superdave269

My son's car was acting up. It died a couple of times. No spark. See link.https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...spark-hei.html It died again Monday night just as he got on the freeway.
Well I put in a brand new module and capacitor and the little harness a few minutes ago. I was tired of second guessing that maybe the spare parts I had were possibly bad. It fired right up. I let it idle for 30 minutes. Then I drove it around the block.
After another 20 minutes of yard work I figured I would tweak the carb as it ran a little slugish.
Well now it won't do anything. No crank.. I truley believe it has some type of heat related issue but what?

I does have a good ground as I bounded the engine to the frame with a heavy guage wire last year and I did just replace the battery.

It could be a quo incidence but I don't think the starter just went bad nor do I think the neutral safety switch just went bad.. What the heck is going on with this thing!

HeadsU.P.

Are both GRD cables on the vehicle with clean shiny contact points? One GRD is off the Neg battery to frame. The second one is near the starter to frame.
And you can have the best, thickest new cables in the world but if the attachment point is rusty . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Was Heat Sink Compound smeared under the new module?

And last, what is the age of the starter solenoid?

superdave269

Grnds are done correctly, I am an electrican. Clean shiney steel with penatrox on the connections. Yes the new module cam with the little packet of heat sink material. Starter is a couple of years old. I'm sure it was a rebuilt. I haven't always had the best luck with them. In fact I remember installing one that didn't work only to take it back out and return it to PeppBoys and insist that they test it so I could get it replaced.

It is acting like the starter (at least right now). I will see if it will do anything in a hour or two, if it does maybe it helps confirm heat is an issue.

HeadsU.P.

Its not too bad a job to swap out the solenoid only which usually fails long before the starter.

Just for the "H" of it:
Remove distributor cap and wipe the underside with a dry paper towel.
Remove the coil dust cover. On one corner of the coil is a GRD wire to one of the mounting bolts. Remove the coating on the coil with a wire brush so the wire has a good contact.
Remove the coil. Inspect the Button Spring and rubber washer located in the cap.
Reinstall everything.

It does seem like a heat issue. Either in the IGN or maybe the solenoid.

OldCarBum

A coil going bad will usually fail under heat and work fine once it has cooled off.
Replace the coil, they are cheap and easy to swap.

Buccaneer

If you are indeed heat soaking the starter, just go with a mini high torque starter and not have to worry about it again. Are you sure the battery is up to par? If you can jump it the next time and it starts, the battery would be suspect that it didn't have enough juice to whirl the starter. (sorry, just saw that you had a good battery)

superdave269

Well it's been a few hours. It will now crank but not start. It's dark outside so I didn't pull a sparkplug but I am willing to bet i don't have spark again. I can swap out the coil tomorrow. If that doesn't do it I'm stumped. I do fear that something may be frying my module but lets wait and see if the coil does the trick before I worry to much about the possibility of the other ignition parts getting fried..

I can't explain why it would crank a couple of hours ago but heat seems to be a common component here.

I appreciate taking the time to offer suggestions. It really is helpful and appreciated.

OldCarBum

As stated above, check the ground cables.
I had a similar problem with my 73 when I first purchased it.
I had a battery ground cable that looked perfect except for a small bit of corrosion at the battery connector.
I started to pull the insulation back off the cable and found the copper cable was completely corroded through except a couple strands.
Replaced the cable and no more issue.

jackson

quit monkeying around with old fashioned, heavy starters, with heavy field coils.

Get a NEW Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction starter like what chevy's been using OE in cars & trucks for more than 20 years
They rarely give any trouble, do Not suffer heat soak and are very powerful with about 5:1 planetary gear reduction.
Brand New delivered for some $50 ... this for 168T flywheel/flexplate ... bought from these guys DB ... great
https://www.dbelectrical.com/product....html#app-list

derekderek

actually 50 gets you a direct drive starter. i use them on 454's in boats. the gear reduction is 90 bucks or so cheapest. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SBC-BBC....c100005.m1851 just found 66 bucks.

superdave269

Sorry for the delay in responding but a storm hit us. Now that the rain is gone I can look at the car.
I have a new coil pick up for the HEI coming and also believe a new mini gear drive starter is in order too. Looks like my son may be taking a job very far away. I need to send him off with a car that starts every time and not just when it feels like it .
Thanks eveyone.

REELAV8R

A faulty neutral safety switch will also prevent it turning over. It can happen randomly and seems to be a hot starter problem when it isn’t.

jackson

The $50 PMGR from DB is Not direct drive ... it has an inline planetary gear reduction set ... not obvious from exterior. It's inside & inline with & surrounding armature shaft.
Pull an OE starter from any say '99 suburban and you'll find same thing. BBC or sbc ...VERY small footprint & profile & mass.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...kyard-builder/

youtube ... can't find GM one, this is a ford pmgr but same planetary gear arrangement ... look about 4 min 10 sec in ... those magnets & planetary set make ALL the difference.

youtube ... here's one for a pontiac pmgr ... planetary set begin about 14 min 30 sec in.

maybe because the Vortec pgmr are sooo durable & cheap to buy ... not so many youtube repairs???

JimT

I have been fighting the same issue for some time now - car starts, then doesn't, tinker with the wiring and trouble disappears. Finally did some serious looking and found the the three wire wiring harness was defective. The yellow wire/connector clip was broken so it would never fuller attach/insert into the distributor. Remove the harness then look down into the plug and confirm that all wires are secured properly and are actually aligned for a solid connection.
Good Luck..

superdave269

OK, I believe it would be wise to upgrade the starter. Actually 2 starters. (this one and one in my car) Will the $50 starter that was in the given link work with a 1979 chevy 350 and a 1973 454? I really couldn't tell. I know if it fits the 350 it will work in my gen IV or gen 4 1973 vintage 454.
I don't want to order the wrong starters. Thanks

jackson

That DB PMGR starter is for 168T wheel. If yours is 168T, it'll bolt up and fit. C3 is either 168T or 153T ... most are 168T.
You can determine your size flexplate/flywheel better than I can. Count teeth or look up flex/fly for specific vehicle.
Above does Not have the extra terminal on solenoid cap that supplies POINTS with extra cranking boost ...
... Not an issue with OE '79 as it has HEI & no points.

But if the '73 still has OE points distributor, then the solenoid cap should be swapped for one with the extra terminal ...
... ask DB if they'll do this. Local alt/start shop can.

DB also offers PMGR starter for 153T wheel. Just ask them. Have alternators too.

superdave269

Thanks again. While trying to figure out the tooth count I remembered that the mounting holes on the starter and engine block tell a lot. Straight across is for 153 tooth count, staggered indicates 168.
Looks like I'm all set (at least I hope so)

OldCarBum

Not always.
My 73 454 has the bolt pattern for both straight across and staggered so I could use either depending on the starter I purchased.
The new Powermaster mini starter I purchased has provisions for both bolt patterns as well.

jackson

I'm Not an EE

Also ... for running the newer PMGR starters without "R" terminal on motors With POINTS ... I found this instruction for a summit ministarter.

Replacing stock starters that have an “R” terminal
The wire connected to the “R” terminal of the solenoid provides full battery voltage to the coil while cranking. If you no longer have a points distributor, it is no longer needed. If you still have the points ignition, and wish to keep this option, .... use a 3A/400PIV diode in the wire that was connected to this terminal and connect it to the motor side of the solenoid .

So ... there's a large terminal stud on solenoid with a short cable running from it to inside of starter motor case ... it's Energized Only when Starter is Cranking.

Disconnect Battery positive cable at battery.

Take the wire that WAS on old solenoid "R" terminal and put a Large ring terminal on it ... And ...
... solder/crimp an inline 3A/400PIV Diode, between the new Large Ring terminal and the opposite end of that wire at Coil + ...
... this Diode to prevent energy from flowing backward from Coil + to Starter armature via above referenced Large stud ... But ...
... But, (when starter is cranking and that above referenced Large stud is Energized) ...
... does permit energy to flow from that Large stud to Coil + (providing cranking boost to coil) ...
... once Diode is properly installed, reconnect wire to Coil + and to above-referenced Large stud having short cable into starter case.

Reconnect Battery positive cable at battery.

http://static.summitracing.com/globa...um-829100a.pdf

superdave269

Hey Jackson that was an interesting read. Not only that but I understood it. We studied zenner diodes in my 4th year of apprenticship class. Of course that was 30 years ago. Dad tought me that S side of the soleniod stood for Start side (needs power just to start) R stood for Run side. This was helpful information in trouble shooting no starts back in the day..