jackson

Some years ago, on behalf of a customer buying 55 class 8 OTR heavy trucks, I authored & managed the buyer's on-site QA program at the truck manufacturer (Mack's then-new but now defunct campus) at Winnsboro SC. All trucks were run on chassis dyno & ECM optimized. I personally did a "lap" in each unit 'round a plant-perimeter road as I validated each system. Most passed first sweep. Those that didn't soon did. Then Mack employees drove them to a holding yard where they awaited piggyback transport. All trucks had a few gallons DIESEL fuel pumped into them just prior to dyno testing; not much as I found out the hard way a few times. No LNG etc. Just diesel.

Buccaneer

That's very interesting, and I'm not saying that is a BS statement, but I'm willing to bet that there is something about that that relates to a warranty clause somewhere in the fine print from the manufacture. I don't think that any manufacture would say, no problem, "just jump in a beat the snot out of it". They would at that point have tons of warranty claims on there hands, so they put that 1,000 mile clause in there to protect themselves to some degree, I think... Maybe not. You are right about the reader beware though. I would hate to have someone beat up a motor to some degree after a rebuild after reading something like this and then prang the motor, that would suck for sure. But in my case, I trust my machinist because of the types of motors he machines and builds and he would cover it if I did...I have it in writing, which is a great legal document. He is also a NOS kind of guy who's says "my motors don't go boom", but I will not put a bottle on mine to test that claim.

jb78L-82

Buccanneer,

Thanks for reasonable comments about this issue.

I am not a fan of start it and let er rip on any thing mechanical since the metallurgy, science, chemistry, common sense and logic dictates that approach may work some/most of the time but not all the time. I also think that the OEM's are doing a breakin to make sure they can minimize warranty claims PLUS I do think that a proper breakin will maximize engine longevity. I must admit I do often read of rebuilt motors needing another rebuild or refresher after shockingly very few thousands of miles...makes you wonder if longevity is not compromised by the start it and burn it mentality down the road??????? The common rsponse to that issue is that the owner ran the engine hard so after 10,000 miles it requires another rebuild, as an example, which in most cases I do not buy, as a reasonable explanation......just me......

Jebbysan

jb78L-82

Thanks for sharing Jebby!

I am not so sure that Chrysler requires 500 miles before go for broke on that hand built engine for the bearings/Cv joints only.

This below from AMG owners (hand Built motors from Mercedes) and engine builders of the same..the procedure outlined is pretty much what I did with my L-82 355 breakin and similar to what I did for my 10C6Z06 LS7 when new. I think some of what is disseminated on the forum is a little too liberal a breakin procedure and the reason I continue with this topic. Read below, not good for the start it and let er rip crowd......

BTW-The constant issue of metal shavings in the oil even after multiple oil changes on new motors is the RISK to a roller cam lifter that I mentioned way back.....................

I had my new 2011 S63 in for some misc. service and they mentioned following the correct break-in procedure for longevity of healthy engine life. I asked what that procedure was and they referred to an item that should have been on the driver's visor or in the glovebox. There was no such item.

I said the salesman told me there was no break-in necessary, as he said these engines were dyno tested and run when they were built. They agreed the engines are dyno tested, but that there is a break-in procedure. Does anyone know what that procedure is for the new 5.5L twin turbo AMG engine? Thanks
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post #2 of 9 (permalink)Old 06-01-2011, 04:49 PM
thinkman
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Yes the break-in period is the same as with any other performance motor.

Here's what you need to do:

-For the first 500 miles, do not go over 4,000 RPMs
-Do A LOT of engine breaking(on the highway in 5th gear, go up to about 75mph and release the gas pedal. Let the engine slow the car until about 55mph and repeat. You can do this at any speed just let it slow down with minimal braking. When you come to a stop light, rather than just hit the brakes, downshift, gear by gear until second gear and then brake). I understand that this sounds ABSOLUTELY absurd, but this is the PROPER method of breaking in an Forced Induction engine.
-Do an oil change at 500 miles(the dealer may think you're insane, but trust me on this, or take it to an independent shop)
-After the oil change, drive another 500miles, this time you can be slightly more aggressive, just be sure to do lots of "in-vacuum" cruising(same process as above).
-So at 1,000 total miles do another oil change(think of it like Rinse & Repeat)
-For the next 1,000 miles you can be more aggressive(just don't be driving like a mad man and DO NOT FLOOR it or rev it to red-line)
-At 2,000 miles, do the last oil change(from here on you should do an oil change every 4-5k miles)
-From here on out you can drive it as aggressively as you'd like and enjoy your very responsive engine, that will be nothing but reliable from here forward.

I know you're probably reading this thinking I'm a couple tacos short of a combination plate, but this is the way ANY shop would break-in a car.

The idea is, with a brand new motor, the piston rings and the block are fresh and new. It is IMPERATIVE that the piston rings get properly seated within the sleeves to provide for the best possible seal and compression. When you are decelerating, the piston rings are slowly making their space within the block, creating the right amount of clearance for them to travel up and down without a hiccup. The idea with doing so many oil changes, is that you are flushing out the engine of all microscopic metal particles that are coming from parts breaking in, etc. Also, you DO NOT want to run the engine on oil that has broken down from wear(takes about 1000 miles on average before oil starts to become less effective).

I just broke in my turbo engine using this described method and I could not be happier. I know SEVERAL people who do the exact same and have never had an issue. The little impracticality and cost of oil for this short period will result in a strong, reliable and fast responding motor.

If you still aren't convinced, read this(just skip on the conventional oil and go with synthetic):

"The word "break in" is very generic and doesn't truly describe how the process entails. When your engine is freshly built (or rebuilt), the cylinder walls have been cut, and then honed. The honing process basically cuts your cylinder in a "V" pattern, so that oil can even spread around the walls. The word "breaking in" is pretty much allowing your piston rings to properly seat inside the cylinder and "smooth out" the rough and freshly-cut surfaces so that it can form a even and tight seal during it's strokes. Because of the rough walls in a new motor, you get spots in the cylinder where you the rings cannot completely seal... thus giving you what is called "blow by". Blow by (as the word entails), is when your compressed gases manages to leak through the rings and into the crank case because either the ring is not properly seated, damaged, or the the cylinder walls is scorched. In a new car, both cylinder wall as well as rings are still fresh, so blow-by is normal. On a side note, when performing tests such as a "Leak Down", what you are doing is measuring the amount of this "blow by", to see how much gases actual manages to "leak" out of the rings (and or head gasket). The more compression you have, the more power the engine is making... which is why fresh engines with blow-by will always feel weaker than broken-in ones.

Picture your cylinder wall and piston rings to be your brake rotor and pad. When new, both surfaces are rough and will not make 100% full 'contact' with each other. Engine break-in is the same concept if you think of it that way, though you have oil to lubricate and seal, whereas brakes are used to create friction. Kind of a bad scenario, but I think you get the picture. There have been many different ways of doing so, including many urban legends such as "don't drive past 70mph" or "don't rev past 4000". These methods not only PROLONG the break-in period, but may also cause your rings to NEVER seat anytime soon.

This is what I personally recommend, that allows you to drive your car daily and normally, without needing a dyno or long straight-a-way (though there are other ways):

When the engine is brand spankin' new, fill the oil with a low-viscosity base weight oil that is NOT synthetic. Synthetics have too low of a coefficient of friction (more slippery), and the purpose here is to allow the ring and wall to create enough friction to smooth each other out...so a bit friction is good. If your car is new and factory-filled with synthetics, DRAIN IT and put in your plain ol' Castrol GTX 5w30 "dino" oil. Run the dino oil for the first 50 miles, driving casually moderating the pedal gently (and not just punching it WOT). It's okay to have the revs up or drive past 70 (that's what tranny's are for!), but you want to create a LOT of vacuum... which can be done by more braking, or deceleration at a higher gear. The deceleration allows the rings to adhere and produce the friction needed to seat, and the vacuum will allow all the shavings to collect and circulate through the oil and filter. After the first 50 miles, DRAIN the oil... and notice how much metallic shavings come out (it'll look like glitter in your oil). If you see shavings, don't panic... you're doing the right thing.

Refill the oil with more dino oil, and drive for another 100 miles, and repeat the process. During the process, you will still smell some oil being burned (blow-by) through your exhaust... so constantly monitor your oil levels, because you WILL burn oil. Don't be scared to feed the engine some boost... and just drive normally while not going "***** out" at WOT/Full boost either. Remember to let engine brake (downshift) more than actually braking in a higher gear. 100 miles later, repeat the process (the metal shavings will lessen, but still be there) and refill w/ more dino oil. At this point, you will notice that your engine is becoming more responsive after the 2nd oil change (faster spool-up, less "spongy" pedal feel). You will also notice that your blow-by has lessened as well. At this point, feel free to give it a few WOT pulls. Go WOT through a single gear (such as 3rd), and then let off and let the engine decelerate on it's own in 3rd. Just don't do anything that will make your EGT's go crazy. Now drive on this for another 200-300 miles, and give it one last oil change (you should have a good 400-500 miles by now). After this oil change, I would still recommend using dino oil, but you can now extend your change intervals more and more (I'd do it at 1000mi, then 2000mi). Repeat this until you have at least 5000mi on the car, before you put in the Synthetic. You'll notice that after each oil change, your engine will become stronger with less blow-by. The purpose of the oil changes is to simply flush out all the metal shavings and junk from the newly-machined motor. Some might think that this is too complicated, but non-synthetic oils are also very cheap. Feel free to use any Fram filter (OEM if it makes you sleep better at night), for you are simply "gargling and spitting" to clean up your engine. (Same way you rinse and gargle with tap water from the hose after you throw up from being ****-faced in a parking lot...if you get this concept, then you're all good )

I've done this method on all the motors I've built, including all new cars I've owned. 80k+ later (or whenever I blow it up...haha), the pistons and rings come out almost PERFECT the day they were put in. Just remember: DONT be a wuss... driving at 2000rpm's and 40mph everywhere you go, your rings will NEVER seat and you'll just glaze your walls even more. Give it gas, and let off the gas to create vacuum through deceleration...that's key."​​​​​​

Big2Bird

So I just found this today in a brand new Delco Box. Just thought I would toss it in here too.

jb78L-82

One thing is certain that NOT breaking in a new/rebuilt engine is NOT condoned by the OEM manufacturers and many builders...sorry guys, but the
'let er rip" mentality is NOT typical of those who build engines. Not sure where all this crap came from...........

Jebbysan

Not sure what engine builders you are referring to but the two I worked for were the first people to tell you to “let er rip”. And both had full page ads in the National Dragster at one time.
A properly measured, blueprinted and hand assembled engine has no other break in procedure other than rings and cam (Flat Tappet). Period.
Now there are part anomalies in this world....but they will show up one way or another.
Babying a fresh engine will not make it last longer if it is built right....in fact you may glaze the cylinder and prolong ring break in.....I just read a for sale thread about a complete engine that was pulled apart because the Chome Moly rings did not seal....
If GM wants you to go 500 miles or whatever then that proves one thing....the engine in question is mass produced.

Jebby

v2racing

This is the same way I've broken in engines for decades. Never had a problem.

Mike

REELAV8R

couldn’t agree more. If the job was done right then the only thing that needs breaking/ wearing in is the rings.

riddle me this: if a roller cam needs braking in, are we to assume that it is somehow wearing in with the associated lifter roller?
and if this is the case, how is it that I could take that roller and move to any other lobe on the cam or even to another cam and use it? ‘This is one of the many advantages of the roller system isn’t it?
so again I ask jb, what is being worn in?

drwet

I have enjoyed this discussion immensely, but I can't help but be struck by the fact that these are all just opinions. If we were having this discussion about an issue in the medical field, all of our opinions would be pretty much worthless. And having advanced degrees in related fields of study means nothing. They are still just opinions.

Modern health care is (or should be) driven by 'evidence based care' where treatment is based on the best current knowledge as derived from medical studies. The gold standard for this is the randomized clinical trial. At the other end of the evidentiary spectrum is anecdotal evidence. That is basically "I did this and it worked". If we were to apply this model to the question at hand, it would require us to build 100 (or 200, or 500) identical engines and randomly assign them to one of two groups. One group would be carefully broken in according to an established standard before being turned over to us to beat on it, the other group would be tuned and immediately turned over for appropriate recreational abuse by us gearheads. After 100,000 miles (or however long before the engine fails) they would be torn down for post-mortem examination. Once all the engines had been examined the data could be compiled to see which group achieved better results. And there would still be debate for years and years about how the study was flawed and the researchers biased. No doubt Michael Moore would make a documentary film about how the industry was conspiring to dupe the unsuspecting gearheads. And so on.

Obviously no one is going to build hundreds of small blocks for this purpose anytime soon. So let the debate rage on...

Metalhead140

FWIW, and I see that no one with a current opinion is likely to change theirs... I agree that the only thing to "break in" on a modern roller cam engine is the rings, and that hard acceleration/deceleration is the way to achieve that. I found a lot of evidence to support that and a lot of builders recommending that when I rebuilt my engine. I drove it lightly until up to temperature, then did several medium throttle runs and decelerations, followed by several full throttle runs and decelerations, not using the full Rpm range, but increasing Rpm each time. Went home, dumped the oil, cut the filter etc. Ran a breakin oil for the next ~600 miles, then changed to race synthetic. My engine is still running hard now, after lots of track time and ~35,000 miles. This reflects what was done with the engine in my f250 too (a 351 Cleveland stroked to 393ci) which was run in by a race engine builder on an engine dyno, as the truck runs on LPG which can make it difficult to seat the rings.

centuryoldracer

I always check the timing before I put fuel to it so it won't start just spinning it with the starter, then put fuel to it after it is timed, and it will fire immediately.
There is a lot of friction, and drag on fresh cylinder walls which is pretty much gone in the first few minutes of run time which also contributes to the horsepower increase.

v2racing

I would say those of us that have done this for a living all our lives and used a method that has netted a 100% success rate over decades of practice is far beyond just an opinion!

Mike

Jebbysan

Yes sir.....stab the distributor on 0....then give a tweak counterclockwise for about 10 degrees.....and start it......the light should be hooked up already and if all is well....time it immediately....then lock it down.....that's it!
After 30 years I can eyeball 15-20 degrees of initial from the rotor

Jebby

jb78L-82

So it seems that the prevailing wisdom of some of the folks on this forum thread who do have considerable experience building motors is that there is no breakin required per se for the engine in totality (roller cammed), just the rings' breakin issue to seat them?

Unfortunately, there still remains a few issues that no one has adequately been able to address other than with the opinions that this is what I do and it works so it must be correct.

The factual unanswered issue areas:

1. For all the engine folks on this thread that say there is no breakin, there seems to be a considerable sum of others, including my builder who did my 355, who would dissent regardless of the roller cam in my SBC. He clearly stated that, Yes, I had a roller cam BUT the breakin procedure previously outlined in this thread should be followed using a high Zinc Breakin oil, following a strict procedures, for the engine as a whole, NOT just the roller cam.....

2. There is considerable literature stating that new engines regardless of roller cam should be broken in on PAPER, not just on he internet....some of the evidence has been provided previously.

3. All OEM's require a new engine breakin procedure, from GM to AMG Mercedes (provided previously by me and others with GM crate engines)......Yes, I have seen the comments surrounding warranty and yes, that certainly, is part of the requirement, but I think you have to be really naive about metallurgy to bet at the casino with that theory. It is not in my opinion sufficient an explanation in today's engine world that every new car OEM requires a breakin to support their warranty only....MAYBE? just by chance for the skeptics, it may be better for the new engine.........................

4 . Some roller cam manufacturers do STATE the risk of fine metal contamination is a real risk, to a roller cam's lifters, at new engine startup.

There are just too many lingering topics related to this breakin issue that cannot be easily dismissed, not because I don't buy into the reasoning, BUT because there are too many valid points that have not been factually addressed, other than with that's the way I do it.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in totality is the reason that the controversy does and will not go away with, "I have done it this way for X years, so every one else must be wrong"......not good enough.

Jebbysan

When you pick up a pro built assembly from a nationally recognized engine builder (Sonny's, Reher/Morrison, Shaffiroff..,etc...) there is no break-in procedure. These engines were checked and dyno'd before you get it and they are rest assured that nothing is going to happen. They stake their reputation on it. And whatever the internet says is what the internet says.....
So who do you listen to? I will listen to the array of engine builders who taught me the craft long before the internet was a thing. And that logic still holds true......a measured, clean, handbuilt assembly needs no break-in other than to seal the rings and check components......I have cut the filter open on MANY dyno units while still on the dyno and if you did it right....no particles! Spin a filter on it and go.
This is not opinion.....this is fact and it is how all of the Pro's do it......and it is how I do it. If you want to do it another way....fine.....but it is not a religion, there is only one corect way to assemble an engine....the right way. Anything else is cutting corners......and asking for a "break-in".

Jebby

jb78L-82

Appreciate your experience with top hand built racing engines and I am sure those motors do not need breakin since that group checks and does initial startup...understood.

Really does not address a superb hand crafted custom built Mercedes AMG V8 requiring a breakin for their superb hand assembled engines in Germany.....goes back to post #56...

An AMG V8 is a good as anything assembled on this side of the Atlantic, so let's start with that premise before we start going down rabbit holes....AMG requires a breakin.....

May be we can all agree that there is no consistent factual procedure agreed upon by ALL parties for either newly rebuilt street motors or new engines period, either by aftermarket builders or the OEMs......??? The real world facts do support this prior statement...no getting around it....

REELAV8R

Enlighten us on what metallurgy you speak of. Seriously, I want to know.

So how is this avoided by using a 20 minute run in period for the roller cam vs a run in period for the rings?
It is the job of the filter to remove contamination, once it gets there that is. And the filter is not bypassing. Getting the filter out of bypass by warming up the engine and not revving the engine to the moon seems like a good idea, one we have all agreed on. Or you could use a filter with no bypass, or remove the stock block bypass or both, whatever floats your boat.

Metalhead140

No one that I can see has recommended the whole 20-30 minutes at 2-3000rpm and no load to "break in the cam" on a roller cam engine except for your engine builder jb? None of the companies you mention (e.g. AMG) say anything about that? Most people agree that you treat a fresh engine a bit differently in terms of quick oil changes, filter checks, break in oil, and taking some time before using the full Rpm range. It's only the breaking in of the cam (when using a roller cam) that is disagreed with by most, so far as I can tell.