DJ Dep

A while back I asked a question here about the ZL-1 and what factory equipment it had. Specifically the heater/defroster. I asked if anyone had PERSONALLY seen either of the ZL-1 cars and if they were equipped with a heater/defroster, since I had read at numerous websites that they had neither. While I DID receive a lot of knowledgeable opinions about federal law requiring heater/defrosters in 1969 on all cars, I had no posts about folks who had actually SEEN the ZL-1 cars with heater/defrosters in them. Well I have found pics of the ZL-1 interior on the yellow car and here is the definite proof. NO HEATER/DEFROSTERS!!!
Remember, these cars were NOT built for street use. So Chevy was able to get around the heater requirement. Note the black panel where the heater controls go and the radio block off plate.
http://www.corvettemagazine.com/2001...zl1/zl1pg2.asp
http://www.corvettemagazine.com/2001...zl1/zl1pg3.asp

I can fabricate my own block off plate for the heater, no problemo.
I've already ripped out the heater/defroster/AC and all the ductwork.
Radio is also ripped out.

The radio delete plate IS available for the measly price of $150!!!!
LOL...probably cost MORE than a radio!!! :D

Thanks again to those that tried to help with my question. Seeing IS believing :D

Dep




[Modified by Dep, 10:24 AM 10/26/2003]

rainman69

Where's the proof? I see a heater/vent control unit. I also see in the same article



which I posted in your first thread. It shows the heater hose coming off the intake.

Pete79L82

I have to agree. On this picture you can clearly see the thumbwheels and blower switch.



And on the picture of the engine you can clearly see the heater hose at the manifold.


For some even facts aren't enough proof. I quess seeing is NOT believing! :D :lolg:


Pete

jonstr

For what it's worth, here are a couple of photos of the "other" supposedly original ZL-1 from http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/...9ZL1/index.htm, both pretty clearly showing heater/defroster controls and hoses.

rainman69

The only 'ZL-1' I can find that did not have a heater is Duntov's custom built ZL-1 from a 1969 L-88.



And I quote:

"The production versions will meet all the standards, and will be sold with street equipment, but using the car as transportation would be wasteful."


[Modified by rainman69, 12:10 PM 10/26/2003]

DJ Dep

I was in error with the heater block off plate (actually, it was the ashtray :lol:) . I was wrong and I admit it :)
HOWEVER, heater hoses and heater controls do NOT a heater-equipped car make :) I yanked the heater/AC out of my '72 and I still have both those "heater hoses". They go in and out of the expansion tank. So seeing a heater hose is NOT conclusive proof that there is a heater in the car. And seeing heater controls really doesn't prove anything either. Are they FUNCTIONAL?

Here's some more info I dug up....
--------------------------------------
It is not surprising that there is a dearth of certifiable information about street versions of the ZL-1 (note, by the way that ZL-1 is the engine option designation, not the car's sub-model or trim level name, but we are using it for simplicity's sake to identify the car.) After all, they weren't built for the street. Instead, the exotic all-alloy ZL-1 big-block engine was intended strictly for racing. In an effort to enforce this edict, ZL-1-equipped Corvettes were not equipped with a heater or defroster. But the bigger deterrent to purchase by non-racing civilians was the price. The ZL-1 engine itself carried a $3,000 price tag (that's in 1969 dollars) and with the other extras that a check the ZL-1 option box required, the total package ran over $6,000 more than a standard-issue base Corvette. In total, the list price was well over $10,000, and while that seems a steal today, the fact was virtually nobody wanted to spring for that kind of money for a Corvette -- or pretty much any other sports car in that day and age.
http://www.drivingtoday.com/carstuff...s/corvette_zl/
--------------------------------

And to those who think there were only TWO 1969 ZL-1 Vettes....it turns out there were more than that. TWO were production versions sold to the public. Two more were constructed for press testing...one with a stick (white in color) and one with an auto (red in color). Plus other ZL-1 engine Vettes were built/installed for racing duties. As in the one below. NOTE what was removed!!! :)


1969 ZL-1"Cafe Racer" Corvette

All non-essential parts were removed: bumpers, upholstery, radio, spare tire, headlights, and heater. Then the good stuff was added. Cast-iron exhaust manifolds, mufflers, and pipes were replaced with steel header side exhausts. Racing mag wheels were 15 inches in diameter by 10.5 inches wide with non-D.O.T. approved, racing tires. Using the roadster body with a fixed hardtop roof, the only body mods were huge fender flares, the optional ZL-1 domed hood, and a lip along the leading edge of the hood to keep it from blowing off at 180-plus mph! This car was never driven on a public road, as it was a "research vehicle" only.
http://www.illustratedcorvetteseries...tov_Vette.html
---------------------------------


Looks like the only way I am gonna be able to find out FOR SURE if they had heaters is to ask the guy who owned the yellow one. So I'm e-mailing Rogers Corvettes for an answer.

Dep

Rowdy Rat

Radios were not standard equipment on Corvettes back in the late 1960s/early 1970s. As such, L-88s/ZL-1s were not "radio delete"... The restriction simply didn't allow for a radio to be ordered when so equipped.

All production Corvettes beginning with the 1968 model year had heaters/defrosters... This included all of the L-88/ZL-1 equipped cars.

The reason for this (as opposed to the 1967 Corvette which could be ordered with RPO C-48 - heater/defroster delete for credit) was a federal regulation which required that all cars that were to be sold in the continental United States had to have a functional defroster... Which pretty much required a functional heater. As it turned out, it was easier and cheaper for Chevrolet to install this equipment in ALL Corvettes which is why even Alaska/Hawaii/export Corvettes had heaters/defrosters as well.

While I don't even want to start with issue of which of the ZL-1s out there today are the "two" that are referenced in Chevrolet production records, I have seen the Daytona yellow car owned by Roger Judski as well as the CanAm white car owned by Kevin Suydam... I also know the people who restored both of these cars. I can tell you with 100% certainty that they are equipped with heaters... As are 70+ 1968/1969 L-88s that I've seen in person.

The following is a reprint of the regulation regarding the defroster...

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 5, Parts 400 to 999]
[Revised as of October 1, 2000]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR571.103]
[Page 200-201]

TITLE 49—TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER V--NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

PART 571--FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS—Table of Contents

Subpart B--Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

Sec. 571.103 Standard No. 103; Windshield defrosting and defogging systems.

S1. Scope. This standard specifies requirements for windshield defrosting and defogging systems.
S2. Application. This standard applies to passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, and buses.
S3. Definitions. Road load means the power output required to move a given motor vehicle at curb weight plus 180 kilograms on level, clean, dry, smooth portland cement concrete pavement (or other surface with equivalent coefficient of surface friction) at a specified speed through still air at 20 degrees Celsius, and standard barometric pressure (101.3 kilopascals) and includes driveline friction, rolling friction, and air resistance.
S4. Requirements.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each passenger car shall meet the requirements specified in S4.1, S4.2, and S4.3, and each multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, and bus shall meet the requirements specified in Sec. 4.1.

[[Page 201]]

(b) Each passenger car, multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, and bus manufactured for sale in the noncontinental United States may, at the option of the manufacturer, have a windshield defogging system which operates either by applying heat to the windshield or by dehumidifying the air inside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, in lieu of meeting the requirements specified by paragraph (a) of this section.
S4.1 Each vehicle shall have a windshield defrosting and defogging system.
S4.2 Each passenger car windshield defrosting and defogging system shall meet the requirements of section 3 of SAE Recommended Practice J902, ``Passenger Car Windshield Defrosting Systems,'' August 1964, when tested in accordance with S4.3, except that ``the critical area'' specified in paragraph 3.1 of SAE Recommended Practice J902 shall be that established as Area C in accordance with Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 104, ``Windshield Wiping and Washing Systems,'' and ``the entire windshield'' specified in paragraph 3.3 of SAE Recommended Practice J902 shall be that established as Area A in accordance with Sec. 571.104.
S4.3 Demonstration procedure. The passenger car windshield defrosting and defogging system shall be tested in accordance with the portions of paragraphs 4.1 through 4.4.7 of SAE Recommended Practice J902, August 1964, or SAE Recommended Practice J902a, March 1967, applicable to that system, except that—
(a) During the first 5 minutes of the test:
(1) For a passenger car equipped with a heating system other than a heat exchanger type that uses the engine's coolant as a means to supply the heat to the heat exchanger, the warm-up procedure is that specified by the vehicle's manufacturer for cold weather starting, except that connection to a power or heat source external to the vehicle is not permitted.
(2) For all other passenger cars, the warm-up procedure may be that recommended by the vehicle's manufacturer for cold weather starting.
(b) During the last 35 minutes of the test period (or the entire test period if the 5-minute warm-up procedure specified in paragraph (a) of this section is not used),
(1) For a passenger car equipped with a heating system other than a heat exchanger type that uses the engine's coolant as a means to supply the heat to the heat exchanger, the procedure shall be that specified by the vehicle's manufacturer for cold weather starting, except that connection to a power or heat source external to the vehicle is not permitted.
(2) For all other passenger cars, either—
(i) The engine speed shall not exceed 1,500 r.p.m. in neutral gear; or
(ii) The engine speed and load shall not exceed the speed and load at 40 kilometers per hour in the manufacturer's recommended gear with road load;
(c) A room air change of 90 times per hour is not required;
(d) The windshield wipers may be used during the test if they are operated without manual assist;
(e) One or two windows may be open a total of 25 millimeters;
(f) The defroster blower may be turned on at any time; and
(g) The wind velocity is at any level from 0 to 3 kilometers per hour.
(h) The test chamber temperature and the wind velocity shall be measured, after the engine has been started, at the forwardmost point of the vehicle or a point 914 millimeters from the base of the windshield, whichever is farther forward, at a level halfway between the top and bottom of the windshield on the vehicle centerline.

[36 FR 22902, Dec. 2, 1971, as amended at 40 FR 12992, Mar. 24, 1975; 40 FR 32336, Aug. 1, 1975; 50 FR 48775, Nov. 27, 1985; 59 FR 11006, Mar. 9, 1994; 60 FR 13642, Mar. 14, 1995]

Regards,

DJ Dep

Stan: Since BOTH the production Vette ZL-1s that are out there have been rebuilt, we don't REALLY know if what is on there now CAME with the car or if was installed by a later owner. And since these cars were NOT designed for street use, there is nothing in any law that REQUIRES them to be equipped with heaters.

I e-mailed Roger Corvettes and got this response....

Thank you for contacting Roger's Corvette Center.

We're sorry, but we will be unable to respond to any emails received between Saturday, Oct 25th and Monday, Nov 3rd. Rest assured that we WILL respond to your email just as soon as we possibly can.

If you should have any questions you need an immediate answer to, please don't hesitate to call us at 407-628-8300 and we'll do our very best to help.

Thanks!

David Judski, Jr.
Roger's Corvette Center http://www.rogerscorvette.com

Guess they are doing some trick or treating over there :)
When I get a reply I will post it on the forum.

Dep
P.S. The radios were deleted (not just "not ordered") because the ZL-1 did NOT come with radio suppression equipment like the factory Vettes did, and you COULDN'T order them WITH radios because you wouldn't hear squat because of the static they would pick up.


[Modified by Dep, 10:29 AM 10/27/2003]

Tom73

Dep,
I think you are missing one key point here. These cars had VINs. As such they are designed for the street and thus have to meet all the laws/standards that were in effect at the time of production. Chevy may have discouraged their street use but they were legal street cars.

tom...

DJ Dep

Tom: not to be a haggler :) but the earliest date I can see on that law is 1971.
Plus other makers ALSO made cars with VINs that were NOT designed for the street and came with warning labels stating so. The 1968 Hemi-cuda and the 1966-67 Ford Fairlane 427 both come to mind immediately. Chrysler even plastered all over the windows of the Barracuda that it was NOT covered by Chrysler's 5 year/50,000 mile warranty.

Dep

Tom73

I remember those when they came out. But, warranty or no warranty, they were street cars, street legal.

tom...

DJ Dep

Hardly street cars....13-1 compression, wild solid lifter cams...4.11 gears...
they were sold to guys who RACED...not cruised McDonalds.

Dep

Rowdy Rat

Dep,

Chevrolet prodution records show two ZL-1 optioned Corvettes produced for sale. Does it mean that there were only two production ZL-1 equipped cars? Not by a long shot. People assume that Chevrolet's records are accurate and complete... They aren't. Until complete and accurate records are presented, I'm willing to keep an open mind as to how many ZL-1 equipped Corvettes were built. :)

You make a good point regarding the two cars in question... They have been restored. Still, there are tell tale signs that they were heater equipped... Plus the dozen or so unrestored L-88s that I have been fortunate enough to see in person have heaters so that is reasonable evidence that the ZL-1s received them as well.

The cars were not intended for street use, but they were fully engineered and certified to be registered as street cars... And as such, they had to meet the applicable regulations of the day. For 1968 and up, they had to have a functional defroster and therefore, a functional heater.

In reference to our era cars (1968-1982), a radio was not standard equipment until 1977 or 1978. When you ordered a radio (RPO U-69 or U-69/U-79), the radio suppression hardware (ignition shielding, resistors, etc.) was included as part of the option... It's all in the AIM.

Because a radio was not standard equipment, you can't "delete" what isn't there in the first place. On a 1968 L-88 or 1969 L-88/ZL-1 the restriction was simply that a radio could not be ordered.

As for the dates on the federal regulation regarding defrosters, it was put into place for the 1968 model year... The dates noted are when the noted revisions occurred.

Regards,

DJ Dep

Stan: Can't and won't argue with your points. They are all good ones. Still curious to hear from Rogers Corvettes. Have to wait till they get back from tirck or treating.

BTW...the one place that actually SELLS the block-off plate for the radio (Corvette Central) actually DOES call them "radio delete plates". Oh well :)

Dep

no_radio

OK, as the owner of a radio delete car (1974 coupe with original tank sticker) let me comment on this.

First, Chevrolet called the RPO "UL5 RADIO DELETE". It's on my tank sticker, and Rolf Krueger (rest in peace) gave me a copy of a 1975 radio delete tank sticker with the same code and text. Yes, I know a radio was not standard, but Chevrolet called it radio delete, why shouldn't we?

According to the NCRS a few unrestored radio delete cars have been seen with some or all of the RFI suppression in place, however, it appears that the majority did not. Those that had it may have just been factory errors. My car is one that did not have the suppression in place. They also didn't have an antenna installed. If you visit the Bodywork page on my web site there is a picture where the antenna hole would have been knocked out on a radio equipped car, but instead the knockout edge is filled with the same filler as the body seams on the fenders, etc. while the center is still fiberglass.

As for the reproduction cover plate, I have and NOS piece and a reproduction. They are actually manufactured by Paragon Reproductions, and are an excellent piece. From the front you cannot tell the difference, there is a slight variation to the back but who's gonna look?

Dep, you might find an NOS one on Ebay, I got mine for about $150 a couple years ago.

Later
Jeff

Tom73

Jeff,
Couldn't the RPO "UL5 RADIO DELETE" have been for the antenna and the ignition shielding rather than the radio? Just a way of saying to the assembly line that no radio was ordered so do not install an antenna or the ignition shielding.

tom...


[Modified by Tom73, 5:33 PM 10/27/2003]

DJ Dep

Jeff: The one from Corvette Central is also $150. Interesting about the "radio delete" option code. You may have a point and it is just "splitting semantic hairs" to argue over the technicalities of it all.

Dep

rainman69

Dep,

The articles I posted are from 1969 and right around there. In several places I've seen it mentioned that the two production cars were heater/defroster equipped.

Yes, the L-88 and ZL-1 cars were "radio delete." One of my EE instructors in college's brother had an L-88. When he drove down the block, the TI interfered with EVERYONE's TV reception.


FYI: Here is your red ZL-1.



Note the date: Oct 1969.


Here is the "extra" white ZL-1. It was not a real ZL-1. It was an L-88 with the aluminum engine and lots of toys.



Again, note the date: July 1969.

DJ Dep

To be honest, I'm not sure if ANYONE other than the guys that bought the two
ZL-1s in the VERY BEGINNING, can accurately say what they had for equipment. We can quote government regs till we're blue in the face, but these cars were VERY special items, and the buyer back then could pretty much "custom build" their car ANY way they wanted them. Uncle Sammie may have required new cars to have heaters after a certain date, but that DIDN'T stop dealers from changing them out to no heater versions.
Governmental control was MUCH LESS then than it is now.
Without the window sticker or an eyewitness to the actual car BACK THEN, everyone is pretty much playing a guessing game. This was 1969, and back then things were still pretty wild. Dealers installed and REMOVED pretty much ANYTHING you wanted in cars as in the COPO Camaros and Nickey and Baldwin cars. I saw Nickey cars roll out the door with wrinkle wall SLICKS on them. NO tread whatsoever. Tell me THAT was legal back then!!!
Mr. Norm (Grand Spalding Dodge) used to do his "dyone tuning" in the alley behind the shop.
BAH! Legal schmegal. People ORDERED what they wanted. Money talked back then.

Dep


[Modified by Dep, 9:51 PM 10/27/2003]

rainman69

Forum Member 'Shark Food' wrote (in another post):

Just thought I'd copy it here to continue discussion. I'd get in touch with this dude. :cheers: