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Last night looking at the OP's other post he has solved the issue... what the solution was I've got no idea but I answered another question of his and put a note in there to tell us what solved the problem.
If the problem is that the solenoid is not closing the motor contacts, which are designed to transfer hundreds of amps to the starter motor, then the only way the starter will crank is because those hundreds of amps are transferring through the pull in winding which I doubt it was gauged to handle. Alternatively, it could avoid that by having a relatively high resistance. But that means it will restrict the current enough that the the starter won't crank due to the voltage drop across the pull in coil winding.
I apologize, but I don't see the point of that jump. Jump the battery straight to the starter and it will either spin if it's good on not if it's bad or, I'll add, if its ground is bad, in which case neither the pull in winding or the starter will kick.
All a relay is doing is replacing the screwdriver jump connecting "S" to the 12V at "B". Old timers know the screwdriver trick works when heat is cooking the solenoid. The add-on relay will energize even when the solenoid would not have enough power to pull in and complete the purple wire circuit (due to additional age related resistance). The relay will take the (reduced voltage) electrical signal from the purple wire and it WILL energize and then "make" the "screwdriver" circuit because the relay requires less power than the hot solenoid does to energize. The relay takes the full 12V from the "B" and sends it to the "S" just like a screwdriver does only you don't get dirty or need to crawl under the car.
Last night looking at the OP's other post he has solved the issue... what the solution was I've got no idea but I answered another question of his and put a note in there to tell us what solved the problem.
Willcox
I did reply to your post yesterday on the other topic as to what I thought was the problem. I heated up the motor, and applied both remote starter cables that were cold to a hot starter and solenoid. That big battery cable I applied from the remote starter switch was very hard to get on because of real hot headers, but I did it. The other remote cable was easy because of the 3" jumper wire I had on there in conjunction with the purple wire. Still just got Click, click , click - same thing. So I ordered a new starter and solenoid and they should be here tomorrow. I'll install it and then test again. I don't know what the problem exactly is, but I plan to dissect it to see if it was the armature or the solenoid or both.
Hopefully the new mini starter will work out. After you test...it seems that it is the problem.
Not knowing how long you have had this starter on the engine. it might be a good time to use IR thermometer and see how hot it gets. That way if you need to custom fabricate of a heat shield to protect it ...it might save you from having to do this again.
Hopefully the new mini starter will work out. After you test...it seems that it is the problem.
Not knowing how long you have had this starter on the engine. it might be a good time to use IR thermometer and see how hot it gets. That way if you need to custom fabricate of a heat shield to protect it ...it might save you from having to do this again.
DUB
Installed the new starter tonight. It works perfect and didn't need to shim it. Spray painted the flywheel to check mesh, and it's very good. Anyway, did the whole heat up procedure without the heat wrap , and didn't experience ANY problems with hot restarting. I haven't gotten into the old starter to see what was up with that yet. Just to be safe, when everything cooled back down I arranged the wires around the starter to have a "bird cage" effect, so when I wrapped the blanket around it, it would have an air space around the starter and solenoid. That way air can get around in there. I do have an IR but didn't use it tonight, but out of curiosity I want to check how hot that blanket gets on the outside tomorrow. I wonder since my gills are blocked off on my '76 that if I made holes to them if it would help ventilate the engine compartment better - good idea? Thanks
I myself would run the car for about 45 minutes or so and without the starter blanket on it ...see how hot the starter gets. Then put the blanket on it and when the car is cold again...perform the same test d drive the same amount of time and see if the blanket is providing any benefit. Or do it vice versa. Check it when you have the blanket on it now than take it off and see how hot it gets without the blanket.
What 'gills' are you referring to?
If I am remembering correctly..the vents it the fenders are always open and are not 'gills'. It is just a single open oval hole.
I myself would run the car for about 45 minutes or so and without the starter blanket on it ...see how hot the starter gets. Then put the blanket on it and when the car is cold again...perform the same test d drive the same amount of time and see if the blanket is providing any benefit. Or do it vice versa. Check it when you have the blanket on it now than take it off and see how hot it gets without the blanket.
What 'gills' are you referring to?
If I am remembering correctly..the vents it the fenders are always open and are not 'gills'. It is just a single open oval hole.
Post a photo of what you are referring to.
DUB
I installed the new starter. With the blanket on I used the IF. The closest primary header pipe is #4. It measured at 700 degrees. Mind you, I ran the hell out of this for about 25 mins sometimes revving 5000 rpm for about 30 secs or so. I then got under the car and the IF read 480 degrees on the closest part of the starter to the primary. The furthest part read 325 degrees. The solenoid read 300. I waited 5 minutes to simulate a gas station, and it fired right up no problem. I did this a few times , and it worked great. But Man is that hot! I have to work all weekend so Monday I'll try it again with the blanket off. I'll also show pics of the side vents
I installed the new starter. With the blanket on I used the IF. The closest primary header pipe is #4. It measured at 700 degrees. Mind you, I ran the hell out of this for about 25 mins sometimes revving 5000 rpm for about 30 secs or so. I then got under the car and the IF read 480 degrees on the closest part of the starter to the primary. The furthest part read 325 degrees. The solenoid read 300. I waited 5 minutes to simulate a gas station, and it fired right up no problem. I did this a few times , and it worked great. But Man is that hot! I have to work all weekend so Monday I'll try it again with the blanket off. I'll also show pics of the side vents
I also have this up on jack stands when I'm doing all of this so it's stationary, and not moving. It should be cooler out on the road. I have electrical issues I have to fix first before I take it out and drive it
I agree that going down the road will aid in this somewhat. But a 'real world' scenario may be you are in stop an go traffic and thus can cause it to heat up. SO if driving and then sitting in traffic is what you encounter...that is how I would test it.
Regardless. You got the starter to work again and that is a PLUS.
i see little use for blankets and think they are beneficial for wrapping things that are hot, not things that you want to be cool.....wrap the header around the starter or use a heat shield.
do you have the front air dam in place under the radiator? if not make one and install it . this makes a huge difference in engine bay heat
i see little use for blankets and think they are beneficial for wrapping things that are hot, not things that you want to be cool.....wrap the header around the starter or use a heat shield.
do you have the front air dam in place under the radiator? if not make one and install it . this makes a huge difference in engine bay heat
I don't know why I never thought of wrapping the headers, that's a good idea. Anyone have a picture of their heat shield? I DO have INDY type spoilers, front and rear
Here is a fuzzy picture of the new starter. You can't really tell from this but there is only about a 1" gap between the front of the starter and the primary pipe. I'm waiting on 2 rolls of header wrap to come in any day now, and when I do I'll take temp readings with the IR gun again
DEI also offers a wide variety of heat protection products form exhaust wraps to starter shields. Check out our Titanium exhaust wrap for the headers http://designengineering.com/titanium-exhaust-wrap/ . Here is a link to our starter shield for mini starters too. http://designengineering.com/mini-versa-shield/ . Just a couple of options to help with header heat on starters. Always feel free to contact me with any questions or for more information.
I'm just trying to figure out why these cars ran fine for 20 or more years without any 'heat soak' problems. Perhaps the [relatively new] mini-starter was the problem.
Now, starter solenoids DO fail. And when they fail, they go "Click, click click" but the starter never gets any juice. That would be the most likely cause, IMO. Could a faulty starter solenoid become heat sensitive? Maybe....
I'm no expert, but you may have more than one issue that you are dealing with that is causing the starting problem.
I'm collecting parts for my 496 and probably over researching each part and componant that is going into the build.
1. My research told me to stay away from the mini starters as they don't do well with heat soak and that nothing works better than a good OEM type starter with a heat shield.
2. I had a battery ground cable that looked to be in good condition, but was heavily corroded under the insulation and was not conducting well. It may help to conduct continuity and resistance checks on your ground cables.
. I 100% agree with this,,, I found same info while doing my research, , also, my go-to starter/alternator guy, (in business over 40yrs) backs it up too, , , We need to remember, the hot and ground cables are aluminum, and really should be replaced with copper, even it the ends look clean and good,,, cleaning up all, { and I mean ALL! } wire connections related to the starting of the engine, is the best way to be worry free for hot or cold starting, even a cammed-up high compression wildly timed eng, , to a bone stock 160hp '75 L-48,,,, IMHO, that's the best place to START,,
06-27-2018, 04:02 PM
