FiTech Fuel Injection timing control question
01-09-2019, 02:04 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
FiTech Fuel Injection timing control question
I am thinking of dumping the carb on my 350 and installing a FiTech injection system. I would like to utilise their timing control feature but am advised that the Pertronix module I have in the standard distributor cannot be used to send a signal to their unit and I need a magnetic pickup only. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what magnetic pickup would be suitable? Don't really want to have to shell out for a complete MSD unit or the like, they cost around a grand here.
01-10-2019, 07:48 AM
#2
I am thinking of dumping the carb on my 350 and installing a FiTech injection system. I would like to utilise their timing control feature but am advised that the Pertronix module I have in the standard distributor cannot be used to send a signal to their unit and I need a magnetic pickup only. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what magnetic pickup would be suitable? Don't really want to have to shell out for a complete MSD unit or the like, they cost around a grand here.
I am happy with the results because it works great. At least 50hp gain over my tired carb and hei.
As I understand it a different pick up is usually required for computerized timing control because of electro magnetic noise on the line from distributor to fi computer. Why a shielded cable would not allow for use of hei pick up I am not sure.
There is a youtube channel called turbo camarro. He made a video about modifying an hei for use with holley sniper in order to avoid buying the new distributor. I wanted to follow his instructions but ended up just buying the complete holley dist, coil and box. Im glad I did. I can cold start my 77 and immediately back out of an inclined driveway with no hesitation or surges. Idle cruise and wot all work great.
Last edited by Greengear; 01-10-2019 at 07:48 AM.
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Haggisbash (01-10-2019)
01-10-2019, 05:39 PM
#3
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C3 of Year Finalist (track prepared) 2019
I'm using timing control with my Fitech, I picked up an older secondhand MSD dizzy/coil/6al for cheap before I built it, so never tried to get it to work with the stock ignition. Have a look, you may be surprised at how cheaply MSD stuff can be picked up secondhand, and based on my and a few others recent experience I believe the quality has gone downhill on new MSD stuff in the last couple of years anyway. If buying new I would probably buy ICE ignition instead.
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Haggisbash (01-11-2019)
01-12-2019, 03:15 AM
#4
Melting Slicks
I may have a different view than others. Im using newer msd distributor, 6al, coil, with the Fitech 600, and utilizing the timing control. MSD still builds quality stuff, Ive used MSD parts since 1980. Anyhow, it works pretty darn well. My suggestion would be to install the whatever fuel injection system you choose, get it running, then switch to a timing control if so desired. I had issues trying to run timing control when I did my initial installation. Tech support suggested I use a basic setup using the traditional vacuum advance which we are familiar with. I did and was quite happy with the results. Now I knew a bit about the fItech. When I installed the 434 sb I switched to timing control. I set the initial around 15btdc and drove it that way for a week or so before taking it to a tuner and having it chasis dyno tuned. My exhaust is still too small for the engine but 455 rwhp and 440 ft lbs torque is a real kick in the butt. New headers are on the wall in the garage, just need to build a 3" exhaust for the 500 rwhp the engine is capaable of.
01-12-2019, 03:18 PM
#5
Safety Car
I may have a different view than others. Im using newer msd distributor, 6al, coil, with the Fitech 600, and utilizing the timing control. MSD still builds quality stuff, Ive used MSD parts since 1980. Anyhow, it works pretty darn well. My suggestion would be to install the whatever fuel injection system you choose, get it running, then switch to a timing control if so desired. I had issues trying to run timing control when I did my initial installation. Tech support suggested I use a basic setup using the traditional vacuum advance which we are familiar with. I did and was quite happy with the results. Now I knew a bit about the fItech. When I installed the 434 sb I switched to timing control. I set the initial around 15btdc and drove it that way for a week or so before taking it to a tuner and having it chasis dyno tuned. My exhaust is still too small for the engine but 455 rwhp and 440 ft lbs torque is a real kick in the butt. New headers are on the wall in the garage, just need to build a 3" exhaust for the 500 rwhp the engine is capaable of.
If you are go for Fitech, then buy the 600hp kit, with ignition control, not the 400 hp with out.
Thx,
John
P.S Sunstroked again thanks for the deal, I love my 8572 :- )
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worship79 (01-14-2019)
01-14-2019, 10:13 PM
#8
Instructor
You should be able to use a standard gm hei distributor. and run the fitech timing control with it. I have the fitech fuel injection on my engine with a gm hei. but im not using timing control. but pretty sure you can use it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Corvette-Ta...frcectupt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Corvette-Ta...frcectupt=true
01-15-2019, 01:10 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Because I have a mechanical tach (recently renewed) I wanted to stick with the original distributor (also rebuilt a few years back but not many miles on it) so at this stage FI is looking like a too hard basket or rather too expensive option to me. Seems to get where I want I will need to run the existing ignition setup which I'm not entirely happy with because it won't give me the equivalent of manifold vacuum advance under 1500 rpm.
Tach conversion would run me to $500 here, MSD ignition $1000, FiTech 600 hp system $2,000, Fuel command centre $850, vent lines etc another $200 odd. It would make more sense to do an LS conversion $4800 here for second hand motor, wiring harness and computer.
Tach conversion would run me to $500 here, MSD ignition $1000, FiTech 600 hp system $2,000, Fuel command centre $850, vent lines etc another $200 odd. It would make more sense to do an LS conversion $4800 here for second hand motor, wiring harness and computer.
01-15-2019, 04:15 PM
#10
Instructor
Because I have a mechanical tach (recently renewed) I wanted to stick with the original distributor (also rebuilt a few years back but not many miles on it) so at this stage FI is looking like a too hard basket or rather too expensive option to me. Seems to get where I want I will need to run the existing ignition setup which I'm not entirely happy with because it won't give me the equivalent of manifold vacuum advance under 1500 rpm.
Tach conversion would run me to $500 here, MSD ignition $1000, FiTech 600 hp system $2,000, Fuel command centre $850, vent lines etc another $200 odd. It would make more sense to do an LS conversion $4800 here for second hand motor, wiring harness and computer.
Tach conversion would run me to $500 here, MSD ignition $1000, FiTech 600 hp system $2,000, Fuel command centre $850, vent lines etc another $200 odd. It would make more sense to do an LS conversion $4800 here for second hand motor, wiring harness and computer.
Last edited by jpattt24; 01-15-2019 at 04:24 PM.
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Haggisbash (01-16-2019)
01-16-2019, 05:34 PM
#11
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I used an HEI distributor without module simply to trigger an MSD 6 box and MSD canister coil. Then connected hi-tension from canister coil to an MSD adapter in place of deleted OE HEI coil then HEI to distribute hi-tension thru sp wires.
Maybe you can use an HEI without module to trigger FiTech?
-edit- maybe you can delete just the pertronix module but retain its pickup to trigger your FiTech?
Maybe you can use an HEI without module to trigger FiTech?
-edit- maybe you can delete just the pertronix module but retain its pickup to trigger your FiTech?
Last edited by jackson; 01-16-2019 at 05:37 PM.
01-17-2019, 02:05 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I used an HEI distributor without module simply to trigger an MSD 6 box and MSD canister coil. Then connected hi-tension from canister coil to an MSD adapter in place of deleted OE HEI coil then HEI to distribute hi-tension thru sp wires.
Maybe you can use an HEI without module to trigger FiTech?
-edit- maybe you can delete just the pertronix module but retain its pickup to trigger your FiTech?
Maybe you can use an HEI without module to trigger FiTech?
-edit- maybe you can delete just the pertronix module but retain its pickup to trigger your FiTech?
11-20-2019, 10:55 AM
#13
standard HEI won't work with fitech or any ignition control module
Key thing to look for is a magnetic pickup with 2 wires out of the distributer. MSD pro billet or clone. MSD has a sweet mechanical tach drive version that you can lock out the distributor and then program the curve to your hearts content on the fitech. The fitech default curve is stock HEI
11-23-2019, 02:18 PM
#14
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The GM HEI I speak of above ... a plain-jane 4-pin coil-in-cap like in 75-80 C3 ... that pickup IS MAGNETIC ... just use the two leads from the OE pickup
-addendum-
also, consider the very common distributor found in 97-2002 5.7L rpo L31 Vortec truck motors ... it has a crab cap ... in it's intended use it serves a cam position sensor and distributor ...
... the "fire" for plugs is created remotely ... theres' a trigger (crank-fire) that signals an ECM that fires a remote module & remote coil that send hi-tension to dist cap.
The Vortec distributor's other function is as a cam position sensor ... perhaps that signal could be used for FI ... I do Not know if the Vortec cam sensor pickup is Magnetic.
There are NO ignition "advance" components in a Vortec distributor ... not vacuum, not mechanical, none.
https://www.ebay.com/p/928803095?iid...SABEgLXAvD_BwE
-addendum-
also, consider the very common distributor found in 97-2002 5.7L rpo L31 Vortec truck motors ... it has a crab cap ... in it's intended use it serves a cam position sensor and distributor ...
... the "fire" for plugs is created remotely ... theres' a trigger (crank-fire) that signals an ECM that fires a remote module & remote coil that send hi-tension to dist cap.
The Vortec distributor's other function is as a cam position sensor ... perhaps that signal could be used for FI ... I do Not know if the Vortec cam sensor pickup is Magnetic.
There are NO ignition "advance" components in a Vortec distributor ... not vacuum, not mechanical, none.
https://www.ebay.com/p/928803095?iid...SABEgLXAvD_BwE
Last edited by jackson; 11-23-2019 at 02:36 PM.
11-23-2019, 07:05 PM
#15
Maybe you've figured out a way to hack apart a cheapo HEI but FiTech is very explicit that HEI and timing control doesn't work. And I don't exactly remember a MSD box (or any other company) available for complete timing and boost control for the lowly HEI. https://fitechefi.com/faq/if-i-have-...ntrol-feature/
Like I said get a billet MSD two wire dizzy, they can be had for $250 or less for the non vacuum advance, you need to lock out the mechanical advance as depicted in the instructions. Then connect the TWO WIRE magnetic pickup to the FITECH and there you have it. Also there are a bunch of MSD billet chinese clones on fleabay that have been used with success. You should also shield the tach wire as it can still pick up interference. There are a couple of GM 2 wire that can be modified and used for this purpose but I've never seen a HEI.
Show us your setup. You could save some people on here a lot of money as HEI's are almost free used.
Like I said get a billet MSD two wire dizzy, they can be had for $250 or less for the non vacuum advance, you need to lock out the mechanical advance as depicted in the instructions. Then connect the TWO WIRE magnetic pickup to the FITECH and there you have it. Also there are a bunch of MSD billet chinese clones on fleabay that have been used with success. You should also shield the tach wire as it can still pick up interference. There are a couple of GM 2 wire that can be modified and used for this purpose but I've never seen a HEI.
Show us your setup. You could save some people on here a lot of money as HEI's are almost free used.
The GM HEI I speak of above ... a plain-jane 4-pin coil-in-cap like in 75-80 C3 ... that pickup IS MAGNETIC ... just use the two leads from the OE pickup
-addendum-
also, consider the very common distributor found in 97-2002 5.7L rpo L31 Vortec truck motors ... it has a crab cap ... in it's intended use it serves a cam position sensor and distributor ...
... the "fire" for plugs is created remotely ... theres' a trigger (crank-fire) that signals an ECM that fires a remote module & remote coil that send hi-tension to dist cap.
The Vortec distributor's other function is as a cam position sensor ... perhaps that signal could be used for FI ... I do Not know if the Vortec cam sensor pickup is Magnetic.
There are NO ignition "advance" components in a Vortec distributor ... not vacuum, not mechanical, none.
https://www.ebay.com/p/928803095?iid...SABEgLXAvD_BwE
-addendum-
also, consider the very common distributor found in 97-2002 5.7L rpo L31 Vortec truck motors ... it has a crab cap ... in it's intended use it serves a cam position sensor and distributor ...
... the "fire" for plugs is created remotely ... theres' a trigger (crank-fire) that signals an ECM that fires a remote module & remote coil that send hi-tension to dist cap.
The Vortec distributor's other function is as a cam position sensor ... perhaps that signal could be used for FI ... I do Not know if the Vortec cam sensor pickup is Magnetic.
There are NO ignition "advance" components in a Vortec distributor ... not vacuum, not mechanical, none.
https://www.ebay.com/p/928803095?iid...SABEgLXAvD_BwE
11-24-2019, 02:44 PM
#16
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I used an HEI distributor without module simply to trigger an MSD 6 box and MSD canister coil. Then connected hi-tension from canister coil to an MSD adapter in place of deleted OE HEI coil then HEI to distribute hi-tension thru sp wires.
Maybe you can use an HEI without module to trigger FiTech?
-edit- maybe you can delete just the pertronix module but retain its pickup to trigger your FiTech?
Maybe you can use an HEI without module to trigger FiTech?
-edit- maybe you can delete just the pertronix module but retain its pickup to trigger your FiTech?
The GM HEI I speak of above ... a plain-jane 4-pin coil-in-cap like in 75-80 C3 ... that pickup IS MAGNETIC ... just use the two leads from the OE pickup
-addendum-
also, consider the very common distributor found in 97-2002 5.7L rpo L31 Vortec truck motors ... it has a crab cap ... in it's intended use it serves a cam position sensor and distributor ...
... the "fire" for plugs is created remotely ... theres' a trigger (crank-fire) that signals an ECM that fires a remote module & remote coil that send hi-tension to dist cap.
The Vortec distributor's other function is as a cam position sensor ... perhaps that signal could be used for FI ... I do Not know if the Vortec cam sensor pickup is Magnetic.
There are NO ignition "advance" components in a Vortec distributor ... not vacuum, not mechanical, none.
https://www.ebay.com/p/928803095?iid...SABEgLXAvD_BwE
-addendum-
also, consider the very common distributor found in 97-2002 5.7L rpo L31 Vortec truck motors ... it has a crab cap ... in it's intended use it serves a cam position sensor and distributor ...
... the "fire" for plugs is created remotely ... theres' a trigger (crank-fire) that signals an ECM that fires a remote module & remote coil that send hi-tension to dist cap.
The Vortec distributor's other function is as a cam position sensor ... perhaps that signal could be used for FI ... I do Not know if the Vortec cam sensor pickup is Magnetic.
There are NO ignition "advance" components in a Vortec distributor ... not vacuum, not mechanical, none.
https://www.ebay.com/p/928803095?iid...SABEgLXAvD_BwE
Maybe you've figured out a way to hack apart a cheapo HEI but FiTech is very explicit that HEI and timing control doesn't work. And I don't exactly remember a MSD box (or any other company) available for complete timing and boost control for the lowly HEI. https://fitechefi.com/faq/if-i-have-...ntrol-feature/
Like I said get a billet MSD two wire dizzy, they can be had for $250 or less for the non vacuum advance, you need to lock out the mechanical advance as depicted in the instructions. Then connect the TWO WIRE magnetic pickup to the FITECH and there you have it. Also there are a bunch of MSD billet chinese clones on fleabay that have been used with success. You should also shield the tach wire as it can still pick up interference. There are a couple of GM 2 wire that can be modified and used for this purpose but I've never seen a HEI.
Show us your setup. You could save some people on here a lot of money as HEI's are almost free used.
Like I said get a billet MSD two wire dizzy, they can be had for $250 or less for the non vacuum advance, you need to lock out the mechanical advance as depicted in the instructions. Then connect the TWO WIRE magnetic pickup to the FITECH and there you have it. Also there are a bunch of MSD billet chinese clones on fleabay that have been used with success. You should also shield the tach wire as it can still pick up interference. There are a couple of GM 2 wire that can be modified and used for this purpose but I've never seen a HEI.
Show us your setup. You could save some people on here a lot of money as HEI's are almost free used.
I made those suggestions (old HEI or newer Vortec) with the supposition either Might be used to trigger FI systems' computer.
The older HEI's Magnetic pickup also has two wires ... a green and a white (which sometimes yellows with age) ... a new mag pickup for old HEI is dirt cheap at parts stores
Cam position sensor in Vortec dirt cheap as well. Again, dunno if magnetic and it has three wires ... maybe use two ... dunno ... it's a suggestion.
I'd bet a beer that if you put a meter across two vortec pins you'll get a signal. There's one or two guys on here who're bona fide ignition engineers ... maybe they chime in.
11-24-2019, 04:09 PM
#17
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msd 8401 coil cover adapter for gm hei ... to use remote coil with big CiC hei
https://www.holley.com/products/igni.../parts/8401MSD
standard ignition replacement HEI pickup LX-302 or LX-302T ... it's MAGNETIC, just like OE HEI ... green & white wires are output ... they usually go to ign module ... but I deleted-bypassed module & connected direct to msd 6box. ... from 6box output to external coil ... canister whatever ... I used msd canister epoxy filled ... hi-tension (aka coil wire) from coil to cap adapter msd 8401 atop a locked out (spot welded weights) HEI dist. Same fn thing as an expensive locked out msd mag distributor ... HEI cap even wider span (xfire) across cap than regular msd cap. I "hacked" this some 15 years ago.
https://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/STD/#/v.../LX-302?type=s
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
T. Roosevelt
-addendum-
I could've used HEI coil in cap and driven it from 6box output. Point here is that the GM HEI has a magnetic pickup output ... green & white wires.
https://www.holley.com/products/igni.../parts/8401MSD
standard ignition replacement HEI pickup LX-302 or LX-302T ... it's MAGNETIC, just like OE HEI ... green & white wires are output ... they usually go to ign module ... but I deleted-bypassed module & connected direct to msd 6box. ... from 6box output to external coil ... canister whatever ... I used msd canister epoxy filled ... hi-tension (aka coil wire) from coil to cap adapter msd 8401 atop a locked out (spot welded weights) HEI dist. Same fn thing as an expensive locked out msd mag distributor ... HEI cap even wider span (xfire) across cap than regular msd cap. I "hacked" this some 15 years ago.
https://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/STD/#/v.../LX-302?type=s
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
T. Roosevelt
-addendum-
I could've used HEI coil in cap and driven it from 6box output. Point here is that the GM HEI has a magnetic pickup output ... green & white wires.
Last edited by jackson; 12-23-2019 at 12:09 PM. Reason: update LX302 image
11-24-2019, 05:21 PM
#18
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JB
BTW ... I'm not doing FI ... but I read the fitech https://fitechefi.com/faq/if-i-have-...ntrol-feature/ ... I mean I really read it!
It starts off saying no you can't use HEI ... but read on thru it & see how they waffle on that & then say they don't recommend HEI because it requires modifications to HEI.
Well, what I described above is a modification to an HEI... a dang simple one.
It seems someone here has asked the question about needing a Magnetic pickup ... and I've shown how the HEI has a magnetic pickup; separate & upstream of everything else.
BTW ... I'm not doing FI ... but I read the fitech https://fitechefi.com/faq/if-i-have-...ntrol-feature/ ... I mean I really read it!
It starts off saying no you can't use HEI ... but read on thru it & see how they waffle on that & then say they don't recommend HEI because it requires modifications to HEI.
Well, what I described above is a modification to an HEI... a dang simple one.
It seems someone here has asked the question about needing a Magnetic pickup ... and I've shown how the HEI has a magnetic pickup; separate & upstream of everything else.
Last edited by jackson; 11-24-2019 at 05:22 PM.
12-21-2019, 11:00 PM
#19
Instructor
I have recently discovered that you can use a distributor out of a chevy v-8 from 1987 to 1997 with TBI. you just remove the module from dist and splice in a msd 2 wire harness it comes with a plug to fit the fitech. msd part # 8861 module bypass harness. and here's a link to buy the dist. for $39.99 you will also need a external 12 volt coil. and this dist comes already phased so you don't have to buy the adjustable rotor.
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Haggisbash (12-21-2019)
12-23-2019, 01:39 PM
#20
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I have recently discovered that you can use a distributor out of a chevy v-8 from 1987 to 1997 with TBI. you just remove the module from dist and splice in a msd 2 wire harness it comes with a plug to fit the fitech. msd part # 8861 module bypass harness. and here's a link to buy the dist. for $39.99 you will also need a external 12 volt coil. and this dist comes already phased so you don't have to buy the adjustable rotor. https://www.amazon.com/Team-Performa...FJC5YCVXNJS517
yup ... you can use its mag signal to trigger a 6box or a computer ... essentially same "hack" concept as bypassing module in 4 pin HEI ... when module bypassed, HEI no longer processes a signal but becomes a simple mag trigger and distributor.
However, w/ the big CiC 4-pin HEI, you Can also use its OE in-cap coil ... drive it w/ whatever two leads you'd use to drive a remote coil ... by doing so you eliminate the 8401 remote coil adapter ref'd above.
I made my own simple harness from pickup ... like msd 8861 harness you ref'd ... but mine tied to a 6box's trigger inputs.
Phasing 4-pin HEI is simply done WHILE locking advances; no special rotor/tip.