whobub

. . . it starts!!! But wait!!! There's more. . . and different than normal. . . 'Apoligies in advance for length of below, but the attempt to give all possible info in a decent format.

SEARCH BACKGROUND: I've searched and seen SIMILAR threads on this topic and some great input from "JFB" and others in recent thread from "rinosaur" entitled "Turn key nothing happens", but this might be a different twist. If there is a previous thread please direct and my apologies for any duplication.

SYMPTOM SUMMARY: So yes, it starts, and the "click, click, click, start" symptom goes away if the car is warm. My first thought is a potential bad cell on battery, possibly bad connection??? That was put to rest after a full off-vehicle battery charge, allowed it to sit for a couple hours, then put it to a 50 & 75 amp "load test". Although the battery "passed", it did show signs of weakness and it WAS on its 60th month of a 60 month battery. During ONE of the successful starts, the charging system showed as okay.

Down to battery store I go and they confirmed that it was weak with their own testing equipment, and it was under-rated for the necessary CCA (cold-cranking amps) for the model of C4. Went with their advice, bought the stronger battery, SAME THING occurred after getting home to install the new battery (with the "click, click, . . . start").

ADDITIONAL SYMPTOM CROPS UGLY HEAD: Resigned to troubleshooting a possible cable issue with battery connections with the new battery, a subsequent start attempt to get charging #s while running, the starter STAYED ENGAGED WITH THE VEHICLE RUNNING!!!! Now get this. . . when I turn off the ignition (key in OFF position, key REMOVED) the STARTER STAYS ENGAGED AS IF I WAS ATTEMPTING A KEYED START!!!!

My only recourse was to disconnect the battery to shut everything down. I'm now (obviously) thinking the starter is probably fried as it ran clearly beyond the 15-second threshold of "pain", but found the cost of a new one is $160 +/-, so I'll be attempting to do bench testing of the starter and solenoid if I can find a process in the massive ServiceManual. Any input (e.g., GHD 'go here dummy' )is welcome there. . .

SOLUTION RECOMMENDATIONS REQUEST I am poised to replace the starter, BUT don't want to be one of the "let's try replacing this" type of backyard mechanic. That costs too much and I'm still looking for work!! So I'd like feedback from those forum members/experts for their input.

VEHICLE SPECIFICS: '93, C4, "VIN P" BTW--the SManual shows that there is a shim between the engine block and the starter on this vehicle. Upon removal I found no such shim, but the starter appears to be original equipment (Delco Remy part #10455709). I'll edit this post later with the pic from the SM.

Thanks in advance to all. Let me know if I left anything out for additional knowledge. I'm all ears

Jesse/WhoBuB (Who Be You Be )

ch@0s

Replace the starter.You might get by with just replacing the solenoid but i would do the whole thing. $160 is cheap insurance towing it home will cost half as much.

Railroadman

Before replacing anything more I'd remove the starter and solenoid and clean all related cables and wires. If you feel like taking it to the local parts place while you have it out, why not - it's a freebie. If they don't find an obvious problem put it back in and connect up all the newly-cleaned wires.

You have nothing to lose and MAY save the cost of a new starter.

Good synopsis of the problem and your attempts so far - let us know what you find.

ch@0s

when the started hangs you can pretty much bet the starter is the issue. I agree testing it is not a bad idea but it could test good if your problem is intermittent.

BlackbirdZ07

It was probably the starter to begin with. My '92 did the same thing... click, click, eventually it would start. There are some electrical contacts in the starter or solenoid that get dirty and worn out. I had my starter rebuilt, and no more problems.

whobub

Holy WOW!!!! What great and FAST response!!!! This forum is the most awesome!!!! "Good insurance from towing" -- excellent point!

'Looks like everyone is pointing towards the starter. I guess it's a "DUH" to me, eh???

As "Railroadman" alluded, I'll remove myself from the testing with the starter already out and take it to NAPA or Auto Zone for that test--good thinking. Sometimes I try to put myself on an island with only an internet connection to great people in a great forum -- leaving out folks that only gain from a sale are secondary and/or last resort "consultants", if you know what I mean.

I'll take the starter/solenoid device in this afternoon and see what comes. As "ch@0s" mentioned it might not show as "bad" if the problem continues to be intermittent.

Cleaning the contacts/cables, et cetera would be in order whether or not a new starter goes in. (well, rebuilt is only low-price way to go) goes in.

Railroadman

I agree that if the starter hangs "ON" it's an obvious issue. Either there is something shorted inside the solenoid or possibly a wire on the outside shorted. The fact he can shut off and remove the key and still have the starter going indicates something significant.

If it's an outside wire you'll notice it when you clean the connections. If nothing there, I agree with chaos it's a problem altho I'd vote for the solenoid before the starter itself.

And sometimes it's worth replacing both just for the peace of mind of knowing they're both done.

torchred89

Click, Click and the connection is getting hot and then making connection

whobub

Oh no Railroadman!!!! Don't make me think MORE about this!!!! The "something significant" thought that NOW comes to mind is: If I turned off the ignition switch and removed the key but the starter kept on rollin', me thinks the IgnSwitch ITSELF might be bad by NOT indicating "Off" or power. Or am I reading too much into that????

So to "torched89" 's point of ". . . connection is getting hot and then making connection". This might indicate some cable/wire resistance then???? Could be the starter may prove to be "okay" when I take it for testing, but WOULDN'T rule out this resistance in the battery cable(s)j, OR the IgnSwitch itself then. Would it?

Does anyone have a clue as to the ohms or other resistance for the positive & negative cables? This might be the problem from the get-go??? Too easy/simple maybe???

Bottom line it WAS, for years, working, working, working, working, working, then CLICK one day. So I guess while I'm violating my neighborhood's CCRs anyway having this pretty thing on 3-ton jackstands, I should check out every angle from wire-to-wire. But I only know that it (the battery cables) passes an end-to-end continuity test, but so would ANY wire that's not totally severed. An actual spec of resistance might help if anyone of you might have an educated or documented guess. This is where I wish I'd had taken the electrical engineering path in college and could figure it out with the # of strands, overall thickness, and length of the cable. But NO. . . I chose differently.

Thanks again ya'all,

Jesse

Railroadman

Jesse, don't stress about it. You have already decided to 1) clean all the wires and terminals and 2) have it tested. Don't get too far ahead of yourself - either one MAY show the problem. If not, you can decide to try more troubleshooting or just replace.

I entirely agree with the concept of knowing what your trouble is rather than randomly replacing parts. However, if you have a fairly old car (as we all do) and the starter appears to have been on there quite a while, you reach a point where you wonder how much longer a life it will have anyway. I have told on here before how - prior to a long vacation - I replaced quite a few things on my '92. I reasoned I did not know how long the old ones had been there, and I plan on keeping the car for a long time. Sooner or later, probably during my ownership, they would fail, and I didn't want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere ruining a vacation. So I "paid ahead" on some work and had a 6600 mile trouble-free trip. Maybe things would have been fine with the old parts. Maybe a new part could have failed. But they didn't.

Point of this rambling is - if you're going to have it a long time go ahead and replace starter and solenoid now and enjoy the knowledge that most likely you won't have THAT issue again for the next 15 years.

whobub

Please 'Railroadman'--DO NOT think at all it is "rambling" !!! Very valid angles of thought. I have another piece of goodness that some might want to think about when replacing parts of potential "collectors' items" that are under our control and "safe keeping". . .

Instead of having the "quick fix" and getting a rebuilt one from some flounder auto store, I've found a place that will rebuild this as its original equipment and keep the "Delco Remy" (and DENSO) original housing, and it will end up costing LESS, albeit not much less. It'll take a couple of days but worth it to me to only replace the guts of the electronics. Of course if others have a cracked housing or similar, there may be no choice, but we all know the "collectible" of this breed is to have/keep as much original equipment intact as possible.

I'm still looking (hoping) to find some #s/specs on resistance of the cables--it looks like they're $30+ for each so not money well-spent if they're okay. They don't look like any corrosion/oxidation has hit them, so I may just do with the originals if I can't find specs on testing those.

So now I AM rambling. . . back to the show and off I go to test (at one place) and if bad, take to the rebuilder of the component. My logic is to never test at the place you'll purchase as they'll of course say "Yep--it's bad. You need a new one." In the famous words of the OLD George Bush as Dana Carvey had in his skits, "Not gunna do it, not gunna do it"

Ramble off. . .

Muffin

OK, now I'll ramble. When the starter was installed was the bendix/flywheel clearance set correctly? If not the bendix can hang on the flywheel causing the starter to continue to run even with the ignition switch in the "off" position.

whobub

Hi 'Muffin',

Now that I've returned from testing the starter (see follow-up immediately below), you might be onto something.

Unfortunately I cannot confirm the clearance between the flywheel and the gear that the Bendix spring mechanism "launches" into it. I see in the SManual shows .005 clearance and GM even sells a tool for that clearance. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the SManual shows a "shim" (or shims) that should/could be in place--there were none that dropped out. My guess is that this shim assists with that alignment that you allude to. Yes???? I'll include a picture here as to what 'Muffin' speaks of.

I would like to do this, but I don't see where there is any VIEW of the gears and where they meet. Once you install the starter, it covers where the flywheel/starter meet (doesn't it?).

OFF-VEHICLE BENCH TEST:
As a follow-up to the TESTING of the starter itself: After 4 seperate tests on the bench at AutoZone, it tests as OKAY!!! I watched for myself and the Bendix spring appropriately engaged, turned "on" to simulate a 5 second start, then retracted just fine.

So now I am STUMPED and will now start checking the wires/cables for shorts or wear.

Is it what Muffin' mentions and the .005 clearance possibly aligned by the aforementioned "shim"???? How to view the flywheel-to-starter-gear to obtain the clearance????

<<<Tried to insert picture here, but not sure how to do it without an http:/ reference>>>

Any clues or comments welcome!!! On the technical issue of the 'Vette, but adding a picture to show the SM's topic on the .005 clearance too.

Keep 'em coming folks! This is excellent exchange of ideas.

Jesse

P.S. Just read RRMan's post just after this one--I've owned it for 1.5 years. See above comment on "bench test".

Railroadman

Jesse, how long have you owned the car? Also, does it appear the starter has been on there a long time, or been off fairly recently before this?

Muffin's point is valid. But if this just started doing it out of the blue even though the starter had been on there a long time, I'd guess electrical rather than mechanical. No guarantee, just a gut feeling.

rodj

Sound familiar ?
http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/densoparts.html

$27
http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/Nippondenso.html

Muffin

Railroad man has a good point. The contacts in a solenoid are prone to burn. Every rebuilt starter comes with an installation instruction sheet. Most also include a wire gauge to check bendix/flywheel clearance. An auto parts house can furnish you a set of these instructions as well as a gauge and sell you a set of shims.

MaSTeRofDZaSTeR

I hear everyone talkin about tow charges lately. Doesn't anyone else have it covered under their friggin insurance? Mines always covered unless it's completely across town, and even then I only pay a small part.

whobub

A bit off-topic MaSTeRofDZaSTeR, but you've probably never had to pay an out-of-pocket tow of $500 to $1000 before your "insurance" reimbureses you. Even "AAA" covers a predetermined short distance, THEN you're at the mercy of the chosen tow company's per-miles charges which can add up to a HUGE amount just across town, let alone across a county. 'Nough said on that though; back to where I THINK I left off. . .

The only way i can see to "see" the pinion gear and the flywheel is to drop the aluminum "cover" which is held on by what looks harmlessly by 4 small bolts. WHAT A HASSLE TO DROP THAT PUPPY!!!!! This is my wife's car and I find new ways to LOATH her choice of an automatic tranny!!!!! I'm sure the inspection cover is much easier on the manual tranny.

Good thing I'm "inspecting" this though as I now see I have broken teeth (two thus far) on the flywheel. This would indicate (to me) that there WAS some misalignment (because of no shim/s??) and/or because of the "short" that left my starter/pinion gear engaged with power off.

Have to get back before losing the rest of my daylight. I've got the starter bolted into place and ready for a test fire. More later tonight or first thing in a.m. (Pacific Time)

jesse

jfb

Multiple clicking when attempting a crank and the starter motor not disengaging when the engine runs is usually a defective starter solenoid.
When the large copper contacts in the starter that the solenoid closes at the end of its stroke to supply current to the starter motor become blackened and pitted, cause no starter motor cranking. If you keep hitting crank over and over and finally the starter cranks, this confirms bad copper contacts. A less costly way to get a good starter motor is to take it to an auto electrical shop and let them repair or rebuild the starter. Most shops do a better job than the mass rebuilders and they charge less too. Also, you can describe your symptoms to them and they will better know what to fix.
The large cable going to the starter motor has very low resistance and requires a special instrument to measure its resistance, called a 4 terminal ohmeter. You can measure the resistance yourself without this instrument by passing a known current through the cable, like 1 to 10 amps and measuring the voltage drop across the cable, end to end. Then divide the voltage you measure by the current through the cable. Usual resistance of this cable will be very low, on the order of 0.01 to 0.03 ohms or even lower. I usually connect a stoplight bulb that draws several amps and measure the current with my VOM on a large wire and then use another VOM to measure the voltage across the ends of the wire.

whobub

Well JFB, you were RIGHT ON!!! Since I had more time than money, I figured I'd tear the thing down myself and check it out, and it just so happened I started on the solenoid.

After the pointer the "rodj" sent, I saw that if THAT PLACE sells a "solenoid kit" for $27 I should be able to find the parts for less. I found it for BIG TIME less, especially since they were going to charge another $8 shipping.

Went to NAPA; they didn't have the exact part numbers over the phone but said "Just bring in the contacts and plunger and we'll match them up".

Bottom line: The two contacts were essentially SHOT and the plunger was fairly pitted. The one contact at the positive (+) side was so worn, one edge was nearly razor-sharp!!! So each "contact" (copper connection within the solenoid) cost me $3.50, the new plunger was $12, so for $19 and a 15-mile round trip to the NAPA store for my "shipping" costs, I now have the 'Vette up-and-running with now issues!!!!!!

I figured the total job cost me $22 since the car I took only gets 15 miles per gallon

I spent WAY too much time with that damn flywheel "inspection cover" though. Bad design!!! I actually had to take the left/driver side of the exhaust bracket off to get SOME clearance to get the thing out and back in--still had to tweak/bend it to boot, but feel the job should last at least as long as 50K miles or so.

I have pics of some things "along the way", but not sure how to post them here.

Thanks again JFB and the others for input. I think this is a closed topic.

Jesse