've rebuilt (and in some cases modified) 10-15 of them in the last couple years and so I do have a little bit more familiarity than the average vette owner.

It helps to know how all the systems are supposed to work before you dive in.
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:41 PM
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Search the forum for Lars and send him a message. Probably one of the most knowledgeable and most helpful people here.
Old 11-10-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rangepony69
Thanks for all the thought put into the responses. I have little experience with the Qjet other than when I took the screws out and 1 million parts fell on the workbench. I've built a number of carbs in my day and have never seen so many little pieces......that said, who is this Lars person and how do I get in touch with him?


His email is V8FastCars@msn.com


Ask him for his Qjet tuning papers. He will send you a great pdf with all the info you need.
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Shark Racer
To your original question, I personally would never shelve a Q-Jet for an Edelbrock - that's a stop in the wrong direction in every regard, IMO.
I agree with this, the only thing the AFB carbs have going for them is they hold a tune well and can be made to drive adequately pretty easy.


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