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This should be a 1969 427/390, manual trans, with a VIN sequence of 114837. I read it as
T1220LA 791141837
And that's all great, as that's what it's supposed to say. And the font looks about right, but the gangs of 3 sure aren't aligned very well. The casting number (3963512) is right.
I couldn't find much for other examples online. This is not a high dollar car that anyone would be really invested in forging, so I'm not overly worried, but you never know!
That casting code is also right for LS-6 Chevelle and COPO Camaro I believe, so if someone was going to create a forging with a COPO-casting-code block I doubt they'd make a "Canadian Pontiac 2+2" out of it :-)
In fact that raises an interesting point- these were serialized at the Osawa plant in Ontario, so who knows how they stamped them on -that- line.
It's not a Corvette (it's a "Corvette Powered Pontiac") akin to what you'd find in the Impala SS. So LA is correct (and I did say Pontiac in the first post, to be fair).
I'm not worried about the numbers, like I said, they're right. But are they real? Since there were only about 12 of these made I have no idea how they serialized them on the assembly line in Canada.
I was just hoping for input from someone who's seen a lot of block stampings.
it is forged for sure unfortunately a close friend is the last word in this decision and i will not reveal his name .this is was he does professionally.
Hi D396,
I believe that typically during this period the engines' pads were protected with a piece of tape when the engine was painted.
Therefore many folks believe that when looking at a pad, and it's assembly and VIN derivative stamps, the pad should have any paint the pad has received since the engine left the plant, removed.
This lack of paint allows the 'surface' of the pad to be seen and sometimes clarifies the 'stamp' too.
That certainly appears to be an appropriate request for looking at this pad.
it is forged for sure unfortunately a close friend is the last word in this decision and i will not reveal his name .this is was he does professionally.
Good one. Fortunately, I'm not int he habit of taking anonymous third party opinions either for OR against...
It'd be cool though if I could sell cars with rare engines and say "It is legit for sure a good friend has the last word on this and I won't tell you his name!" on the auction page :-)
I used lacquer thinner but it didn't take the paint off. I wonder what else (besides paint stripper or a wire brush) I could use to clean this off?
I would contact Al Grenning through the NCRS if you can. He is the authority on pad stampings for the Corvette. He has collected photos of hundreds and perhaps thousands of them and knows more than anybody about them. Years ago he verified the pad stamp on my '66 and showed me how he did it. He had photos of stamps taken from cars ahead and behind mine in the assembly line. It was easy to see the similarity between them. Not sure if he knows a lot about Corvette engines in Pontiacs, but if he is not knowledgeable about them, he probably knows who is. ( He now charges for this service. When he verified mine he had yet to figure out guys would pay for it. )
Hi D396,
Do NOT used anything like a wire brush, abrasive sheet, or abrasive material, to remove the paint.
Doing that often degrades the existing surface of the pad which should still hopefully have a very specific surface appearance that was left on the pad when the engine block was surfaced at the engine assembly plant.
Typical the surface has 'broach' marks. These are very faint lines left in the pad when the engine block was surfaced. The lines are parallel with each other and parallel with the cylinder bores.
Use a liquid paint remover and cloth.
Regards,
Alan
An example of a bb engine's pad surface and also the assembly and VIN derivative stamps.
Examples of the 'gang holders' used to stamp the assembly information and the VIN derivative information.
While that pad may be original and correct, it has been "massaged" by someone. It appears to have had the letters enhanced with a Vibro-etch gizmo. Whatever was done, few folks [who are looking for a completely original car] would accept that stamp pad as original, because of the work done to it. If there was no 'premium' placed on the price of the car for its originality, I doubt that many potential buyers would care.
I know it looks in the photo like someone has traced over it with an engraver, but I'm not sure - doesn't look like that in person. I'm going to have to clean it off entirely and see what the raw metal tells me.
This car is a boat anchor if it's not the original motor. It's literally a one-of-one car that would be not worth restoring if it's not the original engine. If it's not the original I'll pull it and build a COPO Camaro clone (correct castings, after all).
Cleaned some paint off. I think the claims in previous posts about it being massaged are off target. Looks clean and unmolested on the Tonawanda stamp. The sequence number is what it is, and is probably the way there were in Oshawa.
considering the fact that the THRID party has the gang holder you rest assure i am not about to give you his name rank and serial number but i can tell you the bottom numbers are to close to the edge of the block.after it was cast the block was machined. when the top of the block was running thru the milling machine it left "lines" at a 60-degree angle as a milling machine would, there are no exceptions. look with a magnifying glass will be very easy to see.
Last edited by Captain bob; 01-09-2018 at 05:56 PM.
considering the fact that the THRID party has the gang holder you rest assure i am not about to give you his name rank and serial number but i can tell you the bottom numbers are to close to the edge of the block.after it was cast the block was machined. when the top of the block was running thru the milling machine it left "lines" at a 60-degree angle as a milling machine would, there are no exceptions. look with a magnifying glass will be very easy to see.
You're not making a lot of sense... or I'm too slow to follow. Are you saying your friend has the gang holder for restamping engines, or that he restamped THIS ACTUAL FREAKING ENGINE?
I know engines can be restamped. I've haven't mentored under Al Grenning, but I did talk to him on the phone today... so yeah, I know engines get restamped all the time.
The gang can never be "too far from the bottom edge". They can be too close to the top left (wouldn't happen with the head on).
You can see factory broach marks on the exposed head and rebuild broach marks on the top right. They should be lonitudinal front to rear (don't know what you mean by 60 degrees, they should be aligned to crank centerline, no?)
If you're really alleging someone took this highly valuable 3963512 COPO Camaro or LS-6 block and transformed it into a worthless Pontiac motor just to mess with me and my project, 20 years ago no less, I'd like some crisp information, otherwise you're just trolling.
these highly "talented" people use a belt sander with 120 grit to imitate original pad stamp area and then you pick out the correct letters, numbers from a book of existing cars that have the tab photograph the spacing is preset after you put the individual dies in the holder .the real difficulty is the date code on the big block which is located under the passenger side exhaust manifold. bogus code removed and the handmade new code is made of raised letters, numbers in epoxy mixed with cast iron flakes.obviously, you must have an HP 4 bolt main block to work with because of the tell-tale hole above the oil filter.is your particular engine a fake no comment. (yes, he possessed the OEM. dies from GM.)
Last edited by Captain bob; 01-09-2018 at 11:49 PM.
The lower set of numbers in that stamp are not factory stamped...at least, not with a gang stamp. I would suspect that the engine is not original to the car, but the seller wanted it to appear that is was legit.
these highly "talented" people use a belt sander with 120 grit to imitate original pad stamp area and then you pick out the correct letters, numbers from a book of existing cars that have the tab photograph the spacing is preset after you put the individual dies in the holder .the real difficulty is the date code on the big block which is located under the passenger side exhaust manifold. bogus code removed and the handmade new code is made of raised letters, numbers in epoxy mixed with cast iron flakes.obviously, you must have an HP 4 bolt main block to work with because of the tell-tale hole above the oil filter.is your particular engine a fake no comment. (yes, he possessed the OEM. dies from GM.)
Actually, some restampers don't need to use a belt sander. They have an original Ohio Broaching machine that GM used to redeck the block. Also, I am not sure what you mean by 69 degree angle. The lines should be straight up and down on the stamp pad. Meaning, if you are reading the numbers the lines are up and down. They should not cut sideways thru the numbers.
I think you can machine a 2 bolt into a 4 bolt and drill/tap the hole near the oil filter if I'm not mistaken.
Also, I think the location of the cast date changed sometime on the 512 blocks. The early ones had it under the exhaust then I think it went to the location in front of the bell housing on top at some point.
All of this can be uncovered by having the block checked out by CCAS.
Last edited by ed427vette; 01-10-2018 at 07:15 PM.
01-08-2018, 06:15 PM
1969 427 Engine Stamping - Does this look OK?
For a 69 427/390 it should be T1220LM. Also, you are missing a letter in the vin. It should start with 19S7*****.
