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One lifter bore freakishly tight: now what?!?

 
Old 05-14-2019, 08:40 PM
  #41  
cuisinartvette
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Whose valves are those, see a lot of pitting on top of one stem
Comp......stop buying that cheesy stuff...good luck getting it all together.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:57 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by NewbVetteGuy View Post
I bought the CompCams 4808-8 "Stepped" guide plates and I'll check them out and get them installed and if they seem to work well, then I'll probably buy another set of 8 for the other head. (I'll go insane if the two heads have different guide plates).


I haven't done anything more regarding the lifter bores and probably won't be able to until this Sunday.
I have outside and inside mics and can definitely measure the outside of the lifter in multiple places, but I don't really trust my abilities with the inside micrometer and it just seems annoying to take like 12 measurements all over the bore that might be wrong and compare them to the measurements around the lifter when I can just use the "magic marker method" to find where they're tight / contacting each other. (measurements as the "indirect method" to determine where the clearances aren't enough; marker method as the "direct method".)

I've got a flexhone made for this purpose on the way and giving it three quick "down in 3 seconds, up in 3 seconds" passes should get rid of any burrs.
-I'm planning to try the marker method on the lifter tonight and then use the flexhone whenever it gets here. (Amazon estimates this Friday- next Tuesday as a window right now...)




Adam
A hard stone hone would take down the high spots fast while a dingle berry hone will remove metal but not true the hole round. Hard stone hones are used for brake wheel cylinders so I would try to find one of those to rent. Just an idea to consider.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:22 AM
  #43  
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If you buy another set of guideplates, you will have enough of the new ones to build another engine. You only need 8....4 per side.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:44 AM
  #44  
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Are the guide plate holes center-to-center distance the exact same as the head bolt hole center-to center distance? Looks a bit off center in your pic. I have a feeling that paying a few hundred dollars more for AFR heads would have saved you a lot of frustration. Mine were not disassembled to check the 5-axis cnc machining and nor should I need to do that for a high quality cnc machined head. Have you considered selling those heads and getting AFR's? I wouldn't have any faith in them at this point.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:00 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by resdoggie View Post
Are the guide plate holes center-to-center distance the exact same as the head bolt hole center-to center distance? Looks a bit off center in your pic. I have a feeling that paying a few hundred dollars more for AFR heads would have saved you a lot of frustration. Mine were not disassembled to check the 5-axis cnc machining and nor should I need to do that for a high quality cnc machined head. Have you considered selling those heads and getting AFR's? I wouldn't have any faith in them at this point.
Not to throw a wrench in here on heads, but I just put a brand new right out of the box AFR 195 heads on my new motor. I had them checked by my machinist before putting them on. The valve seats were out on ALL valves, the worse one being .010" out, acceptable is .002" and would have let .003" go. The rest were .007" - .009" out. Had to have all the seats redone and a new valve job to make it right. This IMO is unacceptable for a quality head from any manufacture. I even called AFR and they didn't even care really which was surprising in its self. If you do some checking around you will find that this type of thing happens with all head manufactures in a production environment, no way around it when they shovel heads out the door as fast as possible, quality suffers as well. Always have your heads checked to ensure they are OK. Could I have just bolted these on and ran them? Yes, but problems would have come sooner than later with them that way running the motor hard. You might say that my machinist doesn't know what he is doing and you doubt that all valves were out, but I watched him check it and he has the best equipment you can buy to check things like this and he is a high dollar racer and probably has more in his bare block than my car is worth at 800 cubic inches worth of billet block. Just my opinion on the subject.

If it were me with this issue, I would tear the motor back down and do it right since if you (*&%@) it up, you will have to tear it down again anyway because the repair may cause more damage to the motor like maybe the cam, lifter(s) and possibly the bearings, but it's your motor and your money, do what you please...jus don't tell your wife you need to spend another boat load of money repairing the motor...again. It may get ugly.

Last edited by Buccaneer; 05-15-2019 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:57 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
Not to throw a wrench in here on heads, but I just put a brand new right out of the box AFR 195 heads on my new motor. I had them checked by my machinist before putting them on. The valve seats were out on ALL valves, the worse one being .010" out, acceptable is .002" and would have let .003" go. The rest were .007" - .009" out. Had to have all the seats redone and a new valve job to make it right. This IMO is unacceptable for a quality head from any manufacture. I even called AFR and they didn't even care really which was surprising in its self. If you do some checking around you will find that this type of thing happens with all head manufactures in a production environment, no way around it when they shovel heads out the door as fast as possible, quality suffers as well. Always have your heads checked to ensure they are OK. Could I have just bolyed these on and ran them? Yes, but problems would have come sooner than later with them that way running the motor hard. You might say that my machinist doesn't know what he is doing and you doubt that all valves were out, but I watched him check it and he has the best equipment you can buy to check things like this and he is a high dollar racer and probably has more in his bare block than my car is worth at 800 cubic inches worth of billet block. Just my opinion on the subject.

If it were me with this issue, I would tear the motor back down and do it right since if you (*&%@) it up, you will have to tear it down again anyway because the repair may cause more damage to the motor like maybe the cam, lifter(s) and possibly the bearings, but it's your motor and your money, do what you please...jus don't tell your wife you need to spend another boat load of money repairing the motor...again. It may get ugly.
Why not return the heads? Mistakes are made by all for sure. But you put a bunch more $$ into the heads to make them right vs just returning them.
my AFRs like many were done well, not perfect, but as good as I would expect for what I paid. And a whole lot better than the Darts I got.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:59 PM
  #47  
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Had a similar experience on my Dart.......guides were off and replaced a few in a couple hundred. Again in less than 1000.
Sure im hearing guide noise once more, they have a funky shape towards the chamber side?? Oh well nothings perfect.
Adam did you check the bottom of the lifter to see if it has some edge that could use a once over making it stick?
SOmetimes the bottom of the lifter bore one can develop. At least youll know everything about this one when its done.
Buying a crate is easy but would they do all that you are?
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:12 PM
  #48  
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Why not return the heads? Mistakes are made by all for sure. But you put a bunch more $$ into the heads to make them right vs just returning them.
my AFRs like many were done well, not perfect, but as good as I would expect for what I paid. And a whole lot better than the Darts I got.
Sure, I could have sent them back at my cost as heavy freight, not the dealer that I bought them from...and I would have had to wait, they would have had to check them to ensure I wasn't full of it and then wait to be sent back etc... I wanted them to be done and back on the motor, car loaded on trailer and off to the dyno which is 3.5 hrs away and I was on a somewhat tight schedule. I hate stupid delays when I'm on a mission and have to meet deadlines. Like I said, this type of thing happens a lot with all head manufacturers, not just AFR. I have a set of Dart Pro1s that were/are perfect, but I didn't want to put them back on this motor, there was a reason why I went with the AFR heads. The motor runs great with the AFR heads now and I'm happy.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:48 PM
  #49  
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Newb, I feel your pain. I've did several stock and performance builds back in the 80-90's and things went pretty smooth, fast forward to my 427 Tri-power rebuild/upgrade to 460 and in the second year of working on it I was ready to roll it out of the garage on fire and hope it got hit as well. I had so many things go south it was crazy (like cursed crazy).

I'm going to say this and leave it alone after, don't do a half assed repair of the lifter bore. The oiling depends on correct fit especially in the upper gallery and if if wears more you'll have bigger issues down the road. Find a good performance builder/shop and have them fix it (sleeve/hone to size). I understand the desire to get it done yourself now but here's the rub, if it fails later how much time/money does it take to pull engine and rebuild again with possible major damage.

I wish you well, sometimes a break from the problem allows clearer thinking.

I'm in the third year after upgrade and I'm still fixing and haven't put more than a hundred miles on it.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:35 AM
  #50  
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^^if you have a problem with afrs call Jeremy. They havea lifetime guarantee he will take care of you.
Finally got the 220s Ive been wanting for yrs but wiht no job...they had to go.
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:34 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
Sure, I could have sent them back at my cost as heavy freight, not the dealer that I bought them from...and I would have had to wait, they would have had to check them to ensure I wasn't full of it and then wait to be sent back etc... I wanted them to be done and back on the motor, car loaded on trailer and off to the dyno which is 3.5 hrs away and I was on a somewhat tight schedule. I hate stupid delays when I'm on a mission and have to meet deadlines. Like I said, this type of thing happens a lot with all head manufacturers, not just AFR. I have a set of Dart Pro1s that were/are perfect, but I didn't want to put them back on this motor, there was a reason why I went with the AFR heads. The motor runs great with the AFR heads now and I'm happy.
Yep, I get that. Hate to take delays when you got a time schedule. Glad it worked out in the end. Your experience with Dart sounds like it was better than mine in any case.
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Old 05-18-2019, 02:39 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by cuisinartvette View Post
^^if you have a problem with afrs call Jeremy. They havea lifetime guarantee he will take care of you.
Finally got the 220s Ive been wanting for yrs but wiht no job...they had to go.
Ya know, I would have thought the same thing. However, when I called AFR, they were not concerned at all and made an inference that my machinist wasn't using good enough equipment to check the seats vs. theirs. Well, my machinist has all good equipment which is Sunnen and I watched him check each seat run-out and was actually shocked they were that bad. It is a production piece and I get that. I was pressed for time and did what I had to do to make the deadlines as much as I hated to do that. In the long end, they work great and no other complaints so far on performance.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:04 PM
  #53  
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don't hone the lifter bore on the complete assembled eng

take it back apart,fix the lifter bores,then wash the eng out,and re-assemble,


and arnt there 3/8'' guide plates

and 7/16'' guide plates

for different sized pushrods
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:28 PM
  #54  
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Iím all done!

I used the black marker method on the lifter and it showed where the tight spots were (top of the bottom most section of the lifter).

I soaked old T-shirt rags in wd40 and put them up on top of the cam, under the lifter bore I was going to hone and then put another in each adjacent bore and covered the lifter valley with T-shirt rag to catch anything.

The flexhone wasnít long enough to be used with the heads on, so I took an old aluminum pushrod length checker and stabbed it over the flexhone rod and jb welded it in place: worked like a champ!

Cleaned out the bore by hand and adjacent bores, sprayed down the bores and oil galley with a torrent of WD40 until a T-shirt rag was totally clean, oiled lifter bores.

Had to remove all the old thread stud sealer crud from the threads in the rocker studs and then reinstalled them with the new Comp Stepped guide plates; I realized that the old pushrods has elongated holes and the new ones did NOT and fit perfectly.

Put on all the new valve guides reinstalled studs with red locktite, reinstalled pushrods, rockers, set lash, locked down the lock nuts, put on valve covers.


FINALLY!



Adam

Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; 05-19-2019 at 10:29 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM
  #55  
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Well done! Even if you didn't catch every last particle, don't worry about it. The particles are most likely less than 30 microns so they will just keep flowing around with the oil or get embedded in the babbitt of the bearings which is one reason why babbitt is soft.
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Old Yesterday, 01:33 PM
  #56  
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My terrible video showing the before and after of the "Sharpie Lifter Bore Clearance Test":
#1: Before:
#2: After:

Ghetto lifter bore flex hone JBWelded to an old pushrod length checker (Chinese Summit one) -This let me hone the lifter bore with the head installed.
(I covered the head gasket in CopperCoat and I didn't want to buy new head gaskets.)



Adam

P.S. I included direct links to my FB videos, but the links to show up here... I've done this before many times and it's just not working correctly today. Links appear when I edit the page... Strange.

Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; Yesterday at 01:42 PM.
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