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Personally, I wouldn't even consider a 700R4 unless you BOTH don't plan on using the go pedal much and will only run such poor tires you never have traction. It has certain limits that no aftermarket improvements can fully address, which means it's simply not the right transmission for your application no matter what anyone else says about being able to build one for high HP use.
This is just plain wrong. I bought my Art Carr 700R4 from George (gkull). This tranny was built to handle 850 HP and was behind Georges 383 then his 427 for several years. He raced the car on the track and on the drag strip with slicks. I then put it behind my 406 600 plus HP engine in my 80 vette and was not kind to it. It has never given so much as a hickup. After so many years of abuse, it may someday give up the ghost, but I just had the pan off and the fluid was pink and no signs of anything wearing.
There are also C4's running 9's with 700's and 4L60E's. On drag racing web sites you see a lot of people with street strip cars using them, sometimes even with trans brakes. They can be built to withstand a lot of abuse.
This is just plain wrong. I bought my Art Carr 700R4 from George (gkull). This tranny was built to handle 850 HP and was behind Georges 383 then his 427 for several years. He raced the car on the track and on the drag strip with slicks. I then put it behind my 406 600 plus HP engine in my 80 vette and was not kind to it. It has never given so much as a hickup. After so many years of abuse, it may someday give up the ghost, but I just had the pan off and the fluid was pink and no signs of anything wearing.
There are also C4's running 9's with 700's and 4L60E's. On drag racing web sites you see a lot of people with street strip cars using them, sometimes even with trans brakes. They can be built to withstand a lot of abuse.
Mike
I totally agree ..for him to say 700r4 cannot take abuse no mater what improvements you make shows a lack of knowledge on the subject.. I ve seen 9sec cars with them run flawlessly.. .. My own 700r4 was built 9 yrs ago, and I abuse it regularly behind 525HP ... not a peep from it.. sure an electronic controlled unit is user friendly, but also more expensive.. an 8 speed auto would be even better.. but what would that cost?? if you have unlimited budget theres always something better.. for the money a 700r4 is a great choice
Go look for high horsepower 700R4 threads and count how many threads have a topic based around failures and trying to make them last vs them working flawlessly.
Go look for high horsepower 700R4 threads and count how many threads have a topic based around failures and trying to make them last vs them working flawlessly.
I first bought a hopped up 700R4 when they were the rage in every car rag in the mid 80's. Hot Rod and super chevy said to buy the B&M or TCI supposed big block power handling models. I only had a 355 ci and I blew one after another under their warranties. I got fed up and did a search on who was making the highest hp 700's. Locally Art Carr the business who had bought out Art Carr the man had these racing 700R4's for about $4000 including the $1100 dollar multi clutch Torq convertors. It was a lot of money back then, but they had sponsorship money for successful drag racers using their products.
There are other companies that know how to build these up to 850 hp units that are very bullet proof. speed costs money. I actually felt sorry for my rear end and drive line because of the rock hard shifts and I had it toned down to make 1350 u-joints last a little longer
Go look for high horsepower 700R4 threads and count how many threads have a topic based around failures and trying to make them last vs them working flawlessly.
There are a lot of transmission builders but very few that actually know how to build bulletproof trannies. This it what George was alluding to. Who is building your trans is just as important as what trans you choose, maybe more important.
Which is the preferred transmission for high power and reliability, TH350 or TH400? Well, the same applies to 4L60(e) vs 4L80e. It's amazing how many people want to argue otherwise despite it being a fact that the 4L80e starts life as a heavier duty transmission which makes it much easier to build for reliable >500ft-lb applications. The prices for a built 700R4 vs a built 4L80e are similar so the transmission itself it's that much difference in cost. The difference is in the controller, unless you get a manual 4L80e built.
Besides any arguments about strength, The 4L80e has BETTER gear ratios than the 4l60(e) making it nicer to drive. If you're willing to work with the shift controller, you can also make it shift pretty much exactly how you want it to. A few people have one here and have reported that it fits right into the car. I wished I remembered the one members user name because you could get his opinion.
Last edited by lionelhutz; 12-03-2017 at 03:34 PM.
Another thought. Don't worry too much about dropping out of the "cam specs". The "cam specs" are written for a 454 and 496 will tame a bigger cam. Also, in OD, if you floor it, it will just drop a gear or two right back into the power band.
For example, my cam (if I remember correctly) is about 240/245 duration at .050" and right around .625" lift. With EFI, it idles at 850 rpm using 15 degrees of advance and pulls 14" of vacuum at idle. It will pull it 6200 rpm but starts to drop off above 5500 rpm (according to my tuner, that is caused by the exhaust).
Here is my chassis dyno pull when the car was tuned. T-56 Magnum in 4th gear, 3.73 12 bolt rear.
Which is the preferred transmission for high power and reliability, TH350 or TH400? Well, the same applies to 4L60(e) vs 4L80e. It's amazing how many people want to argue otherwise despite it being a fact that the 4L80e starts life as a heavier duty transmission which makes it much easier to build for reliable >500ft-lb applications. The prices for a built 700R4 vs a built 4L80e are similar so the transmission itself it's that much difference in cost. The difference is in the controller, unless you get a manual 4L80e built.
Besides any arguments about strength, The 4L80e has BETTER gear ratios than the 4l60(e) making it nicer to drive. If you're willing to work with the shift controller, you can also make it shift pretty much exactly how you want it to. A few people have one here and have reported that it fits right into the car. I wished I remembered the one members user name because you could get his opinion.
No one was arguing that a 700R4 is stronger than a 4L80E. It's obviously not. The statement I took issue with was; "Personally, I wouldn't even consider a 700R4 unless you BOTH don't plan on using the go pedal much and will only run such poor tires you never have traction. It has certain limits that no aftermarket improvements can fully address, which means it's simply not the right transmission for your application no matter what anyone else says about being able to build one for high HP use." This is just not true. My trans was built to handle 850 horsepower and it's withstood years of abuse, even with slicks on the drag strip. There are 9 second cars running 700R4 transmissions. These are facts, not opinion.
Mike
PS: You can get closer ratio gear sets for the 700R4/4L60E transmissions. The maker claims big improvements in quarter mile times, but from people's actual experience on race forums, they saw little or no improvement in performance.
Put your transmission behind a built 496 big block and let us know how it's working in 5 years.
I've seen 9 seconds cars running 4L60e's. 4L60e transmissions in high HP use get pulled A LOT to be "freshened up".
You just don't let go once you bite onto something do you?
Monster builds a transmission rated at 1000 HP & TQ, others do too. Again, my 700R4 is rated for 850 HP. Most 496's do not make 850 HP, it would be fine behind one.
Your transmission must not be much more than 5 years old then?
I don't understand your question. My trans was built by Art Carr years ago back when he ran the company. You can ask George how old it is, I bought it from him. He beat it, I've beat it, it's been bullet proof so far after years of abuse. You basically said that 700R4 transmissions couldn't be built to last, that is wrong.
I know monster doesn't have the best reputation, but it was just an example. A quick google search will find several builders claiming 700's built for 1000 plus HP.
Whatever, we'll never agree. Just looking at the current state of hard parts I still don't see enough completely new components that have been improved enough to actually expect them to be reliable behind 1000hp. Sure, anyone can build one, but having it work for a while vs having it work for a long time are 2 different things. And using one transmission as proof they don't break at higher power isn't really proving anything. You're not pushing the limits of that 850hp or else you'd be breaking rear-ends....
I'm using the American Powertrain hydraulic master cylinder setup with an OEM booster (78 'vette), no problems here.
It doesn't matter what transmission you go to, the master cylinder will mount the same.
I'm running a single disc CenterForce setup (dual friction) and doing just fine(450hp 400ci small block). I don't really notice the pedal effort - it feels "normal" to me. But most modern car clutches feel light to me.
As to the feel of a hydraulic clutch - I'm not sure I really buy into loss of feel vs a mechanical setup. If both systems are working perfectly, the feel should be the same. If not, the only extra "feel" you'd get is binding joints in a mechanical setup. That said, I'm a member of the "younger" crowd and learned how to drive on hydraulic clutches.
Also, I think your concern about RPM drop with the 4L60 is a little unfounded.
1. You're running a pretty high displacement engine.
2. The 1-2 drop will be much worse (47% on a 4L60, 43% on a 2004R)
3. You'll be flying at these speeds. I'm assuming you're running a 3.36 ratio now from your OP, but you'd be doing 143mph assuming you shifted from 3rd-4th at 6000 RPM. It just doesn't seem to me that you'd be exercising powershifts at those speeds very often. But, I don't know what you'll actually be doing with the car, of course.
If you're down in the south bay and would like to see the pedal effort in my car, you're more than welcome to, BTW.
Another thing to consider how light of a clutch pedal feel do you want.
To handle the torque of the motor you will need a pretty heavy single disc clutch. With Mechanical clutch or Hydraulic it will be a heavy clutch pedal. Now if you want the feel of a C6 or C7 corvette then you will need to choose a twin disc setup. I started with a single disc.
GM6-HDSS ACT unit (735 Torque), and now I have a mcleod RST Twin disc, Higher Torque rating. Day and night difference. I will not use a single disc again for my aging body.
When I first got my 79 in 2009 I found the factory clutch too stiff, after a bit of driving my left leg would start shaking when I held the clutch in. After several hundreds of miles driving it over a couple of years either my leg got stronger or I got used to it but I don't find it so bad now. I haven't driven it for a couple of years now that I'm modifying the body so I'm a little nervous that its going to be too stiff again when I get it back on the road. I've got a new five speed for it and I'm in my mid-fifties now so I worry about how I'm going to find the clutch as I get older. I'd really like to go to the twin disc clutch setup you have but I'm running out of funds on my body and paint so I don't see how I can come up with the money for it down the road. I'd really hate to have to put an automatic in it when I get older.
A 4L80E is like using a Callies USA crankshaft.
A 700R4, 4L60E & 200R4 are like using a Eagle China bull$hit crankshaft.
One you don't have to worry about, with the others you wonder when they're gonna fail, not pleasant. I use a Callies crank and 4L80e so I don't have to wonder/worry about crap breaking. I also use Oliver, Diamond, AFR, Crower, & World and flip the middle finger to that Chinese crap/slop/junk they sell.
Last edited by jimvette999; 12-08-2017 at 04:09 PM.
12-02-2017, 12:27 PM
I totally agree ..for him to say 700r4 cannot take abuse no mater what improvements you make shows a lack of knowledge on the subject.. I ve seen 9sec cars with them run flawlessly.. .. My own 700r4 was built 9 yrs ago, and I abuse it regularly behind 525HP ... not a peep from it.. sure an electronic controlled unit is user friendly, but also more expensive.. an 8 speed auto would be even better.. but what would that cost?? if you have unlimited budget theres always something better.. for the money a 700r4 is a great choice 
Monster Transmission 
