Yet another timing issue!!
05-05-2018, 05:05 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Yet another timing issue!!
Here is my setup
383 stroker
Hydraulic flat tappet cam
Comp cam Duration@.50" Lift:229 Intake/230 Exhaust
Lift: .48" Intake/ .486 Exhaust
Edelbrock Dual Plane 750cfm Carb
HEI Distributor
Turbo 400
It's either a 2000 or a 2200 stall converter
10 inches vacuum
Timing (Initial/Total Advance): Initial timing - 10-16° and Total timing 32-34° ( Factory Recommended)
Timing Initial 10° Total timing 34°
RPM 1000 ...740in gear
Problem is it's hard to start hot, and not running smoothly
Before I timed it, it started right up by turning the key..no gas
Dis Vacuum advance and plugged. Advanced timing was done at 2700 RPM
Before I timed it. it would start right up, no gas. Now, not so much
The original problem was after warming up it would stall putting in gear. I checked for vacuum leaks using two methods. Nothing
So now it's timed, but seems the engine is not happy with it.
Advance more?
It may just be me, but it seems to have more exhaust gases.
Please help..I'm frustrated!!!
Ohh.. I need to also tell you I had to retard timing to get where it is.
I WILL say that it no longer stalls putting in gear!
383 stroker
Hydraulic flat tappet cam
Comp cam Duration@.50" Lift:229 Intake/230 Exhaust
Lift: .48" Intake/ .486 Exhaust
Edelbrock Dual Plane 750cfm Carb
HEI Distributor
Turbo 400
It's either a 2000 or a 2200 stall converter
10 inches vacuum
Timing (Initial/Total Advance): Initial timing - 10-16° and Total timing 32-34° ( Factory Recommended)
Timing Initial 10° Total timing 34°
RPM 1000 ...740in gear
Problem is it's hard to start hot, and not running smoothly
Before I timed it, it started right up by turning the key..no gas
Dis Vacuum advance and plugged. Advanced timing was done at 2700 RPM
Before I timed it. it would start right up, no gas. Now, not so much
The original problem was after warming up it would stall putting in gear. I checked for vacuum leaks using two methods. Nothing
So now it's timed, but seems the engine is not happy with it.
Advance more?
It may just be me, but it seems to have more exhaust gases.
Please help..I'm frustrated!!!
Ohh.. I need to also tell you I had to retard timing to get where it is.
I WILL say that it no longer stalls putting in gear!
Last edited by John Swift; 05-05-2018 at 06:48 PM.
05-05-2018, 06:08 PM
#2
Race Director
How well did it run before you got in and adjusted the timing???
Do you what the timing was set at before you adjusted it???
Do you know for a FACT that the harmonic balancer is good and the outer ring that has the notch in it has not moved????
DUB
Do you what the timing was set at before you adjusted it???
Do you know for a FACT that the harmonic balancer is good and the outer ring that has the notch in it has not moved????
DUB
05-05-2018, 06:19 PM
#3
Advanced
Thread Starter
It ran about the same, and NO I do not know what the timing was. I couldn't see the mark at idle, that's why I timed it/ I DO know where the dist was before I stated, as I marked it just in case. No I also do not know for a fact that the balancer didn't move, however, I was told the engine had just over 400 miles on it, which I guess means nothing!
Last edited by John Swift; 05-05-2018 at 06:37 PM.
05-06-2018, 10:04 AM
#5
Race Director
Have you tried using a vacuum gauge while you are adjusting your timing so see what is happening with the vacuum when it is being adjusted???
I am sorry that you are frustrated...for what it is worth...I often times have to stand back form it and scratch me head also on some engines that just seem to be finicky.
And not that this matters...but I know I do not get all caught up in trying to hit special numbers when setting the timing. I find what the engine wants and works best.
DUB
I am sorry that you are frustrated...for what it is worth...I often times have to stand back form it and scratch me head also on some engines that just seem to be finicky.
And not that this matters...but I know I do not get all caught up in trying to hit special numbers when setting the timing. I find what the engine wants and works best.
DUB
05-07-2018, 10:25 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
05-07-2018, 11:15 PM
#7
Advanced
Thread Starter
Thank you for the reply Jim
The car was sold to me by the guy's nephew that had the restoration done on the car. He passed before it was complete. He was the go between myself and the aunt.
The original problem was after getting hot, it would stall when putting in gear (TH400). I checked for vacuum leaks using two methods... Nothing! When I called the nephew (who had told me was a truck mechanic), to ask what he thought it might be, told me to check for a vacuum leak which I had already done, and that I may need to "bump up" the timing.
THAT is what has troubled me so... the fact that if he is indeed a mechanic, why would the engine be so far advanced, and why would he tell me to bump it up, when in fact needed to be retarded! That’s where I start questioning myself.
After checking and double checking...
My final settings:
Idle 12° Total 35°
Changes it made
Vacuum from 10" to 12"
No more stalling when shifting into gear.
No low speed miss
Starts up as soon as I hit ignition..no gas pumping.
Also as I explained to DUB, it was blowing ever so little white smoke when first starting until it warmed a bit.now..NOW..NONE!
RPM is 1000 at idle, and 750 in gear.
Seems to be running cooler...but I need to drive it longer to see.
Hidden power I didn't know was there!
So far I'm happy with the results..I'm going to log everything and keep track of what the engine is telling me.
No low speed miss.
Thanks
The car was sold to me by the guy's nephew that had the restoration done on the car. He passed before it was complete. He was the go between myself and the aunt.
The original problem was after getting hot, it would stall when putting in gear (TH400). I checked for vacuum leaks using two methods... Nothing! When I called the nephew (who had told me was a truck mechanic), to ask what he thought it might be, told me to check for a vacuum leak which I had already done, and that I may need to "bump up" the timing.
THAT is what has troubled me so... the fact that if he is indeed a mechanic, why would the engine be so far advanced, and why would he tell me to bump it up, when in fact needed to be retarded! That’s where I start questioning myself.
After checking and double checking...
My final settings:
Idle 12° Total 35°
Changes it made
Vacuum from 10" to 12"
No more stalling when shifting into gear.
No low speed miss
Starts up as soon as I hit ignition..no gas pumping.
Also as I explained to DUB, it was blowing ever so little white smoke when first starting until it warmed a bit.now..NOW..NONE!
RPM is 1000 at idle, and 750 in gear.
Seems to be running cooler...but I need to drive it longer to see.
Hidden power I didn't know was there!
So far I'm happy with the results..I'm going to log everything and keep track of what the engine is telling me.
No low speed miss.
Thanks
Last edited by John Swift; 05-07-2018 at 11:17 PM.
05-08-2018, 06:38 AM
#8
Pro
With that cam, I would be surprised if your car does not like a little more advance at idle. I would try about 14 degrees initial (and if that works well, possible even 16) and limit the total mech. advance to 35-36.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
The following users liked this post:
John Swift (05-08-2018)
05-08-2018, 02:11 PM
#9
Advanced
Thread Starter
With that cam, I would be surprised if your car does not like a little more advance at idle. I would try about 14 degrees initial (and if that works well, possible even 16) and limit the total mech. advance to 35-36.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
Running manifold vacuum ported, but I will try manifold. Everywhere I look on the web I see much debate about where it's best to get it from, but it never hurts to try and see how it feels. I will still need to check vacuum advance timing once I get more hose and fittings.
The hard starting seems to have dissipated! It's is starting as it should!
Thank you
05-08-2018, 03:31 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
With that cam, I would be surprised if your car does not like a little more advance at idle. I would try about 14 degrees initial (and if that works well, possible even 16) and limit the total mech. advance to 35-36.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
I run 20* initial on my 383 with 36* total, the motor likes it and runs great. You could bump up the initial more and give it a try.
The following users liked this post:
John Swift (05-08-2018)
05-08-2018, 04:37 PM
#11
Advanced
Thread Starter
I have to be honest with all of you. I am running a HEI large cap distributor, and no experience adjusting the mechanical advance. As it sits, 15 degrees is about my limit without altering mechanical. Thoughts?
05-08-2018, 06:10 PM
#12
Race Director
Changing out the springs that are on the main shaft and centrifugal weights can be done.
The tension of the spring effects how the mechanical advance works.
I do not think I read that you are using or have a vacuum advance pod on this distributor.
Knowing that you have 'walked' it to a better running condition and know what that is due to keeping records.
For the heck of it...take your vacuum gauge and advance the timing to the highest steady reading and then retard it just a hair. Adjust your idle and so on and then test drive it and see what happens. When the engine is hot after a drive...because hopefully it is better. When you go and crank about 10 minutes later to allow for heat soak ... it should not drag or be laborious when cranking due to the timing being where it is at. If the car ran better but cranking it when it is hot is not to your liking...retard the timing again just a hair. When you get it where you like it...out your timing light on it.
This is a method I do when I can not get the car on a chassis dyno where I can verify air/fuel ratios etc.. And a lot of it depends on the octane of the fuel in the tank. The higher the octane..the more I can throw at it.
Keep in mind...sometimes it is a balancing act. When the engine is at running temps it runs like a striped ape. But when it is being cranked when it is cold...it can be a bit finicky. So...like I tell many customers...where do you want it to be. Easy to crank an maybe not have all the power it can... or peel your eyelids back. Because on so many of the engines I tune up ...they have insane mileage on them and trying to get an engine with nominal compression to spin the tires and do a burn out is not possible in most of the scenarios I have experienced.
DUB
The tension of the spring effects how the mechanical advance works.
I do not think I read that you are using or have a vacuum advance pod on this distributor.
Knowing that you have 'walked' it to a better running condition and know what that is due to keeping records.
For the heck of it...take your vacuum gauge and advance the timing to the highest steady reading and then retard it just a hair. Adjust your idle and so on and then test drive it and see what happens. When the engine is hot after a drive...because hopefully it is better. When you go and crank about 10 minutes later to allow for heat soak ... it should not drag or be laborious when cranking due to the timing being where it is at. If the car ran better but cranking it when it is hot is not to your liking...retard the timing again just a hair. When you get it where you like it...out your timing light on it.
This is a method I do when I can not get the car on a chassis dyno where I can verify air/fuel ratios etc.. And a lot of it depends on the octane of the fuel in the tank. The higher the octane..the more I can throw at it.
Keep in mind...sometimes it is a balancing act. When the engine is at running temps it runs like a striped ape. But when it is being cranked when it is cold...it can be a bit finicky. So...like I tell many customers...where do you want it to be. Easy to crank an maybe not have all the power it can... or peel your eyelids back. Because on so many of the engines I tune up ...they have insane mileage on them and trying to get an engine with nominal compression to spin the tires and do a burn out is not possible in most of the scenarios I have experienced.
DUB
05-08-2018, 06:31 PM
#13
Advanced
Thread Starter
Changing out the springs that are on the main shaft and centrifugal weights can be done.
The tension of the spring effects how the mechanical advance works.
I do not think I read that you are using or have a vacuum advance pod on this distributor.
Knowing that you have 'walked' it to a better running condition and know what that is due to keeping records.
For the heck of it...take your vacuum gauge and advance the timing to the highest steady reading and then retard it just a hair. Adjust your idle and so on and then test drive it and see what happens. When the engine is hot after a drive...because hopefully it is better. When you go and crank about 10 minutes later to allow for heat soak ... it should not drag or be laborious when cranking due to the timing being where it is at. If the car ran better but cranking it when it is hot is not to your liking...retard the timing again just a hair. When you get it where you like it...out your timing light on it.
This is a method I do when I can not get the car on a chassis dyno where I can verify air/fuel ratios etc.. And a lot of it depends on the octane of the fuel in the tank. The higher the octane..the more I can throw at it.
Keep in mind...sometimes it is a balancing act. When the engine is at running temps it runs like a striped ape. But when it is being cranked when it is cold...it can be a bit finicky. So...like I tell many customers...where do you want it to be. Easy to crank an maybe not have all the power it can... or peel your eyelids back. Because on so many of the engines I tune up ...they have insane mileage on them and trying to get an engine with nominal compression to spin the tires and do a burn out is not possible in most of the scenarios I have experienced.
DUB
The tension of the spring effects how the mechanical advance works.
I do not think I read that you are using or have a vacuum advance pod on this distributor.
Knowing that you have 'walked' it to a better running condition and know what that is due to keeping records.
For the heck of it...take your vacuum gauge and advance the timing to the highest steady reading and then retard it just a hair. Adjust your idle and so on and then test drive it and see what happens. When the engine is hot after a drive...because hopefully it is better. When you go and crank about 10 minutes later to allow for heat soak ... it should not drag or be laborious when cranking due to the timing being where it is at. If the car ran better but cranking it when it is hot is not to your liking...retard the timing again just a hair. When you get it where you like it...out your timing light on it.
This is a method I do when I can not get the car on a chassis dyno where I can verify air/fuel ratios etc.. And a lot of it depends on the octane of the fuel in the tank. The higher the octane..the more I can throw at it.
Keep in mind...sometimes it is a balancing act. When the engine is at running temps it runs like a striped ape. But when it is being cranked when it is cold...it can be a bit finicky. So...like I tell many customers...where do you want it to be. Easy to crank an maybe not have all the power it can... or peel your eyelids back. Because on so many of the engines I tune up ...they have insane mileage on them and trying to get an engine with nominal compression to spin the tires and do a burn out is not possible in most of the scenarios I have experienced.
DUB
Thanks again to everyone, I'll get back here when I have a chance to set, drive, set, drive!
It's suppose to rain tomorrow. 
I DID also connect vacuum advance to the manifold, also finding the main connector that threads into the manifold was loose!
Last edited by John Swift; 05-08-2018 at 06:43 PM.
05-08-2018, 10:20 PM
#14
Advanced
Thread Starter
With that cam, I would be surprised if your car does not like a little more advance at idle. I would try about 14 degrees initial (and if that works well, possible even 16) and limit the total mech. advance to 35-36.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
Also - are you running manifold vacuum advance or ported? Manifold usually works best, and can help the car run cooler as well. I would limit vacuum advance to about 10-12 degrees.
I am not sure the timing is really your hot start issue though - it's possible you have fuel boiling after shutting down. Insufficient timing can make these cars run hot, but I won't bet that it's the only thing going on.
You may also want to keep an eye out for the hot start issue to return. If so, look at adding a heat shield or spacer to reduce heat on the carb, and possibly running a fuel return line from the carb inlet to the tank (ask me how I know).
Try one thing at time, and keep asking questions on here - lots of forum help is available sorting out the possible issues.
Thanks
05-08-2018, 11:03 PM
#15
Pro
If you think heat is the issue (it's possible) I would look at heat shields first. I'm not sure what is available that work with an Edelbrock carb - worst case, you could probably get one of the Holley shields and modify it. Some folks also fab up a wooden spacer to prevent het transfer to the carb body. It doesn't have to be very thick.
05-09-2018, 09:32 AM
#16
Race Director
When and IF a heat spacer is installed. The height needs to be checked first between the underside of the hood and the air cleaner lid in four places. I use SOFT modeling clay shaped into small round sausage links that are stood up on end. I put them in the forth and rear and on both sides of the air cleaner id and close the hood.
Installing a custom made wood spacer is 'do-able'...but making it so thick that the air scape between the lid of the air cleaner and under side of the hood should be CAREFULLY taken into consideration.
DUB
Installing a custom made wood spacer is 'do-able'...but making it so thick that the air scape between the lid of the air cleaner and under side of the hood should be CAREFULLY taken into consideration.
DUB
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John Swift (05-09-2018)
05-09-2018, 12:55 PM
#17
Advanced
Thread Starter
When and IF a heat spacer is installed. The height needs to be checked first between the underside of the hood and the air cleaner lid in four places. I use SOFT modeling clay shaped into small round sausage links that are stood up on end. I put them in the forth and rear and on both sides of the air cleaner id and close the hood.
Installing a custom made wood spacer is 'do-able'...but making it so thick that the air scape between the lid of the air cleaner and under side of the hood should be CAREFULLY taken into consideration.
DUB
Installing a custom made wood spacer is 'do-able'...but making it so thick that the air scape between the lid of the air cleaner and under side of the hood should be CAREFULLY taken into consideration.
DUB
I'm not sure if I would have had the foresight to think of that!. That is a GREAT idea!
The engine already is higher than the fenders.
Last edited by John Swift; 05-09-2018 at 12:57 PM.
05-09-2018, 05:39 PM
#18
Race Director
Hopefully you have enough hood to air cleaner lid clearance.
I know that often times I get the air cleaner base for a 1969 and use it due to it has much more of a drop down to it and aids in providing the clearance I need when getting a set-up to work.
Usually I do not have the luxury of having a hood on the Corvette like you have. I am more than likely dealing with a stock hood.
DUB
I know that often times I get the air cleaner base for a 1969 and use it due to it has much more of a drop down to it and aids in providing the clearance I need when getting a set-up to work.
Usually I do not have the luxury of having a hood on the Corvette like you have. I am more than likely dealing with a stock hood.
DUB
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John Swift (05-09-2018)
05-19-2018, 04:46 PM
#20
Advanced
Thread Starter
First, again, thank-you all for your comments!
I have been doing some digging and finally was able to find the information on the engine! I pressed the seller until they sent me the info.
It is a Jegs Blueprint Dress Engine BP3834CTC1
SBC 383ci 420HP/450TQ w/Aluminum Heads
I’ll give the link below if you would like to see it.
First, I understand that back in the day when emissions came into play, manufactures cared more about emission control rather that hp, so advancing timing was beneficial to the engine.
But HERE I have a manufacture that wants the best HP, and TQ for their engine!
(I would assume)
Is it safe to assume the timing recommended for this setup is what I should use, even with that cam???
Timing (Initial/Total Advance): Initial timing - 10-16° and Total timing 32-34°
As of right now, I have it set to 15° initial and 34° total
It seems to be running well.
I don’t know the RPM that the mechanical fully engaged because I did this myself, but I revved the engine until it advanced no more
The distributor seems to be a LARGE CAP standalone MSD ..HEI with the coil in the cap, although it doesn’t say MSD on the cap.(The weights, springs etc are up on top for easy access, and apparently a curve kit was shipped with the engine).
It also has an adjustable vacuum advance, so I was thinking getting a inside the car vacuum gauge so I can adjust THAT as well.( I realize that will take adjusting, driving, adjusting, and driving over time.
I have also connected the vacuum advance to the manifold rather than ported off the carb.
I DO understand now, that I CAN advance further than recommended and the reasons!
At this time I am going to leave everything as is until at which time I can find a chassis dyno shop and get it done properly as DUB has highly suggested to me….
Thank - you DUB for taking time to help this old fart out!~
For the record, I am using 91 Octane NON ethanol.
Does anyone else have this setup, and what is YOUR timing??
https://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Eng...SABEgJ-5vD_BwE
I have been doing some digging and finally was able to find the information on the engine! I pressed the seller until they sent me the info.
It is a Jegs Blueprint Dress Engine BP3834CTC1
SBC 383ci 420HP/450TQ w/Aluminum Heads
I’ll give the link below if you would like to see it.
First, I understand that back in the day when emissions came into play, manufactures cared more about emission control rather that hp, so advancing timing was beneficial to the engine.
But HERE I have a manufacture that wants the best HP, and TQ for their engine!
(I would assume)
Is it safe to assume the timing recommended for this setup is what I should use, even with that cam???
Timing (Initial/Total Advance): Initial timing - 10-16° and Total timing 32-34°
As of right now, I have it set to 15° initial and 34° total
It seems to be running well.
I don’t know the RPM that the mechanical fully engaged because I did this myself, but I revved the engine until it advanced no more
The distributor seems to be a LARGE CAP standalone MSD ..HEI with the coil in the cap, although it doesn’t say MSD on the cap.(The weights, springs etc are up on top for easy access, and apparently a curve kit was shipped with the engine).
It also has an adjustable vacuum advance, so I was thinking getting a inside the car vacuum gauge so I can adjust THAT as well.( I realize that will take adjusting, driving, adjusting, and driving over time.
I have also connected the vacuum advance to the manifold rather than ported off the carb.
I DO understand now, that I CAN advance further than recommended and the reasons!
At this time I am going to leave everything as is until at which time I can find a chassis dyno shop and get it done properly as DUB has highly suggested to me….
Thank - you DUB for taking time to help this old fart out!~
For the record, I am using 91 Octane NON ethanol.
Does anyone else have this setup, and what is YOUR timing??
https://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Eng...SABEgJ-5vD_BwE
Last edited by John Swift; 05-19-2018 at 05:12 PM.