Notices
C3 Tech/Performance V8 Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine, Basic Tech and Maintenance for the C3 Corvette

One lifter bore freakishly tight: now what?!?

 
Old 05-13-2019, 12:41 PM
  #21  
maj75
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Location: Lighthouse Point FL
Posts: 881
Received 80 Likes on 69 Posts
Default

Please don’t try to band-aid a fix with the motor together.
maj75 is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:10 PM
  #22  
REELAV8R
CF Senior Member
 
REELAV8R's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2011
Location: Hermosa
Posts: 4,116
Received 288 Likes on 266 Posts
Default

Yep bores should have been checked long before now, but live and learn.

if there is a burr I personally would not tear down the engine to remove it at this point. However DO NOT use sand paper to remove it. Putting sand in the engine would not be a good idea. A small stone or very fine small radius file should be used. The tiny amount of metal introduced in tiny particles would not greatly concern me.

if you wanna be **** about it you could wipe a light film of oil or grease in the bore and that should catch or retain most of the fine metal that may be removed. Then wipe the oil or grease from the bore.

If its more than a small burr, well.....you know what has to be done.
REELAV8R is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:04 PM
  #23  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by DAD111 View Post
Looks like your guide plate is off center in the picture – Take it loose and flip over and see if it lines up better before the new one goes on.
Part of that's an optical illusion because I took the picture off-center, part of it is that the guide plates NEED to be off-center to make the rockers centered side-to-side over the valve. (With these heads, you have to get the intake pushrod as close as you can get it to the outer-wall of the pushrod hole- this puts the exhaust pushrod in the center of the hole side-to-side and makes both rockers as straight horizontally as they can be.


Adam
NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:08 PM
  #24  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by REELAV8R View Post
Yep bores should have been checked long before now, but live and learn.

if there is a burr I personally would not tear down the engine to remove it at this point. However DO NOT use sand paper to remove it. Putting sand in the engine would not be a good idea. A small stone or very fine small radius file should be used. The tiny amount of metal introduced in tiny particles would not greatly concern me.

if you wanna be **** about it you could wipe a light film of oil or grease in the bore and that should catch or retain most of the fine metal that may be removed. Then wipe the oil or grease from the bore.

If its more than a small burr, well.....you know what has to be done.
I know. And I had a HORRIBLE experience with my first machine shop who was supposed to check everything out -cut fo the chase, they took my money and as far as I can tell they hot tanked the block, honed the cylinders WAY too fine for my rings, polished the crank and told me "everything checked out great" -but refused to give me any actual measurements. -There is PAGES worth of "fail" regarding my interactions with them, but not necessary here.

I took it to a 2nd machine shop who was pretty great but I only had them grind the crank to 10 thou under and get me a bearing set made for 10 thou under.


-I'm with you on the way ahead. It's not getting torn back down to a bare block at this point unless there's absolutely no way around it.


Adam
NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:14 PM
  #25  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jackson View Post
Maybe they're too hard.

Did the plates & studs come with the heads?
Yes. The guideplates came with the heads. Jegs can't even find the guideplates that came with the heads. They recommened their new "Jegs-Brand" flat 5/16" guideplates but they're VERY different just from the picture. They can't figure out what guide plates they actually used on those heads / don't have them for sale... Problem of buying pre-assembled heads.... #NeverAgain! (I'll have replaced the springs, valve guide seals, retainers/keepers, shims, rocker studs, AND guide plates on the assembled heads... Got "Free" valves, I guess... (These heads assembled from Jegs are a re-brand of the Profiler heads and they're still LESS $$$ assembled from Jegs during their Christmas sale, than the bare heads direct from Profiler, so I'm STILL ahead in terms of $$$, but definitely NOT in terms of time and frustration...


This leaves me buying a set of 8 of CompCam's Guide Plates. It looks like my options are 4808-8 (Flat) or 4800-8 "Raised"/"stepped".
My understanding is that the stepped ones are ever so slightly better for high lift cams, anyone have any thoughts on which of these is "Better"? The stepped one's are on-sale from Comp with Amazon Prime shipping for $18.91 right now; flat ones are $24.98, so I'm leaning towards the stepped ones, if they're appropriate.

4800-8 "Stepped":
Amazon Amazon
4808-8 "Flat":
Amazon Amazon



Yes, I definitely realize that checking the lifter to bore clearances should've been done during my "pre-assembly" phase. I'm obviously a total newb @ this and I was following my SBC rebuild book's "Pre-Assembly" instructions, step-by-step and this step was missing completely. I should've thought of it though... Kicking myself, for sure.


Adam

Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; 05-13-2019 at 02:18 PM.
NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 03:50 PM
  #26  
jim-81
CF Senior Member
 
jim-81's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2011
Location: Chardon Ohio
Posts: 1,360
Received 84 Likes on 79 Posts
Default

Live and learn... At least you found it now. You'll get it figured out and fixed.
jim-81 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
NewbVetteGuy (05-13-2019)
Old 05-13-2019, 04:00 PM
  #27  
REELAV8R
CF Senior Member
 
REELAV8R's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2011
Location: Hermosa
Posts: 4,116
Received 288 Likes on 266 Posts
Default

All educations of any kind cost something in the way of money and time and usually quite a lot of both.

Rebuilding your first engine should be viewed no differently. Even your 5th engine, But the first one is for sure the steepest learning curve.

So don't kick yourself too hard, lessons learned the hard way are learned best usually.
I have rebuilt many of engine over the years, however my build of my 350 was the first Chevy V8 for me. And still I learned many a lesson along the way. Like you, never,never buy pre-assembled heads unless it's a very reputable company, like AFR. And still check their work.
My Darts were a mess, too bad too, previously I had a much higher opinion of Dart. But their support after the purchase was on par with a used car salesman. The quality control was garbage too.
AFR is worlds ahead of Dart.

Last edited by REELAV8R; 05-13-2019 at 04:01 PM.
REELAV8R is offline  
The following users liked this post:
NewbVetteGuy (05-13-2019)
Old 05-13-2019, 04:31 PM
  #28  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jim-81 View Post
Live and learn... At least you found it now. You'll get it figured out and fixed.
Thanks, I need the encouragement. Every time something like this happens my wife just says "roll it down the hill and BURN IT!". -She hates the dang thing and particularly how long it's taking; part of why I'm trying to rush to get the engine back together and the explosion of stuff everywhere dropped down to a minimum.


Adam
NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 05:38 PM
  #29  
jackson
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Timmonsville SC
Posts: 5,151
Received 166 Likes on 154 Posts
Default

OP Adam
I offer a bit of advice. Not technical, but familial. I'm not an expert on this either but wish you the best.

I assume your family & wife are more important to you than any car.

Just my opinion and Not meant as derision ... It does seem, that at times, you've been in over your head.

Like anyone New at motor rebuild; it takes You longer because you don't know yet how to work more effectively ...
... and you make mistakes which must be remedied. Rushing it will likely yield yet even poorer results and ...
... Unattainable deadlines are just that.

If this project is threatening home & harmony, and you value same, then maybe you should stop, think/pray and do something else.

Discuss any "something else" options with your wife.

Perhaps, turn this motor project over to a paid professional.

Perhaps, place the project on long-term hold.
jackson is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by jackson:
bmans vette (05-14-2019), maj75 (05-13-2019)
Old 05-13-2019, 05:58 PM
  #30  
jim2527
CF Senior Member
 
jim2527's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2003
Location: Tampa Florida
Posts: 15,653
Received 175 Likes on 153 Posts
Default

Something I do working on bicycles to find high/low spots when fitting stems and seat posts.

Clean both parts and dry them. Mark one part (lifter) with a Sharpie. Insert part, remove part. Look for Sharpie transfer. How to fix the issues will be different than how I fix seat tubes and steerer tubes. But at least you'll know where the high spot is.
jim2527 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
NewbVetteGuy (05-13-2019)
Old 05-13-2019, 09:09 PM
  #31  
drwet
CF Senior Member
 
drwet's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2009
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 2,052
Received 134 Likes on 130 Posts
Default

Every time I build an engine I find a whole new mistake to make. I could fill a book with the screw ups and just plain bad luck I've had over the years. You're not alone, its all part of the process. Don't let the naysayers discourage you, and don't expect your significant other understand your obsession. Relax, enjoy the process, and take pride in doing it right, and doing it yourself. You're not the first one to put an engine together twice.
drwet is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:59 PM
  #32  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jim2527 View Post
Something I do working on bicycles to find high/low spots when fitting stems and seat posts.

Clean both parts and dry them. Mark one part (lifter) with a Sharpie. Insert part, remove part. Look for Sharpie transfer. How to fix the issues will be different than how I fix seat tubes and steerer tubes. But at least you'll know where the high spot is.
AWESOME IDEA! I’m doing this!



adam
NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:13 AM
  #33  
jim-81
CF Senior Member
 
jim-81's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2011
Location: Chardon Ohio
Posts: 1,360
Received 84 Likes on 79 Posts
Default

Adam, after you're done with all this, you'll have to change your name to ExpertVetteGuy !
jim-81 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
NewbVetteGuy (05-14-2019)
Old 05-14-2019, 10:39 AM
  #34  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jim-81 View Post
Adam, after you're done with all this, you'll have to change your name to ExpertVetteGuy !
I thought you said “ExplicitiveVetteGuy” and I was about to agree.

:-)


Adam
NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:51 AM
  #35  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

On the broken valve guide plate: just seems to be crappy quality. Nothing under it. The holes are elongated in these and you might be able to see that the rocker studs aren’t clamping down on very much metal due to the design. They weren’t over-torqued as I used a torque wrench but glad I noticed it.



NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:11 PM
  #36  
jackson
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Timmonsville SC
Posts: 5,151
Received 166 Likes on 154 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jackson View Post
Maybe they're too hard.

Did the plates & studs come with the heads?
Originally Posted by NewbVetteGuy View Post
On the broken valve guide plate: just seems to be crappy quality. Nothing under it. The holes are elongated in these and you might be able to see that the rocker studs aren’t clamping down on very much metal due to the design. They weren’t over-torqued as I used a torque wrench but glad I noticed it.



As before ... perhaps they're too hard ... all of them.

perhaps the heat treat process went sideways ... maybe a 12-year-old dumped a scorching-hot bin of plates straight into ambient water.
jackson is offline  
The following users liked this post:
NewbVetteGuy (05-14-2019)
Old 05-14-2019, 01:42 PM
  #37  
jersey68l36
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Feb 2002
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes on 10 Posts
Default

Hi,

Were you able to check out the nicked up or whatever is wrong with it lifter bore? Amazon sells borescopes that use a smart phone as the monitor for $35. It may be something to use to get a good idea of what is the story with that one bore? I don't think that I would be totally tearing down a mtr for a lifter bore clean-up but I would be trying to fix the problem with the engine upside down on the stand, so that there is no metal getting on the lubed-up cam and whatever else.

Engine building is a study in patience, if the significant other is on your case about wasted time/$ on a hobby car, making you rush the build, while according to her, you should be painting a bedroom or doing landscaping work, then order your name brand guide plates, a borescope if you think it will help, and put the project aside for a little bit, and do some stuff around the house to make her happy.
jersey68l36 is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:11 PM
  #38  
NewbVetteGuy
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
NewbVetteGuy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2016
Location: Woodinville WA
Posts: 2,488
Received 201 Likes on 176 Posts
Default

I bought the CompCams 4808-8 "Stepped" guide plates and I'll check them out and get them installed and if they seem to work well, then I'll probably buy another set of 8 for the other head. (I'll go insane if the two heads have different guide plates).


I haven't done anything more regarding the lifter bores and probably won't be able to until this Sunday.
I have outside and inside mics and can definitely measure the outside of the lifter in multiple places, but I don't really trust my abilities with the inside micrometer and it just seems annoying to take like 12 measurements all over the bore that might be wrong and compare them to the measurements around the lifter when I can just use the "magic marker method" to find where they're tight / contacting each other. (measurements as the "indirect method" to determine where the clearances aren't enough; marker method as the "direct method".)

I've got a flexhone made for this purpose on the way and giving it three quick "down in 3 seconds, up in 3 seconds" passes should get rid of any burrs.
-I'm planning to try the marker method on the lifter tonight and then use the flexhone whenever it gets here. (Amazon estimates this Friday- next Tuesday as a window right now...)




Adam

Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; 05-14-2019 at 02:14 PM.
NewbVetteGuy is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:24 PM
  #39  
jackson
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Timmonsville SC
Posts: 5,151
Received 166 Likes on 154 Posts
Default

to limit crap getting into oil gallery ... before you begin file/hone, pack Both bores adjacent to bad bore with rag.
Then, after you have a good fit with bad one
Pull one rag out and spray brake/carb cleaner thru gallery toward bad bore.
Repeat for second adjacent bore.

You'll need to double & triple check these steps.

If you can feel it ...I suggest work on that spot with a fine file/handstone Before you hone.
jackson is offline  
The following users liked this post:
NewbVetteGuy (05-19-2019)
Old 05-14-2019, 07:20 PM
  #40  
CA-Legal-Vette
CF Senior Member
 
CA-Legal-Vette's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2004
Location: Scottsdale Arizona
Posts: 8,813
Received 176 Likes on 163 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by drwet View Post
Every time I build an engine I find a whole new mistake to make. I could fill a book with the screw ups and just plain bad luck I've had over the years. You're not alone, its all part of the process. Don't let the naysayers discourage you, and don't expect your significant other understand your obsession. Relax, enjoy the process, and take pride in doing it right, and doing it yourself. You're not the first one to put an engine together twice.
Very nicely said! Couldnt count how many mistakes I’ve made along the way. I just try to minimize the number of times I repeat the same one.

Originally Posted by NewbVetteGuy View Post
On the broken valve guide plate: just seems to be crappy quality. Nothing under it. The holes are elongated in these and you might be able to see that the rocker studs aren’t clamping down on very much metal due to the design. They weren’t over-torqued as I used a torque wrench but glad I noticed it.

I tend to agree with you. Looks like those broke along a seam. Hardened or not, they shouldn’t be brittle. As for the elongated holes, remember that you need a little room to adjust them.
CA-Legal-Vette is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: One lifter bore freakishly tight: now what?!?


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: