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My 406/409 SBC build with Bubba!

 
Old 05-26-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rescue Rogers View Post
Glad you survived the surgeries!! Thanks for all the pics. I cant wait to here it run.
Thanks!
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:38 AM
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Wow I had no idea it was THREE surgeries...now I feel like a big baby for all the complaining that I do. You are a serious trooper and an inspiration to us all.

I would love to own stock in permatex for the amount of RTV that clown used...holy cow, that is insane!


Hard to tell from the pics but at least the bores look ok...following and learning lots. Thanks for posting.
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:19 AM
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Glad you got through the surgeries ok.

Thats quite the exotic oil pickup and pan. I had to chuckle when you wrote that the pan rail sealant was on top of the gasket. Based on the thickness, I assumed they used it instead of a gasket
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:19 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by CA-Legal-Vette View Post
Glad you got through the surgeries ok.

Thats quite the exotic oil pickup and pan. I had to chuckle when you wrote that the pan rail sealant was on top of the gasket. Based on the thickness, I assumed they used it instead of a gasket
Thanks....me too!

For every person with a sad story there is another with an even sadder one.

I am just happy to be above ground and still able to do most of the things I enjoy.

Thanks again...

Yeah Bubba was present when the pan went back on.....
Machine shop work looks good though.
Proof will be later after I get this to the shop in June.....
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:30 PM
  #25  
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The pan looks like he never scrapped off the old RTV, just kept adding more, and if it fell off into the pan, thats what the filters for, LOL!!!!!
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:31 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by PainfullySlow View Post
Wow I had no idea it was THREE surgeries...now I feel like a big baby for all the complaining that I do. You are a serious trooper and an inspiration to us all.

I would love to own stock in permatex for the amount of RTV that clown used...holy cow, that is insane!


Hard to tell from the pics but at least the bores look ok...following and learning lots. Thanks for posting.

Hey Michael.
Daily pain is our life any more....so I don't dwell on it.

Inner workings of the block are pretty good.
Like I said in another post, the machine shop work is pretty good.

I ran a hone through the worst of the rusted 2 bores to see how deep. Not bad. Couple quick passes and all the rust gone but some staining left behind.
We will see what my guy at the machine shop says.
There is a very slight ridge but not much as the pistons slid through pretty easily.
Who knows...torque block hone and some new rings I might use the existing pistons. Probe pistons with small dish 12-20cc....which would put me around 10.88 with zero deck and other parts I am planning on using. Not sure about the zero deck either until I get a good measurement.
Probably change out the rods (Eagle ES with 8740 cap screws) because they have some grinding on the bottom.
And not sure about the crank....it rings when tapped with a hammer like its forged but cannot get a part # confirmation from Eagle's website.
New forged crank (Scat or Ohio) and new 6" rods may be all I need.
Stay tuned for next episode next week.

May not get into shop before I leave on Tuesday.....
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:32 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Rescue Rogers View Post
The pan looks like he never scrapped off the old RTV, just kept adding more, and if it fell off into the pan, thats what the filters for, LOL!!!!!
Bubba logic.....you have to love it.....
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:35 PM
  #28  
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Collecting 400 blocks can become addictive as now I have 3 and can't quit shopping for them. Learning more about them as I go. We picked up a 4 bolt 400 short block for a friend that had almost nothing to feel for a ridge at the top of the bore. Great low mileage block but once he got it home an old experienced corvette racer pointed out the large amount of core shift just looking at the lifter bores. Now not all core shift is problem as the pistons can move quite a lot for and aft on the pins and a good machine shop can recenter piston bores also to counter core shift. I mention this because it seems (at least to me) the 400 blocks seem to core shift frequently - but who knows how often?

You have plenty of work there and good luck. If it were mine I'd have that crank inspected and the rod journals radiused. Also get the block pressure tested -as with any block.

Last edited by cardo0; 05-26-2019 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:41 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by bmans vette View Post
I know that.
Teardown was first step.
Already been to local speed/machine shop I use to check schedule for magnafluxing the block.
But I have more prep work before I do that.
Knock out galley caps and tap for plug replacements. Including the one back by the oil pump. Shops miss that one sometimes and crap sits in there.
Remove all knockouts/freeze plugs.
Clean all oil galleys with brush and cleaners and blow out.
Grind down flash at oil returns and clearance the oil filter return.
Degrease/pressure wash and air blast it dry

NOT my first rodeo......

Thanks

Then we will see what the shop says and go from there........
OK , cowboy. Don't forget to chase ALL the threads in the block before it goes to the machine shop. Looks like a great deal.

I would loose that fancy pan/pickup for sure. Maybe someone else needs it more than you?
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:20 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by stingr69 View Post
OK , cowboy. Don't forget to chase ALL the threads in the block before it goes to the machine shop. Looks like a great deal.

I would loose that fancy pan/pickup for sure. Maybe someone else needs it more than you?
Good advice...chasing the threads

The pan is the kind that gets used for a modified project where the steering links are too close to the bottom of the engine.
I have seen Chevy IIs with this pan.
This one was supposedly used in a Datsun...

Maybe someone on ebay really needs it after I bang out all the dents and make sure it seals up.

How's your build doing?
Close to liftoff?
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:28 PM
  #31  
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Glad to hear you have recovered from the surgeries, few things rank up there with your health.
Hopefully they will be able to torque plate hone the bores and you will be back in business.
With the gaskets available today there is no need for all that rtv.
Good luck with your builds!
Dave
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:35 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 76strokervette View Post
Glad to hear you have recovered from the surgeries, few things rank up there with your health.
Hopefully they will be able to torque plate hone the bores and you will be back in business.
With the gaskets available today there is no need for all that rtv.
Good luck with your builds!
Dave
Thanks Dave
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:06 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by bmans vette View Post
Good advice...chasing the threads

The pan is the kind that gets used for a modified project where the steering links are too close to the bottom of the engine.
I have seen Chevy IIs with this pan.
This one was supposedly used in a Datsun...

Maybe someone on ebay really needs it after I bang out all the dents and make sure it seals up.

How's your build doing?
Close to liftoff?
Engine is all together. Just a few extra projects before we go in for the transplant. Carb needs a good long soak. The A-frames are getting new bushings (again) so I need to wrap that up first. You might be on the road before me. 🤓
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:12 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by bmans vette View Post
Hey Michael.
Daily pain is our life any more....so I don't dwell on it.

Inner workings of the block are pretty good.
Like I said in another post, the machine shop work is pretty good.

I ran a hone through the worst of the rusted 2 bores to see how deep. Not bad. Couple quick passes and all the rust gone but some staining left behind.
We will see what my guy at the machine shop says.
There is a very slight ridge but not much as the pistons slid through pretty easily.
Who knows...torque block hone and some new rings I might use the existing pistons. Probe pistons with small dish 12-20cc....which would put me around 10.88 with zero deck and other parts I am planning on using. Not sure about the zero deck either until I get a good measurement.
Probably change out the rods (Eagle ES with 8740 cap screws) because they have some grinding on the bottom.
And not sure about the crank....it rings when tapped with a hammer like its forged but cannot get a part # confirmation from Eagle's website.
New forged crank (Scat or Ohio) and new 6" rods may be all I need.
Stay tuned for next episode next week.

May not get into shop before I leave on Tuesday.....
6in rods and 12-20 cc dish may interfere with the rod and is why I choose 5.7in rods with 14cc dish, also the shorter rods dont require you to use small base circle cam.
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Old 05-28-2019, 04:48 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Kacyc3 View Post
6in rods and 12-20 cc dish may interfere with the rod and is why I choose 5.7in rods with 14cc dish, also the shorter rods dont require you to use small base circle cam.
Thanks for input.
I finally got response from Eagle direct about the part numbers I was able to find on the crank.

Its is an internally balanced cast crank.
3.75 stroke

So this was a 406 setup.
Next is to get a piston (spirolocks) off a rod and identify/measure them.

The cam is not a small base circle one.
But not sure if 5.7 in rods and matching pistons yet.

Heading out shortly on trip so this mystery will have to wait until my return.

The guy at Eagle said crank was good to 500hp as a street machine but would recommend forged for anything more demanding..
I told him Power Tour and 500 hp was plan in next year or so.

I had already planned on forged route but wanted to see what I have and what he suggested.

Anyone got some experience with the Scat 9000 series cranks? Supposed to be middle of forged and nodular cast.

I have always just gone with forged.
My 421 already has a Scat forged sitting in a box in my office....

Thanks for any and all opinions / feedback.

Dennis

Last edited by bmans vette; 05-28-2019 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:15 PM
  #36  
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Unless somebody spent some coin on mallory, that internally balanced crank should mandate 6" rods. This allows for longer counterweights which makes internal balancing easier.
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:29 AM
  #37  
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I'm personally not a fan of stock blocks for any performance buildings. You can have too much time and money invested with possible failure looming. I have a stock 4bolt block stroker motor , but I also addressed all the problems that I could. Fully ARP studded, billet steel main caps, revised oiling system with oil restricted top end, and high volume oil pump with blocked off bypass. Everything the stock block racing class motors get for reliable 750 hp applications.

With the availability of aftermarket blocks I don't consider motors like mine to be the best option.

As to 400 blocks, lots of. 030 and .040 are out there. Back in the day I owned a partially epoxy cement filled water jacket 400 motor. I had it tapped for 4 bolt main caps and the epoxy made the blocks more ridged

Last edited by gkull; 05-30-2019 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:03 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by gkull View Post
I'm personally not a fan of stock blocks for any performance buildings. You can have too much time and money invested with possible failure looming. I have a stock 4bolt block stroker motor , but I also addressed all the problems that I could. Fully ARP studded, billet steel main caps, revised oiling system with oil restricted top end, and high volume oil pump with blocked off bypass. Everything the stock block racing class motors get for reliable 750 hp applications.

With the availability of aftermarket blocks I don't consider motors like mine to be the best option.

As to 400 blocks, lots of. 030 and .040 are out there. Back in the day I owned a partially epoxy cement filled water jacket 400 motor. I had it tapped for 4 bolt main caps and the epoxy made the blocks more ridged

Hey George,
I hear you about stock block/performance builds.
This 400 block will be a mild 500hp unit. And everything is going to be beefed...ARP studs, quality forged bottom end, aluminum heads, improved oiling, cleaned up returns for oil. Oil breathers to keep the oil off the crank to keep the frothing in check. Crank screen. Larger oil pan and hp oil pump.Solid cooling system. Blueprint everything. Internal balance and bore hone.

Now for the next build 421/415 I already have a Dart SHP block and that target will be more like 600hp.
But there is a huge difference in block cost from one block to the other $1800 for the Dart and barely $500 for the stock one.
More machine shop work for the old one but the Dart will need precision work also.
If money was no object, then aftermarket would be my preference.
But we did build some strong motors with stock blocks in my drag days. 010 iron blocks and 12-1 pistons.....but then we had Sunoco 260 for 28 cents a gal.....lol
Back then engines were not the weak link. Aluminum case transmissions and cheap ujoints were....

Thanks for your input.
Once the shop tells me what I have and what I need to spend, I'll share it with you all

Dennis

Last edited by bmans vette; 05-30-2019 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:05 PM
  #39  
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Quick update.....finally got back from trip after 31 hrs total driving. Pretty beat. Plus lots to do around the house so no time to get into the shop.
Finally did today after cutting down large tree that fell onto my well house.
Some helpers moved in because I left the shop door open from the carport.
So now I have to give them some time to move out....lol
Carolina wrens......cute and noisy for their size. The nest is right above my circuit breaker panel.
I can work outside but not inside. I don't want to scare off the parents now with 3 dependents.
Sent my differential guts to Gary in CT. Collecting parts for that project too.

Stay tuned......
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:07 PM
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Well finally got back into shop as we are having huge thunderstorms keeping me from working outside.

Block needs to go to shop before I can move further on this.
I usually knock out all the plugs, hardware, sensors, freeze plugs, cam rear cap etc to make sure the entire block gets cleaned and the shop is thorough in their work when they boil it out and magnaflux it.
I prefer to do this along with deburring the block in several areas to improve oil flow.
I also tap out the holes in the lifter valley and install breather tubes. The idea being that the pressure stays constant but also the oil does not drop down on the crank and get whipped up with air. I have not cut the groove in the lifter bores but have seen that done in other builds. I may do that here.
The pic with the plugs shows a threaded rod that once I take off the back oil galley plugs, I use that to knock out the press in caps. I will tap those front holes and put in 1/4" screw in plugs. I'll also drill a small hole in at least one to provide a shot of oil to the back side of the timing gear where it meets the cam.




After reading some posts by others here to determine what I have in the way of parts, I was able to determine that the rods are in fact 5.7" Eagle forged.
Thanks Jackson.....
A little research and I took some other readings to see what the deck height is and what the piston displacement is so I can compute CR.
Did this for 2 reasons...
One to see what I have to do in regards to decking the block or not
Second to be able to give potential buy the info I have about the pistons, rods and crank.
I will do a burette test of the top of a piston to determine the CCs. I'll post that up later.
For now...I put the crank back in using the front and rear main caps and bearings. Levt the center bearing in place also. Snugged up the caps. Then using one piston with the rings removed, I tested the depth in the hole both front and back of the block. I used the same piston and the bearings it had with it. Again, just snugged them up.
Using a dial gauge and a bridge, I measure the 1&2, 7&8 piston bores.
I made sure to top out the piston and rock it in place as having no rings the piston has a slight rocking to it.
The distance in the hole to the top of each piston flat top is .005.
Same for front and back pistons which means I have a level deck.
One thing I did notice though was that the same piston used in all 4 holes, the rocking was a little greater in the 7&8 holes. When using the dial gauge and bridge I made sure to measure where the wrist pin area is first ad then 90 degrees to that spot. I rocked the piston and took the average of the depth at each location.

Since the pistons have a slight dish I made sure to take 4 measurements along the outer flat area.

So...if my thinking is correct...the block has been decked at some point and the present deck is now 9.005.
I'll do the burette measurement of the top of the piston soon and post that up.
I have the Dart 230 heads that came off it so I'll be able to compute the CR that this setup was.

Then I can go from there.

Btw....the Carolina wrens are doing fine.....

Last edited by bmans vette; 06-08-2019 at 04:14 PM.
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