What's wrong with our brakes???
08-17-2004, 10:03 PM
#1
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What's wrong with our brakes???
I keep reading posts talking about upgrading our brakes and can't see the problem, at least not thousands of dollars worth.
I feel the hydraboost is the biggist improvement anyone needs, I am not talking about a company but the unit available at any wrecking yard. They are both powerful and cheap used.
That said I have 4 stainless sleeved calipers, the calipers while a little heavy do have 4 live pistons, the casting is rigid and the pistons are large for good clamping pressure.
Our rotors are 12 inches and with a good resurfacing and a little work with a dial indicator and shims can be made to run perfectly true or at least within .002.
I also replace all flex lines with stainless flex lines.
I also run the NON power master with the hydraboost from a one ton for a little extra line pressure.
I do run organic pads to save the rotors, my back 2 are original while the front were replaced back in the 70's.
The combination of hydraboost, small master and perfectly true rotors makes for brakes far more powerful then I will ever need.
Because I like holes I did drill all 4 rotors full of holes and turned the inside down to remove 3 pounds from each rotor and so far no sign of fatigue cracks and I do check all rotors yearly.
If you want a one time panic stop from any speed the organic pads work great and save the rotors but if you want repeated stops the performance friction pads work great and the 3rd panic stop from 100 mph was better then the first but my rotors took too much of a beating.
I can't see spending thousands on different calipers, even 6 piston when their area is most of the time less then our 4 1 7/8th pistons.
I was doing a bad thing last Saturday, I was playing with another guy, running at 80 to 90 down a secondary road, he was in front and I was following close waiting for a staight away, the road was quit hilly.
We went over the crest of a hill me a few car lengths behind him when he had to pull brakes really hard, a car had pulled out of the driveway over the crest, anyway he pulled brakes and I had only an instant to realize this and hit mine. All 4 wheels locked instantly and I wasn't aware that I had hit them that hard but I easily outbraked him and he had more warning. My brakes at 80 plus still had no problem with the lockup and they felt strong.
Why do I need 13 inch rotors, 1 inch more then I have now?? Why do I need better calipers???
All you need is hydraboost, the product, good stainless calipers, good flex lines and proper trued rotors.
I will keep my present brakes plus the thousands it would take for something inferior.
I never feel I need more brakes, never.
VAcuum boosters will not cut it.
I feel the hydraboost is the biggist improvement anyone needs, I am not talking about a company but the unit available at any wrecking yard. They are both powerful and cheap used.
That said I have 4 stainless sleeved calipers, the calipers while a little heavy do have 4 live pistons, the casting is rigid and the pistons are large for good clamping pressure.
Our rotors are 12 inches and with a good resurfacing and a little work with a dial indicator and shims can be made to run perfectly true or at least within .002.
I also replace all flex lines with stainless flex lines.
I also run the NON power master with the hydraboost from a one ton for a little extra line pressure.
I do run organic pads to save the rotors, my back 2 are original while the front were replaced back in the 70's.
The combination of hydraboost, small master and perfectly true rotors makes for brakes far more powerful then I will ever need.
Because I like holes I did drill all 4 rotors full of holes and turned the inside down to remove 3 pounds from each rotor and so far no sign of fatigue cracks and I do check all rotors yearly.
If you want a one time panic stop from any speed the organic pads work great and save the rotors but if you want repeated stops the performance friction pads work great and the 3rd panic stop from 100 mph was better then the first but my rotors took too much of a beating.
I can't see spending thousands on different calipers, even 6 piston when their area is most of the time less then our 4 1 7/8th pistons.
I was doing a bad thing last Saturday, I was playing with another guy, running at 80 to 90 down a secondary road, he was in front and I was following close waiting for a staight away, the road was quit hilly.
We went over the crest of a hill me a few car lengths behind him when he had to pull brakes really hard, a car had pulled out of the driveway over the crest, anyway he pulled brakes and I had only an instant to realize this and hit mine. All 4 wheels locked instantly and I wasn't aware that I had hit them that hard but I easily outbraked him and he had more warning. My brakes at 80 plus still had no problem with the lockup and they felt strong.
Why do I need 13 inch rotors, 1 inch more then I have now?? Why do I need better calipers???
All you need is hydraboost, the product, good stainless calipers, good flex lines and proper trued rotors.
I will keep my present brakes plus the thousands it would take for something inferior.
I never feel I need more brakes, never.
VAcuum boosters will not cut it.
08-17-2004, 11:12 PM
#3
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OK sounds good and I respect your knowledge.
How about doing a write up showing a step by step conversion for us slightly less knowledgeable types
I would even like to drill a few holes in my rotors since I can't find anyplace to buy them that way.
I could always use a better braking system.
Thanks.
How about doing a write up showing a step by step conversion for us slightly less knowledgeable types
I would even like to drill a few holes in my rotors since I can't find anyplace to buy them that way.
I could always use a better braking system.
Thanks.
08-17-2004, 11:50 PM
#6
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i have stock manual brakes and they work just fine. Can't imagine why anyone would need any different. But then again I don't illegally race on the street NW. 
08-18-2004, 12:11 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by norvalwilhelm
I keep reading posts talking about upgrading our brakes and can't see the problem, at least not thousands of dollars worth.
I feel the hydraboost is the biggist improvement anyone needs, I am not talking about a company but the unit available at any wrecking yard. They are both powerful and cheap used.
That said I have 4 stainless sleeved calipers, the calipers while a little heavy do have 4 live pistons, the casting is rigid and the pistons are large for good clamping pressure.
Our rotors are 12 inches and with a good resurfacing and a little work with a dial indicator and shims can be made to run perfectly true or at least within .002.
I also replace all flex lines with stainless flex lines.
I also run the NON power master with the hydraboost from a one ton for a little extra line pressure.
I do run organic pads to save the rotors, my back 2 are original while the front were replaced back in the 70's.
The combination of hydraboost, small master and perfectly true rotors makes for brakes far more powerful then I will ever need.
Because I like holes I did drill all 4 rotors full of holes and turned the inside down to remove 3 pounds from each rotor and so far no sign of fatigue cracks and I do check all rotors yearly.
If you want a one time panic stop from any speed the organic pads work great and save the rotors but if you want repeated stops the performance friction pads work great and the 3rd panic stop from 100 mph was better then the first but my rotors took too much of a beating.
I can't see spending thousands on different calipers, even 6 piston when their area is most of the time less then our 4 1 7/8th pistons.
I was doing a bad thing last Saturday, I was playing with another guy, running at 80 to 90 down a secondary road, he was in front and I was following close waiting for a staight away, the road was quit hilly.
We went over the crest of a hill me a few car lengths behind him when he had to pull brakes really hard, a car had pulled out of the driveway over the crest, anyway he pulled brakes and I had only an instant to realize this and hit mine. All 4 wheels locked instantly and I wasn't aware that I had hit them that hard but I easily outbraked him and he had more warning. My brakes at 80 plus still had no problem with the lockup and they felt strong.
Why do I need 13 inch rotors, 1 inch more then I have now?? Why do I need better calipers???
All you need is hydraboost, the product, good stainless calipers, good flex lines and proper trued rotors.
I will keep my present brakes plus the thousands it would take for something inferior.
I never feel I need more brakes, never.
VAcuum boosters will not cut it.
I feel the hydraboost is the biggist improvement anyone needs, I am not talking about a company but the unit available at any wrecking yard. They are both powerful and cheap used.
That said I have 4 stainless sleeved calipers, the calipers while a little heavy do have 4 live pistons, the casting is rigid and the pistons are large for good clamping pressure.
Our rotors are 12 inches and with a good resurfacing and a little work with a dial indicator and shims can be made to run perfectly true or at least within .002.
I also replace all flex lines with stainless flex lines.
I also run the NON power master with the hydraboost from a one ton for a little extra line pressure.
I do run organic pads to save the rotors, my back 2 are original while the front were replaced back in the 70's.
The combination of hydraboost, small master and perfectly true rotors makes for brakes far more powerful then I will ever need.
Because I like holes I did drill all 4 rotors full of holes and turned the inside down to remove 3 pounds from each rotor and so far no sign of fatigue cracks and I do check all rotors yearly.
If you want a one time panic stop from any speed the organic pads work great and save the rotors but if you want repeated stops the performance friction pads work great and the 3rd panic stop from 100 mph was better then the first but my rotors took too much of a beating.
I can't see spending thousands on different calipers, even 6 piston when their area is most of the time less then our 4 1 7/8th pistons.
I was doing a bad thing last Saturday, I was playing with another guy, running at 80 to 90 down a secondary road, he was in front and I was following close waiting for a staight away, the road was quit hilly.
We went over the crest of a hill me a few car lengths behind him when he had to pull brakes really hard, a car had pulled out of the driveway over the crest, anyway he pulled brakes and I had only an instant to realize this and hit mine. All 4 wheels locked instantly and I wasn't aware that I had hit them that hard but I easily outbraked him and he had more warning. My brakes at 80 plus still had no problem with the lockup and they felt strong.
Why do I need 13 inch rotors, 1 inch more then I have now?? Why do I need better calipers???
All you need is hydraboost, the product, good stainless calipers, good flex lines and proper trued rotors.
I will keep my present brakes plus the thousands it would take for something inferior.
I never feel I need more brakes, never.
VAcuum boosters will not cut it.
08-18-2004, 12:22 AM
#8
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St. Jude Donor '07
Originally Posted by billlambeer
hydraboost..where..when..mainly..what? Someone help me out here please!! Since i would love more braking power
I think I'll stick with my vacuum assist, more than enough pressure to lock the wheels and I'll be damned if I'm going to climb under my dash again anytime soon.
08-18-2004, 12:32 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by jdunne
norval,if you do 3 or 4 laps of auto X you will see that the brakes disappear very quickly,for normal road usethe existing brakes are just fine...john
08-18-2004, 12:35 AM
#10
Drifting
I haven't heard it put better. Blueprinting brakes and chassis is what the real fast guys do. I haven't checked rotors yet. I just installed Hydraboost, it's absoutly necessary. SS lines made a big difference too.
I do want to comment on the reduction of unsprung weight from upgraded brakes. Lightweight hubs, rotors and callipers would save #10 per wheel. I wonder how that would feel? JMHO
Rick
I do want to comment on the reduction of unsprung weight from upgraded brakes. Lightweight hubs, rotors and callipers would save #10 per wheel. I wonder how that would feel? JMHO
Rick
08-18-2004, 03:27 AM
#12
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St. Jude Donor '07
Originally Posted by 71coupe
Norval, is there a difference between manual & power master cyl's & what would be the advantage of using a manual cyl with the hydroboost?
Thanks
Thanks
The difference is bore size of the master cylinder. Power brakes don't need as large a bore because of power assist. The only reason that I can see why you would go with a manual mc on hydroboost is so you have a little more pedal travel and thus ability to precisely apply brakes.
08-18-2004, 04:03 AM
#13
The manual MC has a smaller bore. Pressure is a function of force and surface area, same force on a smaller surface -> higher pressure
The smaller the bore the more pressure that is output to the wheels.
Norval is just trying to convince himself to keep his car in 1 piece. He will be busy next winter welding through the entire frame, redoing the rear suspension with proper toe control and redoing the brakes.
..silence....
.. yoohooo Norval....
hey did you hear that? It's a set of wilwood 6 pots calling your name
The smaller the bore the more pressure that is output to the wheels.
Norval is just trying to convince himself to keep his car in 1 piece. He will be busy next winter welding through the entire frame, redoing the rear suspension with proper toe control and redoing the brakes.
..silence....
.. yoohooo Norval....
hey did you hear that? It's a set of wilwood 6 pots calling your name
08-18-2004, 06:01 AM
#15
Team Owner
Norval,, I swear, now that I"m takng the car apart for radiator support mods, maybe fab up a new one from aluminum, and moving the electric fan, mod the shroud, or make a new one from aluminum once again, and pulling the engine in order to get at the tranny for yet another 3/4 clutch pack and maybe some further mods.....guess I have to visit the junkyard....
long as all this schmaltz is coming down again, may as well do another mod, makes it go faster....well, stop faster in this case, but you get the idea....
Jeez....
GENE
long as all this schmaltz is coming down again, may as well do another mod, makes it go faster....well, stop faster in this case, but you get the idea....
Jeez....
GENE
08-18-2004, 06:05 AM
#16
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Nothing is wrong. I have ss brake lines and ss brake calipers, everything else is the way GM sold it. I can lock all 4 tires with ease. Not 2 weeks ago while cruising at 75 i had to hit the brakes to avoid hitting a deer. Locked all 4 and had lots of tire smoke, unfortunately this ended up putting flat spots on my tires. The tires now go thump, thump, thump down the road, quite noticeable at low speeds.
I'd say they work quite well for what they were intended for.
I'd say they work quite well for what they were intended for.
08-18-2004, 06:49 AM
#17
Locking the brakes is not a good way to determine stopping power, with all wheels locked you will have a much longer stopping distance. Modulation & pedal feel, that's what it is about. The ability to modulate the brakes to the point where the wheels are just from locking up, that's the point where you have the greatest deceleration. It isn't that hard to lock up the brakes, just stomping the pedal to the floor will do it
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; 08-18-2004 at 07:26 AM.
08-18-2004, 07:02 AM
#18
Race Director
I have installed the Hydroboost on mine and the difference in braking is huge. I just autoX last weekend and used the brakes more than usual. Having never done this before the hydroboost I can't compare but the brakes were fine. I imagine if I were going to road race the stock brakes would start to lose their effiency. The stock brakes were not meant to race with. For most of us here the stock brakes work very well and for the occasional fun run they work great. Like anything else for racing you will need to upgrade. I can't see spending thousands of dollars to make one or two hard stops a year. JMO.
08-18-2004, 07:29 AM
#19
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norval,if you do 3 or 4 laps of auto X you will see that the brakes disappear very quickly,for normal road usethe existing brakes are just fine...john
I know that the organic pads disappear after a few panic stops but substitute Performance friction metal pads and the brakes get stronger as they heat up. I did 3 hard panic stops from 100 mph, back to back and the 3rd stop was strong then the first. I just didn't like what it did to the rotors.
If you auto cross then just use the metalic pads, the rest of the system doesn't go away.
I know that the organic pads disappear after a few panic stops but substitute Performance friction metal pads and the brakes get stronger as they heat up. I did 3 hard panic stops from 100 mph, back to back and the 3rd stop was strong then the first. I just didn't like what it did to the rotors.
If you auto cross then just use the metalic pads, the rest of the system doesn't go away.
08-18-2004, 07:32 AM
#20
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i have stock manual brakes and they work just fine. Can't imagine why anyone would need any different. But then again I don't illegally race on the street NW.
I had manual brakes for years and while letting others test drive the car I was embarrassed by their lack of power. Sure both feet on the pedal and it will stop but NOTHING like hydraboost.
I am going to a cruise night tonight and I will break most/ who am i kiddigng? All speed limits getting there.
I had manual brakes for years and while letting others test drive the car I was embarrassed by their lack of power. Sure both feet on the pedal and it will stop but NOTHING like hydraboost.
I am going to a cruise night tonight and I will break most/ who am i kiddigng? All speed limits getting there.