Teach me about the c4 zr1
10-13-2015, 11:03 AM
#161
Burning Brakes
Cast parts, and at best 4 bolt main.
Have you SEEN the cost just for forged pistons for an LT-5? I'm not even going to talk about the crank, and rods, JUST the pistons alone, are almost 1/2 of what it would cost to buy an entire high quality forged rotating assembly for a SBC.
Also the LS HAS done better, show me a completely stock internaled, right down to 160,000 mile rings, that has withstood 1308hp, LT5. I'll cede the point to you about Toughness on STOCK parts, then. Until then.... not so much.
Now, if something breaks in that LT-5, and it will (it's the nature of high power applications, you are going to break stuff if you use it enough. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's expected. At some point you're going to break your car.), eventually to upgrade, it's going to cost you, more than it would to just build a comparable SBC, or even LS.
Now what can a Built LS withstand?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0myH3C_bMs Well he didn't blow it up on the dyno. Now would he have, at full boost AND nitrous? Who knows? 2,000 at the tire, is more than I've ever heard of for an LT-5, certainly more than any Gen 1 engine.
THIS is what I'm talking about. If you're going to be building the car up from stock, with the LT-5 you're going to pay through the nose, for comparable results, even more so than with a SBC compared to later model engines.
What could GM do, with a modern DOHC? I think that's putting the cart before the horse at this point. The Northstar, didn't really make that great of a showing for itself. (which is a descendant of the LT-5 program) 440hp, out of the 4.0 was impressive, until you consider weight and packaging, and that it too is boosted. The same question could, and should also be applied, equally to a Big Block.
What can GM do with a modern version of the BBC? Sure there's the new LSX 454 that answers SOME of the questions...but it's not equipped with direct injection... it's not equipped with fuel injection. In many ways it too is saddled with non modern tech (as the new LT line has supplanted the LS line), still running through it's veins, even with an LSX inspired architecture we definitely know that there's plenty of power probably left on the table, if the 502, and 572 are any indications (along with damn near every other GMPP crate engine). It also is still limited by being a small block.
What would a true LSX BBC be like? It'd have different and far more ideal valve geometry for starters, which that alone would jack up the power, considerably, along with the torque, to say nothing of the simple fact that it's bigger valves in of themselves, which would ramp up the power yet again.
(and there's a reason Top Fuel, runs BB architecture rather than a DOHC one... it's because you can hit the same power metrics, as far as breathing characteristics in a BB with 2 valves instead of 4)
What ifs, in terms of R&D should be reserved for a more worthy thread.
Have you SEEN the cost just for forged pistons for an LT-5? I'm not even going to talk about the crank, and rods, JUST the pistons alone, are almost 1/2 of what it would cost to buy an entire high quality forged rotating assembly for a SBC.
Also the LS HAS done better, show me a completely stock internaled, right down to 160,000 mile rings, that has withstood 1308hp, LT5. I'll cede the point to you about Toughness on STOCK parts, then. Until then.... not so much.
Now, if something breaks in that LT-5, and it will (it's the nature of high power applications, you are going to break stuff if you use it enough. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's expected. At some point you're going to break your car.), eventually to upgrade, it's going to cost you, more than it would to just build a comparable SBC, or even LS.
Now what can a Built LS withstand?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0myH3C_bMs Well he didn't blow it up on the dyno. Now would he have, at full boost AND nitrous? Who knows? 2,000 at the tire, is more than I've ever heard of for an LT-5, certainly more than any Gen 1 engine.
THIS is what I'm talking about. If you're going to be building the car up from stock, with the LT-5 you're going to pay through the nose, for comparable results, even more so than with a SBC compared to later model engines.
What could GM do, with a modern DOHC? I think that's putting the cart before the horse at this point. The Northstar, didn't really make that great of a showing for itself. (which is a descendant of the LT-5 program) 440hp, out of the 4.0 was impressive, until you consider weight and packaging, and that it too is boosted. The same question could, and should also be applied, equally to a Big Block.
What can GM do with a modern version of the BBC? Sure there's the new LSX 454 that answers SOME of the questions...but it's not equipped with direct injection... it's not equipped with fuel injection. In many ways it too is saddled with non modern tech (as the new LT line has supplanted the LS line), still running through it's veins, even with an LSX inspired architecture we definitely know that there's plenty of power probably left on the table, if the 502, and 572 are any indications (along with damn near every other GMPP crate engine). It also is still limited by being a small block.
What would a true LSX BBC be like? It'd have different and far more ideal valve geometry for starters, which that alone would jack up the power, considerably, along with the torque, to say nothing of the simple fact that it's bigger valves in of themselves, which would ramp up the power yet again.
(and there's a reason Top Fuel, runs BB architecture rather than a DOHC one... it's because you can hit the same power metrics, as far as breathing characteristics in a BB with 2 valves instead of 4)
What ifs, in terms of R&D should be reserved for a more worthy thread.
It is hilarious how you continue to compare a 25 year old engine to GM's new flagship motor.
BTW, when I had an '85 L98 it topped out at 151 stock, less the air filter and a set of dynomax mufflers.
10-13-2015, 01:26 PM
#162
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: South-central Missouri
Posts: 6,314
Received 500 Likes
on
395 Posts
Hey, Pologreen...
If you're still following this thread...and I wouldn't blame you if you weren't...and you've got a stronger stomach than I.
So, if I may, here's my perspective from one enthusiast that has tracked automotive engineering and the issues encountered and were (or attempted) to be used to overcome issues and the competition, beginning back in 1963.
Since 1969, I've assisted (at first) and built - IDK - a dozen or so SBCs and 3 BBCs (including an L88 clone); raced and broken my share of 'em too!
My first Corvette was a beautiful 95/M6, which I traded for my Z. But, to this day, I wish I could have afforded to add the Z w/o selling the 95 to afford it. (Under the circumstances, I'd do the same again. I Just wish I had the 95 too.) Anyway....
My attraction to the Z was two-fold:
First, among C4s, it was the 'best of the best', it won and still holds the FIA speed and endurance record for a production car, blah, blah, blah.. Like others before and since, it has too many accolades to count. It suffices to say it holds a unique spot in Corvette history.
And, second, I've always been skewed toward that which is somewhat unique; not a "cookie cutter" or "me too" kind of guy. Others too understand that too, and are willing to pay for the privilege - ask any ZR-1 or GS owner!
The apex of the bell-curve for the stock C4 LT4s in the quarter is 109-110ish mph ± and about the same for the LS1 C5s (exceptions do exist, of course, but again...the apex of the (statistical) bell-curve)
My first ever (sanctioned) drag race in the Z touched 113.x mph at 13.1 ED w/a .7 sec reaction time. The base C5 I ran against ran a 109.x mph, but not before the Z reeled him in after the 1/8th and beat him to the finish.
I ran 2 other base C5s that day and always caught them (my driving sucks!) The "hook" was set!
After consulting with other ZR-1ers with modified LT5s, I put my porting skills to work, and with the help of Pete Polatsidis and Bob Gillig who phased both (stock) intake and exhaust cams, and Marc Haibeck doing the post-build dyno tuning, it went from 327 rwhp stock to 432 rwhp (in the video). It has no tell-tale lumpy idle, retains the nikasil liners and stock bottom end (reliability); purrs like a kitten in traffic around town, and screams like a banshee when provoked!
It's only natural to want to keep competition at bay. And, if drag racing was my sole mission in life, I wouldn't be phuchin' with a C4 or the LT5 either, and my car would ride to/from the track on a trailer too.
The point is, I accept the fact that someone will always be faster. So, I'll be content knowing I own and icon of the history of Corvettes, be mostly unappreciated by the ignorant hordes; being a wolf in sheep's clothing.. at least until someone "pokes a stick" at her, and the BEAST in her comes out. (Nothing like a 50 mph 5-2 downshift and standing on it to 90 mph...to wipe the smirk off the faces of doubters!
)
There is sooo much irrelevant bravado and flagrant, unfounded miss-information in this thread (now as intertwined as the Gordian Knot) as to make most of the thread anything but helpful, leave-alone accurate.
With the LT5 and FX3 suspension and interior appointments, the ZR-1 rides and drives and responds with quick and nimble aplomb. And, for a time set the pace on the world GT scene. But, technology moves on. There are more practical ways of match it. But you'll have to chose between what the ZR-1 is/was to Corvette history, even with some modifications, or something else, perhaps faster, but less iconic. To each his own.
I'll keep my ZR-1. And, as for the rest...they can try to keep up - some will and have beat me, but they better bring their "A" game!
.
If you're still following this thread...and I wouldn't blame you if you weren't...and you've got a stronger stomach than I.
So, if I may, here's my perspective from one enthusiast that has tracked automotive engineering and the issues encountered and were (or attempted) to be used to overcome issues and the competition, beginning back in 1963.
Since 1969, I've assisted (at first) and built - IDK - a dozen or so SBCs and 3 BBCs (including an L88 clone); raced and broken my share of 'em too!
My first Corvette was a beautiful 95/M6, which I traded for my Z. But, to this day, I wish I could have afforded to add the Z w/o selling the 95 to afford it. (Under the circumstances, I'd do the same again. I Just wish I had the 95 too.) Anyway....
My attraction to the Z was two-fold:
First, among C4s, it was the 'best of the best', it won and still holds the FIA speed and endurance record for a production car, blah, blah, blah.. Like others before and since, it has too many accolades to count. It suffices to say it holds a unique spot in Corvette history.
And, second, I've always been skewed toward that which is somewhat unique; not a "cookie cutter" or "me too" kind of guy. Others too understand that too, and are willing to pay for the privilege - ask any ZR-1 or GS owner!
The apex of the bell-curve for the stock C4 LT4s in the quarter is 109-110ish mph ± and about the same for the LS1 C5s (exceptions do exist, of course, but again...the apex of the (statistical) bell-curve)
My first ever (sanctioned) drag race in the Z touched 113.x mph at 13.1 ED w/a .7 sec reaction time. The base C5 I ran against ran a 109.x mph, but not before the Z reeled him in after the 1/8th and beat him to the finish.
I ran 2 other base C5s that day and always caught them (my driving sucks!) The "hook" was set!
After consulting with other ZR-1ers with modified LT5s, I put my porting skills to work, and with the help of Pete Polatsidis and Bob Gillig who phased both (stock) intake and exhaust cams, and Marc Haibeck doing the post-build dyno tuning, it went from 327 rwhp stock to 432 rwhp (in the video). It has no tell-tale lumpy idle, retains the nikasil liners and stock bottom end (reliability); purrs like a kitten in traffic around town, and screams like a banshee when provoked!
It's only natural to want to keep competition at bay. And, if drag racing was my sole mission in life, I wouldn't be phuchin' with a C4 or the LT5 either, and my car would ride to/from the track on a trailer too.
The point is, I accept the fact that someone will always be faster. So, I'll be content knowing I own and icon of the history of Corvettes, be mostly unappreciated by the ignorant hordes; being a wolf in sheep's clothing.. at least until someone "pokes a stick" at her, and the BEAST in her comes out. (Nothing like a 50 mph 5-2 downshift and standing on it to 90 mph...to wipe the smirk off the faces of doubters!
)There is sooo much irrelevant bravado and flagrant, unfounded miss-information in this thread (now as intertwined as the Gordian Knot) as to make most of the thread anything but helpful, leave-alone accurate.
With the LT5 and FX3 suspension and interior appointments, the ZR-1 rides and drives and responds with quick and nimble aplomb. And, for a time set the pace on the world GT scene. But, technology moves on. There are more practical ways of match it. But you'll have to chose between what the ZR-1 is/was to Corvette history, even with some modifications, or something else, perhaps faster, but less iconic. To each his own.
I'll keep my ZR-1. And, as for the rest...they can try to keep up - some will and have beat me, but they better bring their "A" game!
.
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Agpilot1 (10-13-2015)
10-13-2015, 02:03 PM
#163
Melting Slicks
New pistons, head gasket, and exhaust only. Oh and the computer is reprogrammed. Everything else is stock! I believe this makes over 1000hp.
It is hilarious how you continue to compare a 25 year old engine to GM's new flagship motor.
BTW, when I had an '85 L98 it topped out at 151 stock, less the air filter and a set of dynomax mufflers.
It is hilarious how you continue to compare a 25 year old engine to GM's new flagship motor.
BTW, when I had an '85 L98 it topped out at 151 stock, less the air filter and a set of dynomax mufflers.
You do realize the LS series is Finished right? It too is phased out for a new breed of engines. The LS line started in 1998. The LS1/LS6 went out of style 11 years ago, and the LS1s are STILL comparable in output to an LT-5. ...out of the box no less.
You're the one that is claiming it's the best engine ever. Best Ever, means that, Ever.
And if we were to compare it to BBCs, it's blown out of the water again...
So Past, Present of it's time, and Future, it is not the pinnacle of engine development in all out power production and STILL costs far more to build.
It wasn't even the fastest of the C4s in the era it was produced. It had an endurance record, and a whole ton more weight saddled with the car.
New pistons, is still new pistons. It's not producing 1308, on a 160,000 mile engine, using a completely stock rotating assembly.
The 85, is hardly the top dog of L98s. My 89 made 15 more horsepower out of the box, and dynomax mufflers, are a Feel Good mod...they aren't an actual performance mod.
Some guys have gotten 89s to 154. I was running out of usable real estate at 153, so I'll gladly cede 1mph.
10-13-2015, 02:08 PM
#164
Pro
Nicely put Paul. I feel the same way.
Hey, Pologreen...
If you're still following this thread...and I wouldn't blame you if you weren't...and you've got a stronger stomach than I.
So, if I may, here's my perspective from one enthusiast that has tracked automotive engineering and the issues encountered and were (or attempted) to be used to overcome issues and the competition, beginning back in 1963.
Since 1969, I've assisted (at first) and built - IDK - a dozen or so SBCs and 3 BBCs (including an L88 clone); raced and broken my share of 'em too!
My first Corvette was a beautiful 95/M6, which I traded for my Z. But, to this day, I wish I could have afforded to add the Z w/o selling the 95 to afford it. (Under the circumstances, I'd do the same again. I Just wish I had the 95 too.) Anyway....
My attraction to the Z was two-fold:
First, among C4s, it was the 'best of the best', it won and still holds the FIA speed and endurance record for a production car, blah, blah, blah.. Like others before and since, it has too many accolades to count. It suffices to say it holds a unique spot in Corvette history.
And, second, I've always been skewed toward that which is somewhat unique; not a "cookie cutter" or "me too" kind of guy. Others too understand that too, and are willing to pay for the privilege - ask any ZR-1 or GS owner!
The apex of the bell-curve for the stock C4 LT4s in the quarter is 109-110ish mph ± and about the same for the LS1 C5s (exceptions do exist, of course, but again...the apex of the (statistical) bell-curve)
My first ever (sanctioned) drag race in the Z touched 113.x mph at 13.1 ED w/a .7 sec reaction time. The base C5 I ran against ran a 109.x mph, but not before the Z reeled him in after the 1/8th and beat him to the finish.
I ran 2 other base C5s that day and always caught them (my driving sucks!) The "hook" was set!
After consulting with other ZR-1ers with modified LT5s, I put my porting skills to work, and with the help of Pete Polatsidis and Bob Gillig who phased both (stock) intake and exhaust cams, and Marc Haibeck doing the post-build dyno tuning, it went from 327 rwhp stock to 432 rwhp (in the video). It has no tell-tale lumpy idle, retains the nikasil liners and stock bottom end (reliability); purrs like a kitten in traffic around town, and screams like a banshee when provoked!
It's only natural to want to keep competition at bay. And, if drag racing was my sole mission in life, I wouldn't be phuchin' with a C4 or the LT5 either, and my car would ride to/from the track on a trailer too.
The point is, I accept the fact that someone will always be faster. So, I'll be content knowing I own and icon of the history of Corvettes, be mostly unappreciated by the ignorant hordes; being a wolf in sheep's clothing.. at least until someone "pokes a stick" at her, and the BEAST in her comes out. (Nothing like a 50 mph 5-2 downshift and standing on it to 90 mph...to wipe the smirk off the faces of doubters!)
There is sooo much irrelevant bravado and flagrant, unfounded miss-information in this thread (now as intertwined as the Gordian Knot) as to make most of the thread anything but helpful, leave-alone accurate.
With the LT5 and FX3 suspension and interior appointments, the ZR-1 rides and drives and responds with quick and nimble aplomb. And, for a time set the pace on the world GT scene. But, technology moves on. There are more practical ways of match it. But you'll have to chose between what the ZR-1 is/was to Corvette history, even with some modifications, or something else, perhaps faster, but less iconic. To each his own.
I'll keep my ZR-1. And, as for the rest...they can try to keep up - some will and have beat me, but they better bring their "A" game!.
If you're still following this thread...and I wouldn't blame you if you weren't...and you've got a stronger stomach than I.
So, if I may, here's my perspective from one enthusiast that has tracked automotive engineering and the issues encountered and were (or attempted) to be used to overcome issues and the competition, beginning back in 1963.
Since 1969, I've assisted (at first) and built - IDK - a dozen or so SBCs and 3 BBCs (including an L88 clone); raced and broken my share of 'em too!
My first Corvette was a beautiful 95/M6, which I traded for my Z. But, to this day, I wish I could have afforded to add the Z w/o selling the 95 to afford it. (Under the circumstances, I'd do the same again. I Just wish I had the 95 too.) Anyway....
My attraction to the Z was two-fold:
First, among C4s, it was the 'best of the best', it won and still holds the FIA speed and endurance record for a production car, blah, blah, blah.. Like others before and since, it has too many accolades to count. It suffices to say it holds a unique spot in Corvette history.
And, second, I've always been skewed toward that which is somewhat unique; not a "cookie cutter" or "me too" kind of guy. Others too understand that too, and are willing to pay for the privilege - ask any ZR-1 or GS owner!
The apex of the bell-curve for the stock C4 LT4s in the quarter is 109-110ish mph ± and about the same for the LS1 C5s (exceptions do exist, of course, but again...the apex of the (statistical) bell-curve)
My first ever (sanctioned) drag race in the Z touched 113.x mph at 13.1 ED w/a .7 sec reaction time. The base C5 I ran against ran a 109.x mph, but not before the Z reeled him in after the 1/8th and beat him to the finish.
I ran 2 other base C5s that day and always caught them (my driving sucks!) The "hook" was set!
After consulting with other ZR-1ers with modified LT5s, I put my porting skills to work, and with the help of Pete Polatsidis and Bob Gillig who phased both (stock) intake and exhaust cams, and Marc Haibeck doing the post-build dyno tuning, it went from 327 rwhp stock to 432 rwhp (in the video). It has no tell-tale lumpy idle, retains the nikasil liners and stock bottom end (reliability); purrs like a kitten in traffic around town, and screams like a banshee when provoked!
It's only natural to want to keep competition at bay. And, if drag racing was my sole mission in life, I wouldn't be phuchin' with a C4 or the LT5 either, and my car would ride to/from the track on a trailer too.
The point is, I accept the fact that someone will always be faster. So, I'll be content knowing I own and icon of the history of Corvettes, be mostly unappreciated by the ignorant hordes; being a wolf in sheep's clothing.. at least until someone "pokes a stick" at her, and the BEAST in her comes out. (Nothing like a 50 mph 5-2 downshift and standing on it to 90 mph...to wipe the smirk off the faces of doubters!
)There is sooo much irrelevant bravado and flagrant, unfounded miss-information in this thread (now as intertwined as the Gordian Knot) as to make most of the thread anything but helpful, leave-alone accurate.
With the LT5 and FX3 suspension and interior appointments, the ZR-1 rides and drives and responds with quick and nimble aplomb. And, for a time set the pace on the world GT scene. But, technology moves on. There are more practical ways of match it. But you'll have to chose between what the ZR-1 is/was to Corvette history, even with some modifications, or something else, perhaps faster, but less iconic. To each his own.
I'll keep my ZR-1. And, as for the rest...they can try to keep up - some will and have beat me, but they better bring their "A" game!
.
10-13-2015, 02:11 PM
#165
Former Vendor
Member Since: May 2001
Location: Callaway Cars - Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posts: 6,125
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FWIW, I saw on my then new, 1989 coupe, 154 mph (headlights up), as indicated on the speedometer. Car had probably 3k miles at that time.
Presently, I am usually driving a 2010 Callaway SC606. It has 213,000 miles on it, never any mechanical issues, period. Powerfully Engineered, indeed.
10-13-2015, 06:42 PM
#166
Burning Brakes
25 year old engine to GM's newest? You do realize, the LS7 is a 10 year old engine that it's being compared to.
You do realize the LS series is Finished right? It too is phased out for a new breed of engines. The LS line started in 1998. The LS1/LS6 went out of style 11 years ago, and the LS1s are STILL comparable in output to an LT-5. ...out of the box no less.
You're the one that is claiming it's the best engine ever. Best Ever, means that, Ever.
And if we were to compare it to BBCs, it's blown out of the water again...
So Past, Present of it's time, and Future, it is not the pinnacle of engine development in all out power production and STILL costs far more to build.
It wasn't even the fastest of the C4s in the era it was produced. It had an endurance record, and a whole ton more weight saddled with the car.
New pistons, is still new pistons. It's not producing 1308, on a 160,000 mile engine, using a completely stock rotating assembly.
The 85, is hardly the top dog of L98s. My 89 made 15 more horsepower out of the box, and dynomax mufflers, are a Feel Good mod...they aren't an actual performance mod.
Some guys have gotten 89s to 154. I was running out of usable real estate at 153, so I'll gladly cede 1mph.
You do realize the LS series is Finished right? It too is phased out for a new breed of engines. The LS line started in 1998. The LS1/LS6 went out of style 11 years ago, and the LS1s are STILL comparable in output to an LT-5. ...out of the box no less.
You're the one that is claiming it's the best engine ever. Best Ever, means that, Ever.
And if we were to compare it to BBCs, it's blown out of the water again...
So Past, Present of it's time, and Future, it is not the pinnacle of engine development in all out power production and STILL costs far more to build.
It wasn't even the fastest of the C4s in the era it was produced. It had an endurance record, and a whole ton more weight saddled with the car.
New pistons, is still new pistons. It's not producing 1308, on a 160,000 mile engine, using a completely stock rotating assembly.
The 85, is hardly the top dog of L98s. My 89 made 15 more horsepower out of the box, and dynomax mufflers, are a Feel Good mod...they aren't an actual performance mod.
Some guys have gotten 89s to 154. I was running out of usable real estate at 153, so I'll gladly cede 1mph.
And let me admit that I am most likely wrong about lots of stuff regarding the new LSX engines since I do not keep up with them.
Guess what? I don't care since I do not talk much about them.
But the fact is the design started over in 1997 and has evolved into what is in today's GM cars.
Please quote me saying that the LT-5 was the best engine ever built. I never said that. What I did say is the LT-5 was the best engine GM ever put into a 4th generation corvette and that is a fact.
Just accept facts and life will be easier for you!
The callaway was faster in top speed but that's it. Maybe the 1/4 mile depending on who's driving.
They were NOT known for their reliability when pushed hard on a regular basis.
And out of respect to Callaway, who knows way more than me about cars, I do not want to turn this into a ZR-1 vs Callaway TT thread.
Guess you missed my point when I mentioned my L98 going 151.
15 more hp?
Great!
The original point of this thread was to teach and inform people about the LT-5.
Seems like you, Tom, JrRifleCoach, and a few others do not like what I call "stock" and think the ZR-1 is a fat useless car that will get blown away by just about anything out there.
Guess what, the car was last made in 1995. That was 20 years ago and it still can hold it's own.
End of the day the only thing I believe you have said that makes any sense is the best C4 out there is what anyone owns and decides to make theirs.
Just accept the fact the ZR-1 is the best C4 Corvette GM made and lets move on.
We all know the new LSX or whatever they are called can make 1000+ hp all day with boost and such.
Well I would hope so. It's called advances in technology and progress.
Last edited by pushrod-v8; 10-13-2015 at 06:58 PM.
10-13-2015, 06:48 PM
#168
Burning Brakes
First, among C4s, it was the 'best of the best', it won and still holds the FIA speed and endurance record for a production car, blah, blah, blah.. Like others before and since, it has too many accolades to count. It suffices to say it holds a unique spot in Corvette history.
And, second, I've always been skewed toward that which is somewhat unique; not a "cookie cutter" or "me too" kind of guy. Others too understand that too, and are willing to pay for the privilege - ask any ZR-1 or GS owner!
The point is, I accept the fact that someone will always be faster. So, I'll be content knowing I own and icon of the history of Corvettes, be mostly unappreciated by the ignorant hordes
Well said Paul!
If I wanted the fastest car I could afford I sure as hell would not be driving a 4th gen ZR-1 corvette!
The UPS driver outside of my job saw me walk to my Z about 2 months ago and he yells to me "hey, isn't that the one with 2 keys?" I said "yes it is you know you cars I see" and the UPS driver says "yes that car is bad ***. I see it parked there all the time. I can't want to get one myself"
Nothing like owning a 4th gen Z.
10-13-2015, 06:57 PM
#169
Burning Brakes
10-14-2015, 12:45 AM
#170
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
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St. Jude '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-‘19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
10-14-2015, 12:56 AM
#171
Burning Brakes
No need to worry Jr.
Everything will be ok!
Clearly you have a problem and maybe you should seeks some professional help.
10-14-2015, 08:25 AM
#173
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: South-central Missouri
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The new GM motors are still based of the basic design of the LS engine that came out in 1997. Cam shaft raised higher in the block, evenly spaced cathedral style intake and exhaust ports, etc.
And let me admit that I am most likely wrong about lots of stuff regarding the new LSX engines since I do not keep up with them.
Guess what? I don't care since I do not talk much about them.
But the fact is the design started over in 1997 and has evolved into what is in today's GM cars.
Please quote me saying that the LT-5 was the best engine ever built. I never said that. What I did say is the LT-5 was the best engine GM ever put into a 4th generation corvette and that is a fact.
Just accept facts and life will be easier for you!
The callaway was faster in top speed but that's it. Maybe the 1/4 mile depending on who's driving.
They were NOT known for their reliability when pushed hard on a regular basis.
And out of respect to Callaway, who knows way more than me about cars, I do not want to turn this into a ZR-1 vs Callaway TT thread.
Guess you missed my point when I mentioned my L98 going 151.
15 more hp?
Great!
The original point of this thread was to teach and inform people about the LT-5.
Seems like you, Tom, JrRifleCoach, and a few others do not like what I call "stock" and think the ZR-1 is a fat useless car that will get blown away by just about anything out there.
Guess what, the car was last made in 1995. That was 20 years ago and it still can hold it's own.
End of the day the only thing I believe you have said that makes any sense is the best C4 out there is what anyone owns and decides to make theirs.
Just accept the fact the ZR-1 is the best C4 Corvette GM made and lets move on.
We all know the new LSX or whatever they are called can make 1000+ hp all day with boost and such.
Well I would hope so. It's called advances in technology and progress.
And let me admit that I am most likely wrong about lots of stuff regarding the new LSX engines since I do not keep up with them.
Guess what? I don't care since I do not talk much about them.
But the fact is the design started over in 1997 and has evolved into what is in today's GM cars.
Please quote me saying that the LT-5 was the best engine ever built. I never said that. What I did say is the LT-5 was the best engine GM ever put into a 4th generation corvette and that is a fact.
Just accept facts and life will be easier for you!
The callaway was faster in top speed but that's it. Maybe the 1/4 mile depending on who's driving.
They were NOT known for their reliability when pushed hard on a regular basis.
And out of respect to Callaway, who knows way more than me about cars, I do not want to turn this into a ZR-1 vs Callaway TT thread.
Guess you missed my point when I mentioned my L98 going 151.
15 more hp?
Great!
The original point of this thread was to teach and inform people about the LT-5.
Seems like you, Tom, JrRifleCoach, and a few others do not like what I call "stock" and think the ZR-1 is a fat useless car that will get blown away by just about anything out there.
Guess what, the car was last made in 1995. That was 20 years ago and it still can hold it's own.
End of the day the only thing I believe you have said that makes any sense is the best C4 out there is what anyone owns and decides to make theirs.
Just accept the fact the ZR-1 is the best C4 Corvette GM made and lets move on.
We all know the new LSX or whatever they are called can make 1000+ hp all day with boost and such.
Well I would hope so. It's called advances in technology and progress.
We all appreciate his undying discipline when it comes to the literal definition of the language, no matter what the discussion topic is. I appreciate his points of view, as he maintains an objective tenor and never resorts to breathless hyperbole or ALL CAPS as a strategy to win a debate at any cost and truth be damned.
Last edited by Paul Workman; 10-14-2015 at 08:31 AM.
10-14-2015, 08:39 AM
#174
Race Director
Member Since: Feb 2002
Location: Compound in the Grove, Ga.
Posts: 11,325
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2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2019 C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods)
2018 C4 of Year Finalist
2015 C4 of the Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '16
2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
This is getting so old... I hate it for the original poster but you guys have turned his (Pologreen) post into a 
The following 2 users liked this post by FASTAZU:
JrRifleCoach (10-14-2015),
SurfnSun (10-14-2015)
10-14-2015, 11:07 AM
#175
Melting Slicks
The new GM motors are still based of the basic design of the LS engine that came out in 1997. Cam shaft raised higher in the block, evenly spaced cathedral style intake and exhaust ports, etc.
And let me admit that I am most likely wrong about lots of stuff regarding the new LSX engines since I do not keep up with them.
Guess what? I don't care since I do not talk much about them.
But the fact is the design started over in 1997 and has evolved into what is in today's GM cars.
Please quote me saying that the LT-5 was the best engine ever built. I never said that. What I did say is the LT-5 was the best engine GM ever put into a 4th generation corvette and that is a fact.
Just accept facts and life will be easier for you!
The callaway was faster in top speed but that's it. Maybe the 1/4 mile depending on who's driving.
They were NOT known for their reliability when pushed hard on a regular basis.
And out of respect to Callaway, who knows way more than me about cars, I do not want to turn this into a ZR-1 vs Callaway TT thread.
Guess you missed my point when I mentioned my L98 going 151.
15 more hp?
Great!
The original point of this thread was to teach and inform people about the LT-5.
Seems like you, Tom, JrRifleCoach, and a few others do not like what I call "stock" and think the ZR-1 is a fat useless car that will get blown away by just about anything out there.
Guess what, the car was last made in 1995. That was 20 years ago and it still can hold it's own.
End of the day the only thing I believe you have said that makes any sense is the best C4 out there is what anyone owns and decides to make theirs.
Just accept the fact the ZR-1 is the best C4 Corvette GM made and lets move on.
We all know the new LSX or whatever they are called can make 1000+ hp all day with boost and such.
Well I would hope so. It's called advances in technology and progress.
And let me admit that I am most likely wrong about lots of stuff regarding the new LSX engines since I do not keep up with them.
Guess what? I don't care since I do not talk much about them.
But the fact is the design started over in 1997 and has evolved into what is in today's GM cars.
Please quote me saying that the LT-5 was the best engine ever built. I never said that. What I did say is the LT-5 was the best engine GM ever put into a 4th generation corvette and that is a fact.
Just accept facts and life will be easier for you!
The callaway was faster in top speed but that's it. Maybe the 1/4 mile depending on who's driving.
They were NOT known for their reliability when pushed hard on a regular basis.
And out of respect to Callaway, who knows way more than me about cars, I do not want to turn this into a ZR-1 vs Callaway TT thread.
Guess you missed my point when I mentioned my L98 going 151.
15 more hp?
Great!
The original point of this thread was to teach and inform people about the LT-5.
Seems like you, Tom, JrRifleCoach, and a few others do not like what I call "stock" and think the ZR-1 is a fat useless car that will get blown away by just about anything out there.
Guess what, the car was last made in 1995. That was 20 years ago and it still can hold it's own.
End of the day the only thing I believe you have said that makes any sense is the best C4 out there is what anyone owns and decides to make theirs.
Just accept the fact the ZR-1 is the best C4 Corvette GM made and lets move on.
We all know the new LSX or whatever they are called can make 1000+ hp all day with boost and such.
Well I would hope so. It's called advances in technology and progress.
Because there are a million different ways to build one and go fast, and still be reliable, for anywhere from a little, to a high end investment.
The Callaway should take the ZR everytime in the 1/4 with equal drivers. Same power, More Torque, Less Weight. Unless the Callaway, boils the tires off due to the 500+ lb ft of torque it produces, it'll run away with it.
Your use of Stock, is completely a false one. It's not how the car came from the dealer. That is Stock.
NCRS by the way agrees with mine, JR, and Tom's definition of what Stock Means. So does, the EPA, and CARB for that matter.
I could use your definition of Stock, to describe my 400 cubic inch, supercharged beast, because they're all parts that came out of a box! And they're less Modified, than your parts are, using your own definition.
There's NO shame in having a Modified Car. Modified, is cooler by leaps and bounds than any Stock Car in my book. But you shouldn't try to tell yourself that you are "still stock" because you're about as Stock, as a guy that bolted out of the box parts together.
I think we both agree, that my C4 isn't Stock. NCRS, certainly wouldn't think it is. They definitely wouldn't think a ported to the max, LT-5 isn't Stock either, and you'd lose points at any stock showing class for it.
The Best C4, is any with an SBC under the hood. The L98s have the best racing pedigree, Period of any C4. Not only that, but frankly they've got the right engine in them to modify.
The following users liked this post:
JrRifleCoach (10-14-2015)
10-19-2015, 04:12 PM
#177
Burning Brakes
10-20-2015, 12:28 AM
#178
Melting Slicks
To say nothing of the sheer endless aftermarket support.
Here's some people that completely agree with the assessment that the SBC is the greatest or among the greatest engines of all time...and the LT-5 isn't.
http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/0...let-gen-1-350/
http://www.hotrod.com/features/hrdp-...s-of-all-time/
http://www.petrolicious.com/these-ar...st-classic-v8s
Over 100,000,000 SBCs made. I think that speaks for itself, as to it's Pedigree.
The SBC is vastly easier to service than an LT-5, it's lighter, more compact, with a lower center of gravity, it has the weight of the entire industry's aftermarket behind it, virtually.
For me the ultimate engine in the C4, is the one you can go to virtually any parts store in the country, and get the parts you need to fix it, with at most waiting a couple of days to get the part in. It's the one that worst case you can replace for a few hundred dollars in it's entirety and get right back on the road, and build to your taste because there's actually an aftermarket for it.
Last edited by MavsAK; 10-20-2015 at 12:30 AM.
10-20-2015, 10:19 AM
#179
Safety Car
I think it would be more accurate to say the SBC was more successful rather than 'better'.
The most sold car ever is the Toyota Corolla which surpassed the VW beetle I believe. Successful business case yes, but 'best' car?
The most sold car ever is the Toyota Corolla which surpassed the VW beetle I believe. Successful business case yes, but 'best' car?
10-20-2015, 12:42 PM
#180
It won every race for 3 (85 all the way through 87 until the car was BANNED because no one could keep up) years straight in SCCA and Escort. 8/10 of the top ten cars were usually L98 cars. That alone, speaks for itself. It has an Actual Racing Pedigree, the LT-5 doesn't. It has an endurance record that no one cared to break. (Again the previous record before the LT-5 took it was LESS than 100mph.. do you really think an L98 with it's low revs and 150+ mph capable speeds couldn't have bettered 100 mph?) Racing Pedigree counts more to me than an "endurance record" that no one in the industry really cares about.
As for racing efforts, Chevrolet was deeply involved with supporting the SCCA efforts in the late 80s as a way to validate the C4 platform. By the time the 90s rolled around, Chevrolet efforts went elsewhere - much like when Chevrolet pulled out of racing in the mid 60s. It is NOT that the ZR-1 didn't win races - it just wasn't what GM engineering wanted to demonstrate with the car. In the later 90s, GM jumped into the endurance circuit with the C5 patform as a way to validate that effort and as a way to compete against other high dollar marks. The later C5 and through the C6 generation became much about the Nurburgring. These efforts come in phases and should not be used to point fingers at the respective generations (or sub-generations). But you will likely find an inane argument to counter this.