HEI Help please
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,857
Likes: 959
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
I do not have 12 vdc between C+ and C-
I have zero volts
I do have 12 VDC between C+ and ground in 1st position of key now 11.3VDC while cranking. That's
I called tech support they went through mu wiring and asked me to run a separate ground to batt-.
They claim grounding has been an issue.\I did this no improvement.
They claim unit is defective and i must ask for a new unit.
Waiting on response from retailer.
I have zero volts
I do have 12 VDC between C+ and ground in 1st position of key now 11.3VDC while cranking. That's
I called tech support they went through mu wiring and asked me to run a separate ground to batt-.
They claim grounding has been an issue.\I did this no improvement.
They claim unit is defective and i must ask for a new unit.
Waiting on response from retailer.
If the coil measurements look okay, and the Dwell meter/Tachometer reads zero activity while cranking, that usually points to a bad distributor module (assuming things are wired up correctly). A lesser chance of a bad part can be the pickup/timing coil inside the distributor.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11,927
Likes: 4,497
From: Virginia
Not to pick on you, and I hope you do get your car squared away soon, but there's a reason why Chinese-made eBay trash is so inexpensive. If you want an HEI unit, and don't need a mechanical tach drive, why not get one from a later C3? I have a ZZ4 take-off tach on my 79. Looks stock, and works great after following Lars' upgrades.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
Thanks
Yes you get what you pay for is certainly the case.
Retailer claimed made in USA
I do need a tach drive and did not want to spend 450.
I bet Some of the "Better" units out there are also made in China
Yes you get what you pay for is certainly the case.
Retailer claimed made in USA
I do need a tach drive and did not want to spend 450.
I bet Some of the "Better" units out there are also made in China
Last edited by mike914; Jul 16, 2019 at 08:36 PM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
Hello 69427
I checked ground to C- and C+ and get 12 VDC at 1st on position and around 11 cranking.
Next I hooked up dwell and tach meter
At first key position dwell swings to 6 degrees but does not move at all while cranking
At 1st key position RPM is Zero and does not move while cranking.
I spoke with Tech support
He suggested I run a separate wire from ground on distributor to Battery -
He also suggested to OHM out coil wire
Did both no improvement.
Tech deemed it to be a bad unit
Called retailer and so far they have agreed to take it back and send a replacement
While removing distributor I bought a bump starter boy was that worth the 15 bucks
I indexed the motor to TDC while holding thumb over 1st spark plug hole
Blew my thumb out forcefully and stopped exactly on timing mark
Rotor was pointing at spark plug #1 so I feel I am not 180 off and on the compression stroke.
Curious I ohmed out the coil
Zero ohms between C+ and C-
Open between Center connector and +
5 Ohms between center connector and -
Maybe the coil??
Hope they swap it all out
I will keep everyone updated.
Thanks
Mike
Boxed up and will ship tomorrow
Hope
I checked ground to C- and C+ and get 12 VDC at 1st on position and around 11 cranking.
Next I hooked up dwell and tach meter
At first key position dwell swings to 6 degrees but does not move at all while cranking
At 1st key position RPM is Zero and does not move while cranking.
I spoke with Tech support
He suggested I run a separate wire from ground on distributor to Battery -
He also suggested to OHM out coil wire
Did both no improvement.
Tech deemed it to be a bad unit
Called retailer and so far they have agreed to take it back and send a replacement
While removing distributor I bought a bump starter boy was that worth the 15 bucks
I indexed the motor to TDC while holding thumb over 1st spark plug hole
Blew my thumb out forcefully and stopped exactly on timing mark
Rotor was pointing at spark plug #1 so I feel I am not 180 off and on the compression stroke.
Curious I ohmed out the coil
Zero ohms between C+ and C-
Open between Center connector and +
5 Ohms between center connector and -
Maybe the coil??
Hope they swap it all out
I will keep everyone updated.
Thanks
Mike
Boxed up and will ship tomorrow
Hope
Last edited by mike914; Jul 16, 2019 at 08:35 PM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,857
Likes: 959
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Hello 69427
I checked ground to C- and C+ and get 12 VDC at 1st on position and around 11 cranking.
Next I hooked up dwell and tach meter
At first key position dwell swings to 6 degrees but does not move at all while cranking
At 1st key position RPM is Zero and does not move while cranking. Yeah, looks like there's no voltage swings on the C- lead during cranking. Something is amiss in the system.
I spoke with Tech support
He suggested I run a separate wire from ground on distributor to Battery -
He also suggested to OHM out coil wire
Did both no improvement.
Tech deemed it to be a bad unit
Called retailer and so far they have agreed to take it back and send a replacement
While removing distributor I bought a bump starter boy was that worth the 15 bucks
I indexed the motor to TDC while holding thumb over 1st spark plug hole
Blew my thumb out forcefully and stopped exactly on timing mark
Rotor was pointing at spark plug #1 so I feel I am not 180 off and on the compression stroke.
Curious I ohmed out the coil
Zero ohms between C+ and C- There should be around 1-2 ohms (for an average coil) between those terminals.
Open between Center connector and + Most can coils have one end of the center (high tension) winding hooked to the C+ terminal. I would expect that you would measure 5-10 kOhms between these terminals.
5 Ohms between center connector and - If this coil has one end of the center winding hooked to the C- lead, I would still expect to see 5-10 kOhms between those two points.
Maybe the coil??
Hope they swap it all out
I will keep everyone updated.
Thanks
Mike
Boxed up and will ship tomorrow
Hope
I checked ground to C- and C+ and get 12 VDC at 1st on position and around 11 cranking.
Next I hooked up dwell and tach meter
At first key position dwell swings to 6 degrees but does not move at all while cranking
At 1st key position RPM is Zero and does not move while cranking. Yeah, looks like there's no voltage swings on the C- lead during cranking. Something is amiss in the system.
I spoke with Tech support
He suggested I run a separate wire from ground on distributor to Battery -
He also suggested to OHM out coil wire
Did both no improvement.
Tech deemed it to be a bad unit
Called retailer and so far they have agreed to take it back and send a replacement
While removing distributor I bought a bump starter boy was that worth the 15 bucks
I indexed the motor to TDC while holding thumb over 1st spark plug hole
Blew my thumb out forcefully and stopped exactly on timing mark
Rotor was pointing at spark plug #1 so I feel I am not 180 off and on the compression stroke.
Curious I ohmed out the coil
Zero ohms between C+ and C- There should be around 1-2 ohms (for an average coil) between those terminals.
Open between Center connector and + Most can coils have one end of the center (high tension) winding hooked to the C+ terminal. I would expect that you would measure 5-10 kOhms between these terminals.
5 Ohms between center connector and - If this coil has one end of the center winding hooked to the C- lead, I would still expect to see 5-10 kOhms between those two points.
Maybe the coil??
Hope they swap it all out
I will keep everyone updated.
Thanks
Mike
Boxed up and will ship tomorrow
Hope
Racer
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 495
Likes: 85
not sure if you're set on having a points replacement, or would be willing to use an HEI, but I used this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/231872586498
It worked fine after some normal tuning. You have to run a new (non resistor) wire, but it fixed my issue and seems like less stuff to go wrong in the future compared to a points distributor.
Sure the one you have keeps the separate coil and a bit more stock looking, but it seems like if you cared about that you wouldn't be buying this unit off of ebay to begin with. Personally, I don't always go along with this whole "parts from china always suck" mentality. This stuff has been around for more than 45 years. If it works, use it! There are plenty of american companies that have to cut costs/quality in order to make any money, or they make their product in China and slap the label on in the US.
When i bought my 1972, the seller didn't have the chrome ignition cover, and I believe the larger HEI wouldn't fit under it.
All depends on how original looking you want to be.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/231872586498
It worked fine after some normal tuning. You have to run a new (non resistor) wire, but it fixed my issue and seems like less stuff to go wrong in the future compared to a points distributor.
Sure the one you have keeps the separate coil and a bit more stock looking, but it seems like if you cared about that you wouldn't be buying this unit off of ebay to begin with. Personally, I don't always go along with this whole "parts from china always suck" mentality. This stuff has been around for more than 45 years. If it works, use it! There are plenty of american companies that have to cut costs/quality in order to make any money, or they make their product in China and slap the label on in the US.
When i bought my 1972, the seller didn't have the chrome ignition cover, and I believe the larger HEI wouldn't fit under it.
All depends on how original looking you want to be.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
Thanks Mongoose87
I wanted to use the HEI with built in coil but only had 5" of room for the distributor.
Most HEI units are up to 7" in diameter and it would colllide with my air filter.
The unit I selected has a diameter of 4.5" and fits perfectly
I wanted to use the HEI with built in coil but only had 5" of room for the distributor.
Most HEI units are up to 7" in diameter and it would colllide with my air filter.
The unit I selected has a diameter of 4.5" and fits perfectly
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Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,019
Likes: 1,119
From: North tonawanda NY
Ive been running a cheap ebay tach drive hei setup for 5 years or so now. its the larger cap which does fit on my 74. my original equipment was mostly missing when I bought the project.
Since its been broght up so many times, I would love to know where In the united states they still even make this stuff because much of these brand names like accel and mallory and the like have been bought out and manufacturing outsourced to china by holley or whomever owns the branding rights this week. Almost all of these companies no longer exist as a real stand alone independent company and many no longer even have have true manufacturing plants (and if they do they usually make a very small portion of thier product line here).. Last time I looked I could not find a single new oil filled coil that was made in the usa...
A huge portion of the automotive market is generic rebranded parts. look at autolite... honeywell now outsourced the spark plugs to so many countries the last time I got a set of four for my old vw kitcar they came from 3 different countries and didnt even all look the same although they were the same part number.
Since its been broght up so many times, I would love to know where In the united states they still even make this stuff because much of these brand names like accel and mallory and the like have been bought out and manufacturing outsourced to china by holley or whomever owns the branding rights this week. Almost all of these companies no longer exist as a real stand alone independent company and many no longer even have have true manufacturing plants (and if they do they usually make a very small portion of thier product line here).. Last time I looked I could not find a single new oil filled coil that was made in the usa...
A huge portion of the automotive market is generic rebranded parts. look at autolite... honeywell now outsourced the spark plugs to so many countries the last time I got a set of four for my old vw kitcar they came from 3 different countries and didnt even all look the same although they were the same part number.
Last edited by augiedoggy; Jul 18, 2019 at 08:25 AM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
Updates
Hello And Thank everyone for your advice
I received my replacement coil and distributor this week.
Dropped it in this Morning
Started right up.
Set initial timing to 11.9 at 740 RPM
I'm at 31 at 3000 RPM
I need to re-read Lar's paper to set up the distributor.
Also this is with no vacuum advance yet...
Should I simply add a hose from the top port of my carb to the canister on the distributor?
Thanks
Mike
I received my replacement coil and distributor this week.
Dropped it in this Morning
Started right up.
Set initial timing to 11.9 at 740 RPM
I'm at 31 at 3000 RPM
I need to re-read Lar's paper to set up the distributor.
Also this is with no vacuum advance yet...
Should I simply add a hose from the top port of my carb to the canister on the distributor?
Thanks
Mike
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
Hello And Thank everyone for your advice
I received my replacement coil and distributor this week.
Dropped it in this Morning
Started right up.
Set initial timing to 11.9 at 740 RPM
I'm at 31 at 3000 RPM
I need to re-read Lar's paper to set up the distributor.
Also this is with no vacuum advance yet...
Should I simply add a hose from the top port of my carb to the canister on the distributor?
Thanks
Mike
I received my replacement coil and distributor this week.
Dropped it in this Morning
Started right up.
Set initial timing to 11.9 at 740 RPM
I'm at 31 at 3000 RPM
I need to re-read Lar's paper to set up the distributor.
Also this is with no vacuum advance yet...
Should I simply add a hose from the top port of my carb to the canister on the distributor?
Thanks
Mike
I have used the China MSD knockoff many times on Hot Rods and they are sold by Allstar performance as well.........I have one in a 54 Chevy truck with a 305 that I built for a friend in 2012 and he still drives it every day..........about 15k miles on it......
Jebby
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
You need 5 more degrees of timing at 3000rpm. Did you set the mechanical curve up to be all in at 3000rpm along with choosing the right stop bushing (black,red,blue,silver bushing in the small package). This is important for proper tuning.........also the vac advance can is adjustable so adjust it to pull around 12 degrees at idle. Use a programmable digital timing light and it is easy.....
I have used the China MSD knockoff many times on Hot Rods and they are sold by Allstar performance as well.........I have one in a 54 Chevy truck with a 305 that I built for a friend in 2012 and he still drives it every day..........about 15k miles on it......
Jebby
I have used the China MSD knockoff many times on Hot Rods and they are sold by Allstar performance as well.........I have one in a 54 Chevy truck with a 305 that I built for a friend in 2012 and he still drives it every day..........about 15k miles on it......
Jebby
Unit comes with Gray advance bushing 21 degrees
Also ships with Silver advance springs 3750
I had my adjustable timing light on the harmonic balancer and at 3000 I read 31 degrees
I turned accelerator a little more to 3500 and there was no change on balancer.
I purchased the spring kit Lars recommends do you think adding the gold springs would help?
Car starts well and idles well but is slower than my point set up off the line.
Actually runs smoother but its more reserved.
Is this normal?
I hear increasing spark gap may help a bit.
Thank You
Mike
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
Thanks Jebby for your advice
Unit comes with Gray advance bushing 21 degrees
Also ships with Silver advance springs 3750
I had my adjustable timing light on the harmonic balancer and at 3000 I read 31 degrees
I turned accelerator a little more to 3500 and there was no change on balancer.
I purchased the spring kit Lars recommends do you think adding the gold springs would help?
Car starts well and idles well but is slower than my point set up off the line.
Actually runs smoother but its more reserved.
Is this normal?
I hear increasing spark gap may help a bit.
Thank You
Mike
Unit comes with Gray advance bushing 21 degrees
Also ships with Silver advance springs 3750
I had my adjustable timing light on the harmonic balancer and at 3000 I read 31 degrees
I turned accelerator a little more to 3500 and there was no change on balancer.
I purchased the spring kit Lars recommends do you think adding the gold springs would help?
Car starts well and idles well but is slower than my point set up off the line.
Actually runs smoother but its more reserved.
Is this normal?
I hear increasing spark gap may help a bit.
Thank You
Mike
The distributor should have come with springs....use one light silver and one light blue.
Jebby
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11,927
Likes: 4,497
From: Virginia
I'm glad it's working out for you!
If you are "all in" with mechanical advance at 3000 rpm, you likely already have the correct springs installed. Set the distributor such that you are at 36 degrees advanced at the all-in point, and you'll find the extra power. Right now, you are 5 degrees retarded from optimum. That should be enough for a seat of the pants improvement when fixed.
What is the range of your vacuum advance?
If you are "all in" with mechanical advance at 3000 rpm, you likely already have the correct springs installed. Set the distributor such that you are at 36 degrees advanced at the all-in point, and you'll find the extra power. Right now, you are 5 degrees retarded from optimum. That should be enough for a seat of the pants improvement when fixed.
What is the range of your vacuum advance?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
I'm glad it's working out for you!
If you are "all in" with mechanical advance at 3000 rpm, you likely already have the correct springs installed. Set the distributor such that you are at 36 degrees advanced at the all-in point, and you'll find the extra power. Right now, you are 5 degrees retarded from optimum. That should be enough for a seat of the pants improvement when fixed.
What is the range of your vacuum advance?
If you are "all in" with mechanical advance at 3000 rpm, you likely already have the correct springs installed. Set the distributor such that you are at 36 degrees advanced at the all-in point, and you'll find the extra power. Right now, you are 5 degrees retarded from optimum. That should be enough for a seat of the pants improvement when fixed.
What is the range of your vacuum advance?
I took Jebby's advice and re-gapped the plugs to .40 and installed the lighter springs
Started right up and idles well.
I am at 12.4 degrees 730 RPM Idle
All in at 33 at 3000 RPM
This is without any vacuum advance
I took if for a long ride
Performed pretty well
No sputtering or stalling
Better off the line and under load
Still needs a bit of tuning idles at 750 shakes a bit more and exhaust is louder.
Should I adjust the all in timing to 36?
Also when I do this is the next step to connect the vacuum?
Will I need too re-adjust the timing after I add in the vacuum?
Thanks
Mike
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
Thanks Bikespace and Jebby
I took Jebby's advice and re-gapped the plugs to .40 and installed the lighter springs
Started right up and idles well.
I am at 12.4 degrees 730 RPM Idle
All in at 33 at 3000 RPM
This is without any vacuum advance
I took if for a long ride
Performed pretty well
No sputtering or stalling
Better off the line and under load
Still needs a bit of tuning idles at 750 shakes a bit more and exhaust is louder.
Should I adjust the all in timing to 36?
Also when I do this is the next step to connect the vacuum?
Will I need too re-adjust the timing after I add in the vacuum?
Thanks
Mike
I took Jebby's advice and re-gapped the plugs to .40 and installed the lighter springs
Started right up and idles well.
I am at 12.4 degrees 730 RPM Idle
All in at 33 at 3000 RPM
This is without any vacuum advance
I took if for a long ride
Performed pretty well
No sputtering or stalling
Better off the line and under load
Still needs a bit of tuning idles at 750 shakes a bit more and exhaust is louder.
Should I adjust the all in timing to 36?
Also when I do this is the next step to connect the vacuum?
Will I need too re-adjust the timing after I add in the vacuum?
Thanks
Mike
Jebby
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
Thanks Jebby
I finally got it running well without vacuum advance.
Idle 730 RPM advance was 18
3000 RPM was 36 degrees
Then I connected vacuum advance from the low port on the carb
I believe it is below the throttle plate and still considered manifold vacuum
I was initially at 20 IDLE
and 56 degrees at 3200 RPM
Dialed it down to 12 at IDLE
Still at 51 at 3200 RPM
Will this much advance hurt my engine?
I cannot hear pinging no dieseling etc.
93 octane gas.
Seems to run fine
What am I doing wrong?
Thanks
I finally got it running well without vacuum advance.
Idle 730 RPM advance was 18
3000 RPM was 36 degrees
Then I connected vacuum advance from the low port on the carb
I believe it is below the throttle plate and still considered manifold vacuum
I was initially at 20 IDLE
and 56 degrees at 3200 RPM
Dialed it down to 12 at IDLE
Still at 51 at 3200 RPM
Will this much advance hurt my engine?
I cannot hear pinging no dieseling etc.
93 octane gas.
Seems to run fine
What am I doing wrong?
Thanks
Last edited by mike914; Aug 2, 2019 at 03:22 PM.