A Borgeson question I've not seen asked
01-04-2019, 08:39 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
A Borgeson question I've not seen asked
Just WTF is a Borgeson conversion and why would I want one? I know it is a replacement for the steering but how is it better?
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01-06-2019, 07:46 PM
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: Saginaw Michigan
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As a point of fact, the Saginaw energy absorbing, collapsible steering column assembly was designed with the thought that the steering shaft could be shortened in a severe frontal collision. The dynamics of the collision could press the end of the tubular lower steering shaft back up into the column. Saginaw was also aware that the steering column (particularly when it was completely out of the car) could be accidentily dropped on the end of the steering shaft and the shaft shortened. The steering shaft was designed with the tubular lower shaft engaging the solid upper steering shaft with a generous overlap between the two parts. So the steering shaft assembly was designed with this very generous overlap that would provide a real safe steering function. So yes, the shaft can be shortened by pressing it back into the lower bearing.
I do have a problem when people cut, section, and weld a critical safety part like a steering shaft.
Jim Shea
I do have a problem when people cut, section, and weld a critical safety part like a steering shaft.
Jim Shea
01-04-2019, 08:55 PM
#3
Tech Contributor
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That's correct. The Borgeson Power Steering conversion is a "true" power steering system, similar in design to that used on GM passenger cars in the late 60's and 70's, whereas the factory C2/C3 Vette systems are "power assisted" steering similar to that used on the early Mustangs. The Borgeson system also has a quicker ratio steering box (12.7:1) giving the car a quicker steering "feel."
Lars
Last edited by lars; 01-04-2019 at 08:56 PM.
01-04-2019, 08:56 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Has a better ratio, less turns of the wheel stop to stop. Less potential for leaks due to fewer hoses and moving parts. A few don't like it and think the C3 is perfect as designed by GM, others not so much.
01-04-2019, 09:34 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
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The only thing I don’t really like about it is the need to collapse the steering shaft. Something doesn’t sit right with me about it. I love the feel of stock manual steering with a well rebuilt box. Mike Dyer rebuilt my box using new Borgeson internals.
Last edited by 69ttop502; 01-04-2019 at 09:35 PM.
01-04-2019, 09:48 PM
#6
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Jim Shea, who was on the design team for the design of the Vette steering column, also has a real problem with any alterations to the column as required by the Borgeson conversion. A lot of safety design concerns were engineered into both the column and the flex coupling at the box. (I just sent him an e-mail requesting his comment/opinion on this).
Lars
Last edited by lars; 01-04-2019 at 09:52 PM.
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01-05-2019, 12:38 AM
#9
Melting Slicks
Is there a gearset you can get for the stock steering box to get the same steering ratio as a borgeson? My headers are already close to kissing the stock box, so I don't think a borgeson will fit, but I got to drive an Audi TT RS at an auto-x event and I loved how quick the steering was.
Last edited by C3DeedlyDee; 01-05-2019 at 02:12 AM.
01-05-2019, 01:57 AM
#10
Race Director
Jim Shea, who was on the design team for the design of the Vette steering column, also has a real problem with any alterations to the column as required by the Borgeson conversion. A lot of safety design concerns were engineered into both the column and the flex coupling at the box. (I just sent him an e-mail requesting his comment/opinion on this).
Lars
Originally Posted by Jim Shea
I personally think that the Borgeson steering gear is a great product. I have recommended it at times myself. As mentioned above, if Borgeson is indeed a supporting vendor, I apologize. If not a supporting vendor, I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
There are also numerous threads where he highlights the significance of a proper shoulder bolt for the u-joint, as well as points out that we should be using the original P/N for power steering fluid for worm gear cars as opposed to the stuff that gets cycled through rack&pinion systems.
01-05-2019, 02:01 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
Is there a gearset you can get for the stock steering box to get the same steering ratio as a borgeson? My headers are already close to kissing the stock box, so I don't think a borgeson will fit, but I got to drive an Audi TT RS as an auto-x event and I loved how quick the steering was.
my only complaint was the two foot return hose they give you... that's bupkis… you need three minimum
wait... and they don't coat or oxidize the ragjoint metal, it's bare steel, so it rusts within days... found that out dealing with them on my first box... now I just spray everything with acetone, let it dry, then hit it with a good clearcoat. Keeps everything looking good and the rust is gone.
Last edited by naramlee; 01-05-2019 at 02:03 AM.
01-05-2019, 10:09 AM
#12
Le Mans Master
I like the Borgeson system with the the more direct connection to the pitman arm and the 12.7:1 steering ration versus the GM stock ratio of 16:1 but do not like the u joint connection nor the issue concerning the collapsing of the stock steering column.
I chose to go with GTR1999 blueprinting/rebuilding my 60,000 OEM steering box at the time in 2010 when Gray did it. Gary completely rebuilds and hand specs the box which was never done by GM as well as adds a custom olite bushing to the steering shaft that pretty much eliminates any and all play that brand new factory recirculating ball steering boxes had/have from the factory brand new. I still have the slower stereing ration but my box has zero play which it did not have when the car was brand new..........
I chose to go with GTR1999 blueprinting/rebuilding my 60,000 OEM steering box at the time in 2010 when Gray did it. Gary completely rebuilds and hand specs the box which was never done by GM as well as adds a custom olite bushing to the steering shaft that pretty much eliminates any and all play that brand new factory recirculating ball steering boxes had/have from the factory brand new. I still have the slower stereing ration but my box has zero play which it did not have when the car was brand new..........
Last edited by jb78L-82; 01-05-2019 at 10:10 AM.
01-05-2019, 10:26 AM
#14
Instructor
you can take shaft out of the column and cut it. and it will still collapse like factory. I had mine cut 2 1/4 when it was rebuilt and it fit perfect. I went from manual to power borgeson box. and its great.
01-05-2019, 11:39 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
I had my factory PS box rebuilt and it works fantastic. Can’t see why anyone would want anything other than a working factory system, but then there are folks who just like to change stuff.
01-05-2019, 01:48 PM
#16
Because #IamOld.
My 69 came from the factory with manual steering, which was fine when I was 35. Now that I am 20 years older I needed a little help in slow parking lots. The options were to add a factory system, restomod to a R&P, or the Borgeson. I chose the Borgeson.
It was the least expensive option (for new parts, no leaking time bombs for me), easy to install and has a better 12.7:1 ratio. I like it!
Last edited by Dynra Rockets; 01-05-2019 at 01:50 PM.
01-05-2019, 02:00 PM
#17
Nobody ever considers just how heavy it is compared to stock. If the case was aluminum I'd be in.
I need to drive a car with one, but I would look at R&P if I wanted a change.
I need to drive a car with one, but I would look at R&P if I wanted a change.
01-05-2019, 02:00 PM
#18
Race Director
The steering feel is much better with the Borgeson box, even when the factory box has been rebuilt. The stock PS setup, due to the design, will always have some slop on center. With the Borgeson that's pretty much gone and is as close to rack-and-pinion you're gonna get with a recirculating ball box.
01-05-2019, 02:04 PM
#19
Le Mans Master
The steering feel is much better with the Borgeson box, even when the factory box has been rebuilt. The stock PS setup, due to the design, will always have some slop on center. With the Borgeson that's pretty much gone and is as close to rack-and-pinion you're gonna get with a recirculating ball box.
I have NOT driven a borgeson box either but I am interested mostly in the 12.7:1 ration in that box......
01-05-2019, 02:28 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Mar 2006
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St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13,'19-'20
One of the best upgrades you can do to the car, IMHO. I've had mine in for 8 years now, zero issues and the steering is tight and responsive and doesn't leak!
