C3 Tech/Performance V8 Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine, Basic Tech and Maintenance for the C3 Corvette

A Borgeson question I've not seen asked

 
Old 01-05-2019, 02:37 PM
  #21  
Capt. Shark
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Originally Posted by jb78L-82 View Post
I like the Borgeson system with the the more direct connection to the pitman arm and the 12.7:1 steering ration versus the GM stock ratio of 16:1 but do not like the u joint connection nor the issue concerning the collapsing of the stock steering column.

I chose to go with GTR1999 blueprinting/rebuilding my 60,000 OEM steering box at the time in 2010 when Gray did it. Gary completely rebuilds and hand specs the box which was never done by GM as well as adds a custom olite bushing to the steering shaft that pretty much eliminates any and all play that brand new factory recirculating ball steering boxes had/have from the factory brand new. I still have the slower stereing ration but my box has zero play which it did not have when the car was brand new..........
Gary rebuilt my box last winter and it is tight with absolutely no slop at all. I cannot imagine the Borgeson conversion is that much better.
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Old 01-05-2019, 08:01 PM
  #22  
zwede
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Originally Posted by jb78L-82 View Post
Have you driven a car with a blueprinted/rebuilt OEM GTR1999 box like I have? I have zero play in the steering (see my previous post) since the box is hand built/hand adjusted, and has a non factory custom oilte shaft bushing that eliminates all on center play.

I have NOT driven a borgeson box either but I am interested mostly in the 12.7:1 ration in that box......
Yes, I had my box done by Mike/Tracdogg2 and there is still a noticeable difference when going to the Borgeson. And to be clear: That's no fault of Mike's, the factory box is what it is.
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Old 01-05-2019, 08:21 PM
  #23  
jb78L-82
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Originally Posted by zwede View Post
Yes, I had my box done by Mike/Tracdogg2 and there is still a noticeable difference when going to the Borgeson. And to be clear: That's no fault of Mike's, the factory box is what it is.
Thanks for the response.

Do you know if Mike Dyer added the custom olite (non factory OEM) bushing to the steering gear shaft on his rebuilds? I believe Gary is the only one that does that modification to the OEM GM steering box rebuilds which may explain why I have zero play on center with my GTR1999 box.
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Old 01-05-2019, 10:27 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Big2Bird View Post
Nobody ever considers just how heavy it is compared to stock..........
The Borgeson box exchange is 8 lbs. lighter than stock. Remember, you lose the steering cylinder and a few other parts. I had mine changed because of the quicker ratio and lighter overall weight.
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Old 01-05-2019, 10:48 PM
  #25  
zwede
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Originally Posted by jb78L-82 View Post
Thanks for the response.

Do you know if Mike Dyer added the custom olite (non factory OEM) bushing to the steering gear shaft on his rebuilds? I believe Gary is the only one that does that modification to the OEM GM steering box rebuilds which may explain why I have zero play on center with my GTR1999 box.
My box got bushings he machined himself. I forget the material, but pretty sure it wasn't olite.
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:02 AM
  #26  
ZAKsPop
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Sounds like this might be on my future to-do list.
But I'll do hydro-boost and better brakes first.
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Old 01-06-2019, 10:02 AM
  #27  
lionelhutz
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Play in the factory system still occurs at the control valve even if the factory box is rebuilt to be as close to perfect as it can be.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:35 AM
  #28  
leigh1322
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Agreed. There is the power steering control valve on the stock system that has play built into by design, that can never be removed. It moves 1/4" or so and then the power assist kicks in.Rebuilding the recirc box may remove a lot of play, but it will never get the last little bit. If you have factory PS doesn't It feel like you can wobble the steering something like 1/2 inch back and forth and get no car movement or power assist, right? I believe the removal of the PS control valve on the manual version removes this extra slop. There are still two springs, and a ball joint, at the end of the pitman arm, but there is no movement required to get the assist to function.

I went from a stock worn 70 Z28 PS recirculating box to a fully blue-printed one,(by Tom Lee of Nascar fame), in my old Pro-Solo car, and the steering response was instant. No slop, no center wobble, etc It felt exactly like a rack n pinion setup, and I could easily control the drift of the car with 1/2 inch steering movements. The 12.7 gear ratio was quick enough that only quarter turns of the steering wheel were required for most any turn, unless parking. I see no need at all to go to all the engineering, geometry and bump-steer concerns that would have to be addressed to convert this car to a rack-n-pinion setup, when the borgenson box conversion is so bolt-in simple. OTOH my manual steering box will definately hit the trashcan because there is no way I want one steering effort at speed and double or triple at slow speeds. And if my new borgenson box is not as crisp on-center as my old Z28 one, then I will have it blue-printed until it is. The first step is double-checking the two gear lash adjustments.
BTW I still ran a rag joint in my old car, and it was fine. No u-joint was required.

Last edited by leigh1322; 01-06-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 01-06-2019, 12:08 PM
  #29  
C3 Stroker
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^^^^ No U-Joint required in mine, either. The new rag joint was included with my Borgeson kit from Corvette Central.......https://www.corvettecentral.com/c3-6...f%3fcount%3d18
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:06 PM
  #30  
Big2Bird
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8 lbs loss sounds great if true. It does raise the CG a tad though. No way that box is lighter than the original.
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:12 PM
  #31  
jb78L-82
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I think that choices, in my opinion, can be summed up by:

1. If you want the best OEM power assisted stock system, the only way to go is to have your OEM box custom blueprinted/rebuilt. The OEM steering system is pretty darn good, if the power steering piston and control valve are in good shape as well. Yes, there is VERY slight play, but for the street, it is reasonably tolerable- I notice more the lazy steering ratio than any play. A custom rebuild of your OEM box is the cheapest alternative by far, even replacing other steering components as well. The major drawback to the OEM system with an upgraded OEM box is really the slower steering ratio of 16:1 versus Borgeson 12.7:1, again my opinion, just to make sure no one's panties gets wrapped around their ankles

2. If pseudo originality is desired, aka a bolt in recirculating ball true power steering system, with all potential steering slop eliminated and with more appropriate quicker steering akin to a corvette, then borgeson is the way to go...somewhat pricey BUT you get some nice benefits. Downside is the box fitment issues as well as some frame flex reported with some installations as well the wacky ujoint with some kits AND the collapsing steering column issue...No free ride BUT good upside

3. Rack and pinion-IMO, I would not, due to cost, modifications to make the rack fit, road clearance issues, reduced turning radius with the rack AND quality control issues with some kits PLUS why would you, when you can get 99% of the benefits with choice #2.

Last edited by jb78L-82; 01-06-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 01-06-2019, 03:28 PM
  #32  
jpattt24
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Originally Posted by Big2Bird View Post
8 lbs loss sounds great if true. It does raise the CG a tad though. No way that box is lighter than the original.
the borg box is 28 lbs. not sure about the stock one.
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Old 01-06-2019, 03:33 PM
  #33  
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Thank you. I have a spare somewhere.
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Old 01-06-2019, 07:46 PM
  #34  
Jim Shea
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As a point of fact, the Saginaw energy absorbing, collapsible steering column assembly was designed with the thought that the steering shaft could be shortened in a severe frontal collision. The dynamics of the collision could press the end of the tubular lower steering shaft back up into the column. Saginaw was also aware that the steering column (particularly when it was completely out of the car) could be accidentily dropped on the end of the steering shaft and the shaft shortened. The steering shaft was designed with the tubular lower shaft engaging the solid upper steering shaft with a generous overlap between the two parts. So the steering shaft assembly was designed with this very generous overlap that would provide a real safe steering function. So yes, the shaft can be shortened by pressing it back into the lower bearing.

I do have a problem when people cut, section, and weld a critical safety part like a steering shaft.

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Old 01-06-2019, 09:08 PM
  #35  
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The upper and lower shafts had a plastic like pin on each side of it and just like Jim said, they are there as a protection feature of the steering column in the case of server front end damage (no one likes getting harpooned by a steering wheel and/or shaft). We're doing a steering column from a 69 right now and it has been collapsed from front end damage. So basically we pulled it back out to where it was supposed to be and then used PC7 epoxy to hold it back in place. If the car is ever hit in the front again the pc7 will work just as the original.

As far as the other kit, I kind of like them on the c3 cars, they actually steer much easier and also avoid's the other leaking parts...

I will say this.. it's an expensive change over and one that I don't believe is necessary. If all the factory stuff is working properly then you shouldn't have any issue with it.

We just removed one from a mid year car a few months back and re-installed factory power steering back on it. The mid year cars have skinny tires and the system seems to be over - responsive to the roadway. In other words, there isn't enough ground traction with the tires and every bump you hit in the road would make the car jerk.
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Old 01-06-2019, 10:02 PM
  #36  
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Did you guys ever source a good rag joint? I remember there being some talk about it.
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Old 01-06-2019, 10:20 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Big2Bird View Post
8 lbs loss sounds great if true. It does raise the CG a tad though. No way that box is lighter than the original.
The box itself is not lighter, but you lose the control valve cylinder and some other parts no longer needed. I weighed the system removed vs. what went in and it is a net 8 lb. reduction. Also weighed the Steeroids rack and pinion system (another Vette was getting that installed at the same time mine was being done), and it was 4 lbs. lighter than the Borgeson, or 12 lbs. lighter than the stock system.
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Old 01-06-2019, 10:23 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by C3 Stroker View Post
The box itself is not lighter, but you lose the control valve cylinder and some other parts no longer needed. I weighed the system removed vs. what went in and it is a net 8 lb. reduction. Also weighed the Steeroids rack and pinion system (another Vette was getting that installed at the same time mine was being done), and it was 4 lbs. lighter than the Borgeson, or 12 lbs. lighter than the stock system.
Hmmmm. Thank you
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Old 01-06-2019, 10:32 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jb78L-82 View Post
....................

3. Rack and pinion-IMO, I would not, due to cost, modifications to make the rack fit, road clearance issues, reduced turning radius with the rack AND quality control issues with some kits PLUS why would you, when you can get 99% of the benefits with choice #2.
Yes, this is also why I chose Borgeson over rack & pinion. I had the chance to see both systems side by side at the shop and the R&P sat too low for my liking. Also, some turning radius was lost.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:21 PM
  #40  
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I'll sound like a broken record but the Borgeson conversion I did this summer is the best mod I have ever done to my car. Better than the 3.73 gears, AFR heads, cam etc.
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