M Pete

I have searched but could not find what I was looking for. I talked to a local shop yesterday about swapping out cam, heads , and rear main seal and was quoted 14-15 hours of labor. I am wondering if this is an accurate estimate. This is the first shop I have talked to (the other two were very non-comittal and wanted to up-sell) so I don't have basis to measure.

Also, how many hours of labor would one expect for a crate longblock install moving the accessories from old engine to new?

Thanks much!

mobird

What are your mechanical abilities? Not sure if you would be interested in doing the work yourself, but a head/cam change is not all that difficult if you have some basic skills and are careful. It can even be done with the engine in the car (ask me how I know).

If you aren't willing to do the work yourself, then I would reccomend you be careful about the shop you choose. MAKE SURE they are reputable, not just the best priced. Seems like every week we have a new thread on this forum where someone got screwed over by a local mechanic shop that sounded decent but ended up doing shoddy work.

As far as labor, that is hard to say. I could do a head/cam swap in about that time. But I've done it on a C3 before. They may decide it is easier to pull the motor out (it very well may be) which takes more time.

Personally I think the crate motor install would be cheaper than the heads and cam swap. Simply because there is alot more that goes into the head/cam swap when it comes to prepping the block mating surface (that took me HOURS to get it to where I felt comfortable putting on the gasket and heads because I didn't want to have to take it off again due to it not sealing). The crate motor install is pretty straight forward: take off all accessories/fan/vacuum lines/etc..., unbolt transmission and motor mounts, lift motor out. Reverse process to install new motor.

Not sure what heads and cam you are planning to install, but if you are paying a shop to do the labor it is probably a better bet to just install a crate motor. Assuming you have a base 350, you probably have what like $1500 for aluminum heads and FT cam? Then 15 hours labor @ $100/hr (just a guess) you would be at around $3,000. But for $3,900 you can have a Blueprint Engines 383 crate motor that will make more power than a heads and cam swap on a 350 AND you will have a brand new bottom end instead of using your most likely worn bottom end. Plus you can sell your current motor or store it.

Just my .02!

M Pete

I hear you on not just going with the cheapest. That is why my question is about the hours instead of just looking for price, which also changes depending on your local area. In a perfect world I'd just buy a case of beer for someone to look over my shoulder while I do the work. I'm sure I can do the job, it is just I don't have any experience on ensuring the lifters are correctly adjusted or then ensuring timing and carb is tuned correctly. Honestly the DIY writeups are not as good as other car enthusiast genres. I put a supercharger on one of my other cars without ever doing it before, but the instructions were great and that is something you just bolt on, remap software, and go.

Deciding between crate or cam/heads is exactly what I'm looking at and trying to decide. All good points that I keep going over in my head.

ddawson

Two full 8 hours days, I'd say that's not bad.

NewbVetteGuy

To swap cams with the block in the car, you have to remove the radiator, take the hood off, and SUPER bend the AC out of the way, hopefully without creating a leak if you have AC. You also have to loosen the oil pan, take off the front timing cover and chain and cam gear at least, scrap off gasket crud. It IS A lot of labor. (I'm in the middle of this process now; got the car, intake heads, accessories all off and now

Rear main seals with block in the car are supposed to be a huge PITA, too.


The thing I don't like about cheap crate motors is just the perception and probably reality that corners are cut: cheap parts, lower grade machining and assembly. IF you're willing to do the work yourself, you can put together a better combo with better parts. But if you just want it done quick and don't have the free time to do it yourself the crate motor does seem like the best option.

I'm shocked that working on this thing and learning about it intricately has become a hobby for me; I actually didn't want to work on the car at first; I just wanted to have a cool car that worked well and now that I'm enjoying the process, I don't think twice about the crate motor option anymore. --I truly hated working on cars until I got this C3 and found Corvette Forum. Corvette Forum helps me get the confidence that I can probably do most of the projects that my car needs so I'm actually willing to try it.


Adam

OMF

That's about two full days, seems like a good estimate to me for the work involved.
I think you'd be looking at about the same labor to do the long block swap as well

Crimson Thunder

You don't have to remove the hood for a cam swap but you must remove the radiator.

M Pete

Yup, they said that labor would be about the same for a long block instal.

Scottd

Mobird hit it on the head. The average hourly rate is now hovering at 100 bucks an hour. (Which is fawkin insane) I can pull an engine in 5 hours, takes me 10 to reinstall and verify everything is correct. So to answer your question, 10-15 hours seems like a good estimate.

Please dont underestimate a head/cam job. You dont get much more intricate than heads/cam work (think about it, all thats left is dropping the crank and pistons and its down to a bare block). Setting the cam and initial valve lash as well as timing is not plug and play, it takes some experience and time. If money is no matter to you and you want to stick with a 350 , just agree to the 10-15 hours. If top performance is your goal and you can afford another 2500 bucks, buy a crate 383.

If you have free time and free money, learn to do it yourself. It may cost you just as much in the long run, but nothing beats the excruciating pain of matching your cam to your heads and then praying to your chosen deity that it fires up the first time without any explosion, fireballs or flying parts.....

lars

Flat rate for removing and replacing the cylinder heads (both sides) is 8.6 hours. This does not include parts, such as gaskets and incidental hardware.
Flat rate for replacing camshaft and lifters is 7.7 hours. Add .4 hours for power steering.
Flat rate for replacing rear main seal is 3.1 hours.
(Flat rate for swapping a long block is 14.7 hours.)

Disregarding the long block swap, that adds up to 19.8 hours plus parts and materials. Current national averages for shop rates vary from $47 to $215 per hour. If we call it an average of $100/hour, the labor for the work you want done should be in the mid-range ballpark of about $2,000.00.

Personally, my opinion is that any shop that quotes a published flat rate cost for working on a 50 year old car is insane. You'll never make flat rate, and lose your ***, due to corroded fasteners, bad previous workmanship, missing parts, and damaged parts. Any reputable shop will quote "time and materials" on an antique car (yes, Vern, that's what these are), and will justify the hours spent above and beyond the "flat rate."

If they're quoting you a firm, fixed cost of 15 hours (that's only 2 days with some time to spare) to do that work, you better jump on it. They're nuts. I hope they do good work for insane people.

If I were doing that work, I'd pull the engine out of the car and do the work on an engine stand so I could degree and check the cam and do the rear main with the engine flipped upside-down. And then I'd test-run it and tune it before I ever put it back in the car.

Lars

NewbVetteGuy

cv67

w/Scott
Bet you could pull & reinstall a complete engine in less time than leaning over the darn thing slowly stripping it down.
Heads arent bad at all, its the cam that can take longer. Balancer, radiator, etc. Even ifthe time was more the opposite it is SO much more pleasant working from an engine standthan leaning over, dropping wrenches in stupid places, etc. Bolt all your external stuff on save for the distributor and drop it right back in. Having a second hand really helps.
If you yank the motor you can seal up every spot in the firewall heat may be getting through, detail the frame/crossmember, etc.
Most times a wire wheel, roloc disc, or scotchrite/simple green and a rattle can can get things looking good if you take your time and do a clean job. Its lasts for many years even if youre driving it.

Up to your pocket book and patience, really.

Agree!! Maybe for a complex late model but come on a carbed 350?
Shoulda made a different career choice lol

Jebbysan

Yep.......15 hours is crazy cheap. And along with making sure the tech lashes the valves correctly.......he also needs to make sure it is timed correctly.
And if it was mine I would just jerk the engine out to inspect everything and detail the engine compartment. You will find all kinds of stuff you don't like when the engine is out.
This is the time to route wires differently, vacuum hoses.......clean the firewall, etc.....On my 72', I took the opportunity to clean and detail clear up the the front crossmember underneath......including the steering. Perfect time to do it......I literally stood in the engine compartment and went at it.

Jebby

M Pete

Thanks Lars, this is exactly what I was looking for.

Lagonia

Lars is right on the money - your $ollar will go SO MUCH FARTHER if you learn to do some of these things yourself. Replacing cam and heads is not particularly complex but time consuming and does require paying attention to the details.

M Pete

Agreed, I'd love to be able to do it myself.........so who is coming down to Tampa to watch over me while I do it?

cv67

Post in your regional section..click on forums, start a thread. Plenty of C3 members out your way, always had good luck networking if need be.