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My 406/409 SBC build with Bubba!

 
Old 06-08-2019, 07:15 PM
  #41  
cardo0
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Before you boil/clean the block you want to get the hidden oil plug out from under the rear main cap. It forces the oil into the oil filter and if left in crud from the block cleaning can pile up behind it and if it is left out during reassembly the oil filter would be bypassed. That long threaded rod should work to knock it out from the hole on the rear china wall which is either plugged or a oil press sensor goes.

Don't mean to flame you but the deck clearance needs to be done with the new pistons though I see you know how to do it. I guess thats how they get the decks flat for good quench and even compression. Blue printing I think its called?
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cardo0 View Post
Before you boil/clean the block you want to get the hidden oil plug out from under the rear main cap. It forces the oil into the oil filter and if left in crud from the block cleaning can pile up behind it and if it is left out during reassembly the oil filter would be bypassed. That long threaded rod should work to knock it out from the hole on the rear china wall which is either plugged or a oil press sensor goes.

Don't mean to flame you but the deck clearance needs to be done with the new pistons though I see you know how to do it. I guess thats how they get the decks flat for good quench and even compression. Blue printing I think its called?

Thanks for the comments...
I did not mention the threaded pipe plug in the top of the china wall nor the one above the oil filter housing as they were in there SOLID. Got to them later today by using my oxy-acetylene torch to heat them up. That was after 2 days of PB blaster. Even then they were a beotch. Had to use these cool square plug removal tools I bought from Sears years ago. They are like easy-outs but are square and have a cutter type edge. You drive them into the plug and then use an adjustable wrench to back the plug out.
I'll get that last cup definitely before it goes to the shop.
Thanks for mentioning that though.....I am surprised that many people are not aware of that little sucker in there. That is why I always knock it out myself just in case the kid at the machine shop who gets to clean the blocks is not familiar with that little cup in our SBCs.

I'll degrease the block anyway and power wash, then hit the block and all the galleys with compressed air and make sure it is dry.
Then off to the shop.

Actually the deck height is constant no matter what pistons you put into it. (Assuming using the correct pistons for the length of rod used).
Until the block is ground down again...right?
I used the existing height of the rotating assembly to determine the block height.
What I think you are referring to is the piston height compared to the deck. And you are right, I will need to check the new piston clearance once the new setup is determined, just to make sure I have proper clearance.
Before I buy the new setup I need to know the existing deck height so I can compute what the CR will be with the new pistons/6" rods/3.75 stroke crank. Flat tops with no dish (less than 5cc) and I'll be over my target 10.75-11 to 1 CR if the block was zero decked.
Using .005 in the hole as my measurement, (3.75 stroke, 4.155 bore, 64cc head displacement as constant), .035 gasket for .040 quench,....I'll need pistons with 12cc dish in order to come in at 10.81 CR.
Correct me if I am wrong though.

I did look at a nice fancy deck height caliper that measures up to 12" but could not justify the $100+ cost for such a seldom used tool.

Thanks for any input....

Last edited by bmans vette; 06-08-2019 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:24 PM
  #43  
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The typical factory block deck is 9.025" or so. Yours may have been cut already .020". Piston pin height can vary but the stockers usually measure out that way.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:44 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by stingr69 View Post
The typical factory block deck is 9.025" or so. Yours may have been cut already .020". Piston pin height can vary but the stockers usually measure out that way.
That is what I was thinking also.
And like the other member posted, the pistons look to be milled to make up for that.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:07 PM
  #45  
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Now I am thinking a 421 with a 10.5 CR as I will probably replace the entire lower end.....

Thoughts?
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:35 PM
  #46  
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you can easily measure deck height via substitution; done right, it'll be very close to true.

crank is probably 3.750" but you can verify below.

piston CH probably ~ 1.425" but you can verify. For now, CH is primary unknown.

you already confirmed rod length (R) 5.7"

now, measure/verify piston compression height ... true most 3.75 - 5.7 combos have 1.425" CH ... not all, some 1.430" etc.

so first measure/verify your compression height with a caliper + 1/2 pin OD ( ~ 0.464") that's compression height number H

then leave one piston-rod in block on crank

to Verify stroke: measure piston height in bore from BDC to TDC.

then 1/2 measured stroke (probably3.75") ... so 3.75" / 2 = 1.875"

that number X (stroke x) + compression height H + 5.7" rod Minus how far down in hole at TDC (0.005") = current deck height.

e.g. 1.875" + 1.430" + 5.7" - 0.005" = theoretical deck height = 9.000"

e.g. 1.875" + 1.425" + 5.7" - 0.005"= DHt = 9.005"
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:24 AM
  #47  
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Found a great deal on a forged Scat Lightweight series in 3.875 stroke.
Looks like I'll be building a 421 with a 10.5 CR
Stay tuned...

Now to post the balanced rotating assy on ebay to recoup some costs.
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:59 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by bmans vette View Post
Found a great deal on a forged Scat Lightweight series in 3.875 stroke.
Looks like I'll be building a 421 with a 10.5 CR
Stay tuned...

Now to post the balanced rotating assy on ebay to recoup some costs.
You have a sickness... :-p
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:08 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by jackson View Post
you can easily measure deck height via substitution; done right, it'll be very close to true.

crank is probably 3.750" but you can verify below.

piston CH probably ~ 1.425" but you can verify. For now, CH is primary unknown.

you already confirmed rod length (R) 5.7"

now, measure/verify piston compression height ... true most 3.75 - 5.7 combos have 1.425" CH ... not all, some 1.430" etc.

so first measure/verify your compression height with a caliper + 1/2 pin OD ( ~ 0.464") that's compression height number H

then leave one piston-rod in block on crank

to Verify stroke: measure piston height in bore from BDC to TDC.

then 1/2 measured stroke (probably3.75") ... so 3.75" / 2 = 1.875"

that number X (stroke x) + compression height H + 5.7" rod Minus how far down in hole at TDC (0.005") = current deck height.

e.g. 1.875" + 1.430" + 5.7" - 0.005" = theoretical deck height = 9.000"

e.g. 1.875" + 1.425" + 5.7" + 0.005"= DHt = 9.005"
correction...the .005" in the hole needs to be added on in your equation, not subtracted......right????

CH checked in at 1.425 so yes the block has been shaved .020.
Deck height is 9.005"

All up to the machine shop now.

Last edited by bmans vette; 06-11-2019 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:31 PM
  #50  
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Latest...

Made a small CC kit to check the piston CC with after reading and watching some how to sites.
The pistons CCed out to 6.5 cc with the extra little area removed.
Using that figure, the bore and stroke, the deck height, the head CC, the gasket thickness....I come up with that originally this engine was 11.33 CR.

Hopefully off to the shop in next day or so.

Here's my little homemade setup.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:15 PM
  #51  
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Finally at the shop this afternoon.
First I tapped all the oil galley holes on the timing gear side. 1/4-18 NPT plugs size
Then I tapped all the lifter valley holes that drain back the oil on top of the cam and crank..again 1/4-18 NPT size. I'll install valley breather tubes in here.
There was a small chunk out of #8 cylinder wall at the bottom. Lines right up with where the rod would hit if it came loose. No pieces of metal in the pan so probably from long ago.. Ground it down so slightly to prevent any stress crack starting there. Measured with a piston in the hole to see if the piston skirt came very far past it. Compared to other cylinders it is only .3 inch. Changing over to 6" rods would eliminate this issue but even the shop owner said it was common and not to worry. The sonic/mangafluxing will be the final say on that.


Then I chased ALL the holes in the block....
Anyone know how many holes in a SBC 400?????....... 107!

Degreased it with engine cleaner and brake cleaner spray. Pressure washed it. Blew out all holes with compressed air. Used compressed air to help dry it. Then got out the oxy/acet torch and gave it a once over with wide flame. Used torch to heat up the head holding pins and removed them also. Sprayed the block (mainly the cyl) with metal protection spray.

Then off to the shop.
Had a full page typed up for the shop of what I knew and what I wanted them to do....but the darn printer would not work...lol
Wireless router went down during the night. So the list will wait until Monday now.

Its up to the shop now.
Now I can get back to the kitchen project (I hear the wife screaming).

Stay tuned.....

Happy Father's Day to you all.....

Last edited by bmans vette; 06-14-2019 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:54 PM
  #52  
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If you have plans to run ANY type roller cam, hyd or mech, I would make a recommendation here for you while your machine shop is doing the block work, ask them to prep the block to accept a thrust-plate cam setup (stepped-nose) like the later Chevv's use!

No need to check any cam end play or no need for any cam buttons, makes assembling the unit much easier, end-play is "fixed"?

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. If they are interested in helping you out simply get back to me with an e-mail [email protected], we've been supplying the entire kits with ALL the tooling to get the job done! Sold dozens so far!

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Old 06-14-2019, 09:52 PM
  #53  
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Hey Gary...
I saw this set up you guys are doing in another thread.
Thanks for the reminder.
I guess the cam is the late model version which means I would need to order that style. Leaning towards solid roller right now.
Got any cam recommendations? Always looking for suggestions.
I do have a Cloyes adjustable double roller timing gear/chain setup with their 2 piece cover but I can always use that on my next project build.
Thanks
Dennis
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:54 PM
  #54  
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Nice job Dennis, great to see progress. Are you using Carroll for the machine work?
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:46 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by 69ttop502 View Post
Nice job Dennis, great to see progress. Are you using Carroll for the machine work?
Hey Bill

Yes I am using them as I have done several with them now. Dave in the shop is the only owner now. Nice laid back guy and willing to spend time with questions.
Gonna be a busy summer around here.

When is the ETA on your baby?

Picked up a Dart SHP block for my next build after this one.

Take care up there.
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:38 AM
  #56  
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Dennis,
When you start the Shp build you may want to check out Callies crankshafts. They have the best cam to rod clearance that I know of
and may eliminate the need for a small base circle cam.
Dave
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:56 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by 76strokervette View Post
Dennis,
When you start the Shp build you may want to check out Callies crankshafts. They have the best cam to rod clearance that I know of
and may eliminate the need for a small base circle cam.
Dave
Sorry, but you need to rethink what actually contacts the cam lobe. It's the big end of the rod right at the rod bolt thread end against the heel or base circle of the cam

So it is not the crankshaft. It is the rod design. I have a top of the line callies pendulum cut 43 pound 4 inch stroker crankshaft in my 434 ci Motown SBC and the reason why I have to use a custom billet steel with a. 960 inch diameter smaller base circle is my 1200 hp rated H beam rods.

Another false statement I read on here the other week was someone else claiming that some stroker motors build needs shorter rods for cam clearance. It has minuscule potential clearance differences between a 6 inch rod and a 5.565 or 5.7 rod because of angularity. It is just the big end of the rod design size. The true statement is lower hp rated short rods have more cam lobe clearance because they were made for low hp stock motors

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Old 06-15-2019, 11:16 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by bmans vette View Post



Latest...

Made a small CC kit to check the piston CC with after reading and watching some how to sites.
The pistons CCed out to 6.5 cc with the extra little area removed.
Using that figure, the bore and stroke, the deck height, the head CC, the gasket thickness....I come up with that originally this engine was 11.33 CR.

Hopefully off to the shop in next day or so.

Here's my little homemade setup.
Interesting to see you made your own plexiglass plate as I'm in the process of making some special use plates for my heads. But I need to find out what works for drilling holes in plexiglass. If a normal drill gets caught it will crack up the plexiglass. What did you use to drill it? Start small holes first? A small piece is $5 plus a drive across town! And I see 2 holes. Is that extra for a vent? Might be good idea if it does work. Using windshield washer fluid? I've been using iso alcohol but ready to try WW fluid.

So I like your planning starting with a lesser block to sort everything out with first before working a expensive block over. Pretty much what I'm doing now with a second Gen block right now.

That #8 cylinder break has me stumped and I'm watching to see how it works out for you. I expect smoothing it out would be best rather try any weld and machine fix.

If you are fixed on a roller cam that would make some great power. But to me a budget build would use a flat tappet cam and there are plenty of solid flat tappet cams that make good power in sbc. You save a lot of $$ and don't need/want oil restrictors in the lifter valley with a flat tappet cam. Flat tappet just makes everything easier except for lifter break-in. Anyways I'm sure you have considered this.

Good luck.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:46 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by cardo0 View Post
Interesting to see you made your own plexiglass plate as I'm in the process of making some special use plates for my heads. But I need to find out what works for drilling holes in plexiglass. If a normal drill gets caught it will crack up the plexiglass. What did you use to drill it? Start small holes first? A small piece is $5 plus a drive across town! And I see 2 holes. Is that extra for a vent? Might be good idea if it does work. Using windshield washer fluid? I've been using iso alcohol but ready to try WW fluid.

So I like your planning starting with a lesser block to sort everything out with first before working a expensive block over. Pretty much what I'm doing now with a second Gen block right now.

That #8 cylinder break has me stumped and I'm watching to see how it works out for you. I expect smoothing it out would be best rather try any weld and machine fix.

If you are fixed on a roller cam that would make some great power. But to me a budget build would use a flat tappet cam and there are plenty of solid flat tappet cams that make good power in sbc. You save a lot of $$ and don't need/want oil restrictors in the lifter valley with a flat tappet cam. Flat tappet just makes everything easier except for lifter break-in. Anyways I'm sure you have considered this.

Good luck.
Thanks for the comments.
I drilled the plexiglass with a variable speed drill very slowly and with just one size drill..1/8" I think. So no cracking either hole. The 2 holes allows the air bubble to escape and make sure that you fill the space completely with the solution you use. My pic with the blue fluid is a little sloppy as I took my hand off the glass to take the pic. But my measurement is accurate.
Pretty much set on a roller cam as I have a set of Comp Cam retro lifters I picked up years ago.
I am always watching for deals where people sell off stalled projects, estate clearances, charity places that sell stuff donated, etc. It just takes time.
The only problem I have now is remembering what I bought. Found some engine pieces going through my shelves right after ordering the same pieces from Jeg's.....lol.
That's ok....they go in the next project.
The pic of the chunk knocked out is an early pic. Using my air grinder with a small wheel, I radiused the edge just down to the bottom of the knocked out area. Shop guy looked at it and said it was fine.
Tore down the oil pump that came with it. Greyish colored oil and some gouging by the gears of the end plate. Melling 10555 pump. I have one of their HVHP pumps on my shelf so we will see.
Interesting note...Dart with their SHP block recommends NOT using a HVHP pump as their priority main oiling system addresses the oiling issues with the SBC design. They say just to use a stock pump. They provide a nice 5 page tech notes sheet with their block....hope to get into that one this Fall.
Stay tuned.

Last edited by bmans vette; 06-15-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:47 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by gkull View Post
Sorry, but you need to rethink what actually contacts the cam lobe. It's the big end of the rod right at the rod bolt thread end against the heel or base circle of the cam

So it is not the crankshaft. It is the rod design. I have a top of the line callies pendulum cut 43 pound 4 inch stroker crankshaft in my 434 ci Motown SBC and the reason why I have to use a custom billet steel with a. 960 inch diameter smaller base circle is my 1200 hp rated H beam rods.

Another false statement I read on here the other week was someone else claiming that some stroker motors build needs shorter rods for cam clearance. It has minuscule potential clearance differences between a 6 inch rod and a 5.565 or 5.7 rod because of angularity. It is just the big end of the rod design size. The true statement is lower hp rated short rods have more cam lobe clearance because they were made for low hp stock motors
Good info as usual George....
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