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So I bought my first C3 (1978 L82) on 11/5. As most of you would expect, I am immediately going in and changing things out.
Now, when I bought the Corvette, I was originally told that "it had a little play in the steering wheel over 35.", and after I drove 3 hours to check it out, I found out that it was not a "little play". Its dangerous over 35.
So I was going to rebuild the front suspension anyway, but now it has been moved up my list so I can get this baby back on the road ASAP...
My question comes here: Is this everything I should need to do a good rebuild and take care of any issues? Are all of these parts compatible? Are these prices OK? Keep in mind, I am wrench savvy but definitely still learning!
Thanks in advance for any advice/feelings/Dos-And-Dont's.
Beautiful car and welcome to the forum.
I would do the moog kit. Before you purchase check out some of the vendors on the forum. I went through Van Steel who gave great advice and a nice discount to forum members.
Others will recommend poly bushings, and both have their positives and negatives but it's up to you.
As far as steering I would check out replacing your OEM box for a Borgenson box. There are plenty of threads on the forum to research.
Beautiful car and welcome to the forum.
I would do the moog kit. Before you purchase check out some of the vendors on the forum. I went through Van Steel who gave great advice and a nice discount to forum members.
Others will recommend poly bushings, and both have their positives and negatives but it's up to you.
As far as steering I would check out replacing your OEM box for a Borgenson box. There are plenty of threads on the forum to research.
What he said.. I went with the Borgenson box and put as much caster that I could into the front end.. BIG differance, I no longer have to "chase" the car with the steering wheel. I can now "point-n-shoot" the car through corners.
Beautiful car and welcome to the forum.
I would do the moog kit. Before you purchase check out some of the vendors on the forum. I went through Van Steel who gave great advice and a nice discount to forum members.
Others will recommend poly bushings, and both have their positives and negatives but it's up to you.
As far as steering I would check out replacing your OEM box for a Borgenson box. There are plenty of threads on the forum to research.
Which Moog kit are you referring to? One for the tie rod/ball joint kit? Or are you just referring to the Moog springs i have shown? Any chance you have a link?
Originally Posted by BlowAMouse
What he said.. I went with the Borgenson box and put as much caster that I could into the front end.. BIG differance, I no longer have to "chase" the car with the steering wheel. I can now "point-n-shoot" the car through corners.
Most of the vendors have kits to rebuild your front suspension or you can purchase the individual parts and pieces. Moog parts are usually more expensive due to the better quality of the parts and rubber for the bushings.
I would call the vendors and have them help you with what you need.
I bought all my suspension parts through Van Steel and my Borgensen steering box through Summit Racing.
I was unable to open the link attached.
Borgeson Steering box and Moog front end parts - the problem solver parts add the extra degrees you need. I would also add a tie bar between the front upper A frames.
I did this on my 71 and I drives like a brand new 2016 car.
The power steering cylinder is really power assist and this is what makes the car feel funny. When I go from my stock 72 to the 71 it's night and day.
Just be aware that sloppy rear trailing arms can sometimes give the feeling of sloppy steering as the rear will tend to self steer.
I got the Moog parts from Rock Auto. Tie bar from a subscriber here on the forum.
Moog parts are probably the best you can get. I had my OEM steering box custom blue printed/rebuilt by GTR1999 and I can assure you I have ZERO play in the stock steering box with the stock system after the rebuild and can point and shoot through corners as well at will:
For nice, cost effective "kits" with very good quality parts (and technical assistance if you need it), give a call to Van Steel. Talk to either Dan Dorsett or Paul and tell them Lars with Tuned by Lars Corvettes in Denver told you to call.
For nice, cost effective "kits" with very good quality parts (and technical assistance if you need it), give a call to Van Steel. Talk to either Dan Dorsett or Paul and tell them Lars with Tuned by Lars Corvettes in Denver told you to call.
For nice, cost effective "kits" with very good quality parts (and technical assistance if you need it), give a call to Van Steel. Talk to either Dan Dorsett or Paul and tell them Lars with Tuned by Lars Corvettes in Denver told you to call.
Thank you for this! I will be calling them in the next few days!
Originally Posted by jb78L-82
Moog parts are probably the best you can get. I had my OEM steering box custom blue printed/rebuilt by GTR1999 and I can assure you I have ZERO play in the stock steering box with the stock system after the rebuild and can point and shoot through corners as well at will:
Poor Will, dont know why you guys have such a vendetta against him In all seriousness, thank you for the advice! And beautiful L-82!
Originally Posted by BLUE1972
Borgeson Steering box and Moog front end parts - the problem solver parts add the extra degrees you need. I would also add a tie bar between the front upper A frames.
I did this on my 71 and I drives like a brand new 2016 car.
The power steering cylinder is really power assist and this is what makes the car feel funny. When I go from my stock 72 to the 71 it's night and day.
Just be aware that sloppy rear trailing arms can sometimes give the feeling of sloppy steering as the rear will tend to self steer.
I got the Moog parts from Rock Auto. Tie bar from a subscriber here on the forum.
Yeah it sounds like I will def. be switching to the Moog front suspension and doing the Borg box ASAP. If funding is down, is it a bad idea to do the borg box at a different time (like a month of two after?) or is it best just to get it all done at once?
Last edited by VirginiaVette78; 11-17-2017 at 08:11 AM.
Reason: putting my words in a quote box... oops!
Check your rag joint also - I had the suspension on our 79 pretty tight (even with the old steering box), and then it started getting 'loose' again a couple of months ago. It turned out to be the rag joint (replacing it with a Flaming River u-joint soon).
While rebuilding the front suspension is all good (and probably recommended if it's still original) - I'd try to figure out where the 'dangerous' play is, and concentrate on that first. It could be the steering box, the rag joint, or a really bad alignment - none of which would be fixed by just replacing the front suspension parts.
My take on the steering box - if you're going to need to replace the control valve, the cylinder, AND get the steering box rebuilt....then I personally would go with a Borgeson box (unless you wanted to keep everything 'original'), as the cost will be about the same (or maybe even cheaper).
And I agree - that 'Will' guy must have a tough time crossing the street when these guys are out for a drive.
Check your rag joint also - I had the suspension on our 79 pretty tight (even with the old steering box), and then it started getting 'loose' again a couple of months ago. It turned out to be the rag joint (replacing it with a Flaming River u-joint soon).
While rebuilding the front suspension is all good (and probably recommended if it's still original) - I'd try to figure out where the 'dangerous' play is, and concentrate on that first. It could be the steering box, the rag joint, or a really bad alignment - none of which would be fixed by just replacing the front suspension parts.
My take on the steering box - if you're going to need to replace the control valve, the cylinder, AND get the steering box rebuilt....then I personally would go with a Borgeson box (unless you wanted to keep everything 'original'), as the cost will be about the same (or maybe even cheaper).
And I agree - that 'Will' guy must have a tough time crossing the street when these guys are out for a drive.
Great advice. Thank you! In my mind, if its original and doesnt need to be replaced now, then it will need to be replaced soon, so it needs to be replaced now
Originally Posted by silver74vette
I would do it all at once, a lot of rework going back in. Also you would only need to get one alignment.
I'm adding to this post to help you manage expectations, and also to consolidate the list of things to buy. I did the borgeson upgrade too, and also added the frame support from Ridetech and EVERYTHING suspension related. Jb79-L82 has good experience to share on suspension.
I cant underscore enough the importance of getting the rear suspension tightened up first before going for alignment. Also, if you're doing any engine pulling or exaust manifold work that involves removing the exhaust manifolds, thats a GREAT time to do the suspension.
hint, remove the old box from car, THEN remove pitman arm; its easier that way.
Shopping list:
moog kit: all bushings, tie rods, ball joints
new springs. (I did 550 springs, cut 1/4 coil to seat in frame/lower control arm pockets)
new rag joint.
borgeson box
borgeson box support (ridetech)
bilstein hd shocks
optional: if you have access to machine shop mill, mill the upper control arm cross shafts 1/4 inch to rear of car. This will get you up to 5 degrees caster. Otherwise get offset cross shafts for upper control arms. The borg box likes as much castor as you can get.
when replacing box, i removed steering column. This is not necessary, but i found it easier to smack the collaspable shaft in to get the clearance needed. Do a search, there's lots of posts about the process. If you have headers, there might a clearance issue, but i did not have an issue. Its tight, but managable.
be sure to mark column, shaft, ujoint location with sharpie. I did mine twice because i installed it wrong. The canceling cam did line up. Mike Dyer helped me through the process.
its a fantastic upgrade. Good luck and welcome!
If you want to "go nuclear" (which I understand, sloppy steering is just beyond unacceptable) replace everything in the lists above.
An alternative is to try to troubleshoot where the play is coming from and focus your $$ where the problem is.
As mentioned the play is often in the steering box, but can also be in rag joints, the steering column bearings, or even the steering wheel itself. (I was replacing my steering wheel horn button and while in there figured out that part of my sloppy steering was just the 6 screws actually attaching the steering wheel to the column; 2 literal minutes with a screw driver and $0 it was perfect again.) -Having said that, I did a Steeroids rack conversion, too...
On the steering box itself the options in order of least expensive to most are:
1. open it up and just tighten it yourself (works sometimes)
2. Get the stock steering box rebuilt (GTR 1999)
3. Borgeson Conversion (the cost jumps up quite a bit at this point) -don't forget the frame reinforcement bracket
4. Rack and Pinion conversion
I won't comment on front suspension; just steering as I find suspension to be an insanely complex subject and I just don't have a good handle on it. (I'm just copying well-known suspension setups from the major vette suppliers and knowledgeable members on here.)
Adam
Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; 11-17-2017 at 12:31 PM.
I'm adding to this post to help you manage expectations, and also to consolidate the list of things to buy. I did the borgeson upgrade too, and also added the frame support from Ridetech and EVERYTHING suspension related. Jb79-L82 has good experience to share on suspension.
I cant underscore enough the importance of getting the rear suspension tightened up first before going for alignment. Also, if you're doing any engine pulling or exaust manifold work that involves removing the exhaust manifolds, thats a GREAT time to do the suspension.
hint, remove the old box from car, THEN remove pitman arm; its easier that way.
Shopping list:
moog kit: all bushings, tie rods, ball joints
new springs. (I did 550 springs, cut 1/4 coil to seat in frame/lower control arm pockets)
new rag joint.
borgeson box
borgeson box support (ridetech)
bilstein hd shocks
optional: if you have access to machine shop mill, mill the upper control arm cross shafts 1/4 inch to rear of car. This will get you up to 5 degrees caster. Otherwise get offset cross shafts for upper control arms. The borg box likes as much castor as you can get.
when replacing box, i removed steering column. This is not necessary, but i found it easier to smack the collaspable shaft in to get the clearance needed. Do a search, there's lots of posts about the process. If you have headers, there might a clearance issue, but i did not have an issue. Its tight, but managable.
be sure to mark column, shaft, ujoint location with sharpie. I did mine twice because i installed it wrong. The canceling cam did line up. Mike Dyer helped me through the process.
its a fantastic upgrade. Good luck and welcome!
thanks so much for this. Great write up for my shopping and to do list. Gotta admit, being a younger guy (27) with an older car, it's quite intimidating looking at the to do list and then half the time not knowing half of what you are doing/need to do. What you wrote up was precisely what I needed - buy these things, and here's some tips for putting them on.
gold star for you.
Originally Posted by NewbVetteGuy
If you want to "go nuclear" (which I understand, sloppy steering is just beyond unacceptable) replace everything in the lists above.
An alternative is to try to troubleshoot where the play is coming from and focus your $$ where the problem is.
As mentioned the play is often in the steering box, but can also be in rag joints, the steering column bearings, or even the steering wheel itself. (I was replacing my steering wheel horn button and while in there figured out that part of my sloppy steering was just the 6 screws actually attaching the steering wheel to the column; 2 literal minutes with a screw driver and $0 it was perfect again.) -Having said that, I did a Steeroids rack conversion, too...
On the steering box itself the options in order of least expensive to most are:
1. open it up and just tighten it yourself (works sometimes)
2. Get the stock steering box rebuilt (GTR 1999)
3. Borgeson Conversion (the cost jumps up quite a bit at this point) -don't forget the frame reinforcement bracket
4. Rack and Pinion conversion
I won't comment on front suspension; just steering as I find suspension to be an insanely complex subject and I just don't have a good handle on it. (I'm just copying well-known suspension setups from the major vette suppliers and knowledgeable members on here.)
Adam
Maybe I will get lucky because I'm actually ordering all new internals for the steering wheel horn area as well (waiting for December 25, until then my life commander has me on a "no buy" policy). Hopefully once I replace all of that, my steering issue will be a thing of that past. Looks like Bubba may have had this car for a while because nothing on the horn button was really connected, just glued, and the telescopic little star bolt was non existent, replaced with a bolt and no retention screws lol.
Some forum members love to suggest what you should buy because they're not paying for it and it becomes expensive. You don't need some of the parts or quality of what they suggest e.g. Borgenson steering assembly, Bilstein shocks. That's expensive and totally unnecessary. You may need shocks if they are worn out. And if so, you don't need to spend $100/shock. More guys here than not don't have a Borgenson. You don't need it.
If all your wanting to do is cruise around in a cool car, keep it simple and buy only the parts you need at a reasonable price and save the rest for gas. Otoh, if you have a big budget, by all means, spend away whether its needed or not.
Some forum members love to suggest what you should buy because they're not paying for it and it becomes expensive. You don't need some of the parts or quality of what they suggest e.g. Borgenson steering assembly, Bilstein shocks. That's expensive and totally unnecessary. You may need shocks if they are worn out. And if so, you don't need to spend $100/shock. More guys here than not don't have a Borgenson. You don't need it.
If all your wanting to do is cruise around in a cool car, keep it simple and buy only the parts you need at a reasonable price and save the rest for gas. Otoh, if you have a big budget, by all means, spend away whether its needed or not.
I'm getting ready to retire. I still rely on my pay check for everyday expenses. I'm building a hot rod, spending what I can, cash and not going into debt. I have a nice 73 big block driver that most everything works and works well. Ive been collecting parts for over a year which are stored in my garage until I have everything I need to pull the body and do a complete resto mod. My start date keeps getting pushed back for time, life, and affording the parts. Have a plan, save your money and buy quality parts. If a Borgensen box and moog suspension is not in your budget, then rebuild the OEM parts and enjoy life, and Corvette ownership. A classic Corvette is still one of the coolest machines out on the road, all stock or highly modified.
Some forum members love to suggest what you should buy because they're not paying for it and it becomes expensive. You don't need some of the parts or quality of what they suggest e.g. Borgenson steering assembly, Bilstein shocks. That's expensive and totally unnecessary. You may need shocks if they are worn out. And if so, you don't need to spend $100/shock. More guys here than not don't have a Borgenson. You don't need it.
If all your wanting to do is cruise around in a cool car, keep it simple and buy only the parts you need at a reasonable price and save the rest for gas. Otoh, if you have a big budget, by all means, spend away whether its needed or not.
That's actually a good reality check. My budget got well blown when it went from just front suspension rebuild, to rebuild with Moog suspension, Bil. Shocks, Moog Springs, and a Borg Box.
I do have a steering issue to fix, so I think all of those parts are necessary, but maybe ill tone down the cost a bit. But then again, I do want a QUALITY build. Decisions, Decisions..
Originally Posted by OldCarBum
I'm getting ready to retire. I still rely on my pay check for everyday expenses. I'm building a hot rod, spending what I can, cash and not going into debt. I have a nice 73 big block driver that most everything works and works well. Ive been collecting parts for over a year which are stored in my garage until I have everything I need to pull the body and do a complete resto mod. My start date keeps getting pushed back for time, life, and affording the parts. Have a plan, save your money and buy quality parts. If a Borgensen box and moog suspension is not in your budget, then rebuild the OEM parts and enjoy life, and Corvette ownership. A classic Corvette is still one of the coolest machines out on the road, all stock or highly modified.
Yeah, my wife is not too happy with the new cost of parts. It keeps adding up!
11-16-2017, 11:19 AM
Advice Needed: Front Suspension
In all seriousness, thank you for the advice! And beautiful L-82!
