I want to "Ask Tadge"...but would like some input
10-29-2015, 09:28 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
this is what the engineer at BeCool told me when I was working O'heat issues with my new engine:
The coolant needs to stay in the block long enough to absorb the heat and in the radiator long enough to release it. Street 'lore' is that the solution is a high flow WP, which he specifically denied is true.
Further, he said the proper flow is determined by a right-sized orifice, specifically the thermostat, recommending different sized 'washers' to size. My solution was a Robert Shaw thermostat that flowed more than a Stant, whereupon I figured I'd wasted many $ on aftermarket radiator and pump.
(At least my fan is stock.)
The coolant needs to stay in the block long enough to absorb the heat and in the radiator long enough to release it. Street 'lore' is that the solution is a high flow WP, which he specifically denied is true.
Further, he said the proper flow is determined by a right-sized orifice, specifically the thermostat, recommending different sized 'washers' to size. My solution was a Robert Shaw thermostat that flowed more than a Stant, whereupon I figured I'd wasted many $ on aftermarket radiator and pump.
(At least my fan is stock.)
Last edited by whalepirot; 10-29-2015 at 09:28 PM.
10-29-2015, 11:10 PM
#22
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Thread Starter
Yeah...that guy was wrong.
11-02-2015, 11:10 AM
#23
Melting Slicks
Okay, I expected that, from prior threads, but his expert advise ended a longstanding problem the car had, costing plenty, to no avail.
Must have been 'luck' that a simple thermostat change, to a different brand of the same temperature magically fixed what a new WP, radiator and various coolants could not.
Must have been 'luck' that a simple thermostat change, to a different brand of the same temperature magically fixed what a new WP, radiator and various coolants could not.
Last edited by whalepirot; 11-03-2015 at 12:12 AM.
11-02-2015, 11:27 AM
#24
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Thread Starter
Maybe I don't understand the story;
First, you said that The coolant needs to stay in the block long enough to absorb the heat and in the radiator long enough to release it. Street 'lore' is that the solution is a high flow WP, which he specifically denied is true.
^Those two sentences are totally conflicted, the way I read them. The first sentence leads me to believe that this engineer advocates for "slowing down" the flow of water in the cooling system. Then Lore says a high flow pump? That would speed up the flow...but I've always heard the lore that you need to "slow down the water to give it time to cool"...then last, the engineer denies that you need a high flow pump? I'm having a hard time following that train of though very well.
But...then you said that My solution was a Robert Shaw thermostat that flowed more than a Stant,
^That implies that you sped up the circulation of the water w/your high flow stat, and solved a temp problem. Am I missing something in this story??
Bottom line; if the radiator can not shed heat from the water fast enough, you need a larger capacity radiator. Slowing down the water in order to "shed more heat" will only increase the temp of the "slowed down water" that is in the block, increasing the temp of the block heads and oil at the same time.
First, you said that The coolant needs to stay in the block long enough to absorb the heat and in the radiator long enough to release it. Street 'lore' is that the solution is a high flow WP, which he specifically denied is true.
^Those two sentences are totally conflicted, the way I read them. The first sentence leads me to believe that this engineer advocates for "slowing down" the flow of water in the cooling system. Then Lore says a high flow pump? That would speed up the flow...but I've always heard the lore that you need to "slow down the water to give it time to cool"...then last, the engineer denies that you need a high flow pump? I'm having a hard time following that train of though very well.
But...then you said that My solution was a Robert Shaw thermostat that flowed more than a Stant,
^That implies that you sped up the circulation of the water w/your high flow stat, and solved a temp problem. Am I missing something in this story??
Bottom line; if the radiator can not shed heat from the water fast enough, you need a larger capacity radiator. Slowing down the water in order to "shed more heat" will only increase the temp of the "slowed down water" that is in the block, increasing the temp of the block heads and oil at the same time.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 11-02-2015 at 11:33 AM.
11-02-2015, 06:15 PM
#25
Melting Slicks
Also it's worth noting, that thermostats aren't an exact science. No seriously, even two rated thermostats of the SAME brand will begin opening at different temperatures, pretty often.
Let alone when you start talking about different brands with different features.
Of course the thermostat isn't the only part of the cooling system. And the ONLY thing the thermostat controls assuming it's functioning and isn't stuck shut, is the MINIMUM operating temperature of the coolant. NOT the maximum. The Maximum, is a combination of efficiency of the cooling passages themselves in the block, heads, and whether or not the Radiator is adequate for the car's cooling needs. THAT is what combats heat.
On a cold winter's day, what thermostat you run changes your max operating temps, because it's Freakin Cold out side, and thus your RADIATOR is cooling more effectively. In summer months, once the car is up to operating temperature, assuming the RADIATOR, cooling passages and waterpump (enough flow to efficiently circulate through the engine... ie not too little flow) is what is doing all the heat rejecting.
When it's 100 degrees outside, unless you have an especially capable radiator, your Thermostat, is probably going to stay open full time, and the car will probably be at 185 to 195 degrees, at sustained speeds above 45 mph. Obviously, the longer the car sits in traffic the longer it will take of sustained driving for the cooling system to bring temps back down.
Flow restriction unless it's so restricted that it literally can't make it back to the radiator, has nothing to do with how effective your cooling is, what so ever. Now if you have blocked passages (due to crud build up) or a stuck thermostat that's different, as it's holding the coolant back from making it back to the radiator.
Let alone when you start talking about different brands with different features.
Of course the thermostat isn't the only part of the cooling system. And the ONLY thing the thermostat controls assuming it's functioning and isn't stuck shut, is the MINIMUM operating temperature of the coolant. NOT the maximum. The Maximum, is a combination of efficiency of the cooling passages themselves in the block, heads, and whether or not the Radiator is adequate for the car's cooling needs. THAT is what combats heat.
On a cold winter's day, what thermostat you run changes your max operating temps, because it's Freakin Cold out side, and thus your RADIATOR is cooling more effectively. In summer months, once the car is up to operating temperature, assuming the RADIATOR, cooling passages and waterpump (enough flow to efficiently circulate through the engine... ie not too little flow) is what is doing all the heat rejecting.
When it's 100 degrees outside, unless you have an especially capable radiator, your Thermostat, is probably going to stay open full time, and the car will probably be at 185 to 195 degrees, at sustained speeds above 45 mph. Obviously, the longer the car sits in traffic the longer it will take of sustained driving for the cooling system to bring temps back down.
Flow restriction unless it's so restricted that it literally can't make it back to the radiator, has nothing to do with how effective your cooling is, what so ever. Now if you have blocked passages (due to crud build up) or a stuck thermostat that's different, as it's holding the coolant back from making it back to the radiator.
Last edited by MavsAK; 11-02-2015 at 06:18 PM.
11-03-2015, 12:12 AM
#26
Melting Slicks
Tom, we're on the same page, even If my wording was confusing. The engineer advocated PROPER coolant flow, discovered via various sized washers. Not having such, I found the Robert Shaw worked, where a Stant, even with 'bleeder holes', did not. This engine produces way more heat than a stock engine, especially when I use that power. Visually comparing the orifice sizes of the two brands made the brand choice relevant.
Mav, I understand 'stat ops. There is no cold winter here, but heat's an issue. There are a LOT of words to say: proper flow is essential. This engine and ALL parts were new, passageways were not clogged, etc, etc. Insufficient flow, has everything to do with insufficient cooling and the Stant was impeding sufficient flow all by its self. I am not trashing the brand but know what was changed and that one $12 part solved the overheating problem this engine had.
On your theoretical 100* day, it'll idle forever at 210, thermostat modulating or not, as the stock, single fan runs; NOT the case before the brand change.
Mav, I understand 'stat ops. There is no cold winter here, but heat's an issue. There are a LOT of words to say: proper flow is essential. This engine and ALL parts were new, passageways were not clogged, etc, etc. Insufficient flow, has everything to do with insufficient cooling and the Stant was impeding sufficient flow all by its self. I am not trashing the brand but know what was changed and that one $12 part solved the overheating problem this engine had.
On your theoretical 100* day, it'll idle forever at 210, thermostat modulating or not, as the stock, single fan runs; NOT the case before the brand change.
Last edited by whalepirot; 11-03-2015 at 12:16 AM.
11-03-2015, 12:53 AM
#27
Melting Slicks
Tom, we're on the same page, even If my wording was confusing. The engineer advocated PROPER coolant flow, discovered via various sized washers. Not having such, I found the Robert Shaw worked, where a Stant, even with 'bleeder holes', did not. This engine produces way more heat than a stock engine, especially when I use that power. Visually comparing the orifice sizes of the two brands made the brand choice relevant.
Mav, I understand 'stat ops. There is no cold winter here, but heat's an issue. There are a LOT of words to say: proper flow is essential. This engine and ALL parts were new, passageways were not clogged, etc, etc. Insufficient flow, has everything to do with insufficient cooling and the Stant was impeding sufficient flow all by its self. I am not trashing the brand but know what was changed and that one $12 part solved the overheating problem this engine had.
On your theoretical 100* day, it'll idle forever at 210, thermostat modulating or not, as the stock, single fan runs; NOT the case before the brand change.
Mav, I understand 'stat ops. There is no cold winter here, but heat's an issue. There are a LOT of words to say: proper flow is essential. This engine and ALL parts were new, passageways were not clogged, etc, etc. Insufficient flow, has everything to do with insufficient cooling and the Stant was impeding sufficient flow all by its self. I am not trashing the brand but know what was changed and that one $12 part solved the overheating problem this engine had.
On your theoretical 100* day, it'll idle forever at 210, thermostat modulating or not, as the stock, single fan runs; NOT the case before the brand change.
I don't remember which one I went with this last time around but the opening is MUCH larger than the stant, and has a bleeder valve that is also large enough to actually function. Oreilly's carries it that much I can tell you as far as what I put in the vette this last time.
A defective (or poorly designed in the case of a Stant) thermostat is a little different than just a swap to a cooler stat, is all I'm sayin.
Stant also makes really crappy gas caps too.
I'm starting to think of Stant like I think of Fram... garbage and a waste of packaging cardboard.
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11-18-2015, 12:35 PM
#28
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Posted it, HERE.
I didn't pick just one question, I got greedy. Hopefully the thread goes somewhere productive!
I didn't pick just one question, I got greedy. Hopefully the thread goes somewhere productive!
11-19-2015, 11:33 PM
#29
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Unfortunate that these good questions won't even be put up for a vote ... 
11-20-2015, 12:41 AM
#30
I'm not understanding what is so hard to ask? Who cares about the generation, it's possible the facts are there. Whatever... I don't even care about c4's but I thought you should get an answer for all the time and thought put in to your threads.
11-20-2015, 10:46 AM
#31
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guys. JVP is pretty lame. That is about the respect that I thought we'd get....but I posted hoping that I would be wrong. Now JVP has locked the thread w/o even a response to the "general"/LORE questions. Pretty disappointing behavior. Thanks to those who posted up over there!
11-20-2015, 05:52 PM
#33
guys. JVP is pretty lame. That is about the respect that I thought we'd get....but I posted hoping that I would be wrong. Now JVP has locked the thread w/o even a response to the "general"/LORE questions. Pretty disappointing behavior. Thanks to those who posted up over there!
I can see Ferrari or Porsche guys doing the same to other years of cars...
11-21-2015, 04:38 AM
#34
Le Mans Master
A valiant effort I think. Perhaps there was just too much, what I might call "technical specifics". As JVP put it, and I see his point, most of the people that would really know those answers, might not be so easy to get those answers from today.
However, what I think might be interesting, even to the newer generation fans, is how being involved with the C4 early in his career, this car, and the technology it brought at the time, bringing the Corvette from America's hot rod, to being America's sports car, influenced him and the generation of Corvettes that followed.
"Tadge, many of us are curious as to how, earlier in your career, when being involved with the fourth generation Corvette, how that transformation of Corvette to becoming a world beating sports car, influenced you in the design and engineering of the generations to follow. " --something along those lines, perhaps.
However, what I think might be interesting, even to the newer generation fans, is how being involved with the C4 early in his career, this car, and the technology it brought at the time, bringing the Corvette from America's hot rod, to being America's sports car, influenced him and the generation of Corvettes that followed.
"Tadge, many of us are curious as to how, earlier in your career, when being involved with the fourth generation Corvette, how that transformation of Corvette to becoming a world beating sports car, influenced you in the design and engineering of the generations to follow. " --something along those lines, perhaps.
11-21-2015, 02:54 PM
#35
Team Owner
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the comments^. Maybe your question would work. You can try. JVP told me straight up in a PM, that he's not going to entertain any older Gen 'Vette questions. So it's REALLY a "Ask Tadge C7 only" forum. He posted this due to a C6 and a C5 question that was asked, answered, then the thread turned into a **** show.
I get it... not wanting confrontation creating threads/questions but mine/ours was hardly that. To close your mind to other gens b/c of two bad examples (that were basically "charged" questions) is very disappointing. Further, the TYPES of questions asked in those two thread ("What are we going to do!?") were very, very different than the ones I was asking, which were very technical and perfect for an engineer. Certainly a lot better than other questions that have been posted, voted, asked and answered. (Like "What does $100m get you", and "Why did GTR beat Z06 in MT test"). Those aren't engineering related questions at all.
I admit that Tadge probably wouldn't have known the answer to the CFI ports. I doubt he'd have known the reason for the bore centers on the LT5, even though he was in the program when it was in production and probably knew Roy Midgley. But you can bet your *** that Tadge would know about the shortcomings of the C4 frame...and specifics thereof. And he'd have absolutely known the engineering explanations to the "general" questions too.
The best bet our C4 owning asses have of getting a question answered is to ask one of the "general" type questions. Someone else is welcome to try.
.
I get it... not wanting confrontation creating threads/questions but mine/ours was hardly that. To close your mind to other gens b/c of two bad examples (that were basically "charged" questions) is very disappointing. Further, the TYPES of questions asked in those two thread ("What are we going to do!?") were very, very different than the ones I was asking, which were very technical and perfect for an engineer. Certainly a lot better than other questions that have been posted, voted, asked and answered. (Like "What does $100m get you", and "Why did GTR beat Z06 in MT test"). Those aren't engineering related questions at all.
I admit that Tadge probably wouldn't have known the answer to the CFI ports. I doubt he'd have known the reason for the bore centers on the LT5, even though he was in the program when it was in production and probably knew Roy Midgley. But you can bet your *** that Tadge would know about the shortcomings of the C4 frame...and specifics thereof. And he'd have absolutely known the engineering explanations to the "general" questions too.
The best bet our C4 owning asses have of getting a question answered is to ask one of the "general" type questions. Someone else is welcome to try.
.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 11-21-2015 at 02:56 PM.
11-23-2015, 10:05 AM
#37
Le Mans Master
Thanks for the comments^. Maybe your question would work. You can try. JVP told me straight up in a PM, that he's not going to entertain any older Gen 'Vette questions. So it's REALLY a "Ask Tadge C7 only" forum. He posted this due to a C6 and a C5 question that was asked, answered, then the thread turned into a **** show.
I get it... not wanting confrontation creating threads/questions but mine/ours was hardly that. To close your mind to other gens b/c of two bad examples (that were basically "charged" questions) is very disappointing. Further, the TYPES of questions asked in those two thread ("What are we going to do!?") were very, very different than the ones I was asking, which were very technical and perfect for an engineer. Certainly a lot better than other questions that have been posted, voted, asked and answered. (Like "What does $100m get you", and "Why did GTR beat Z06 in MT test"). Those aren't engineering related questions at all.
I admit that Tadge probably wouldn't have known the answer to the CFI ports. I doubt he'd have known the reason for the bore centers on the LT5, even though he was in the program when it was in production and probably knew Roy Midgley. But you can bet your *** that Tadge would know about the shortcomings of the C4 frame...and specifics thereof. And he'd have absolutely known the engineering explanations to the "general" questions too.
The best bet our C4 owning asses have of getting a question answered is to ask one of the "general" type questions. Someone else is welcome to try.
.
I get it... not wanting confrontation creating threads/questions but mine/ours was hardly that. To close your mind to other gens b/c of two bad examples (that were basically "charged" questions) is very disappointing. Further, the TYPES of questions asked in those two thread ("What are we going to do!?") were very, very different than the ones I was asking, which were very technical and perfect for an engineer. Certainly a lot better than other questions that have been posted, voted, asked and answered. (Like "What does $100m get you", and "Why did GTR beat Z06 in MT test"). Those aren't engineering related questions at all.
I admit that Tadge probably wouldn't have known the answer to the CFI ports. I doubt he'd have known the reason for the bore centers on the LT5, even though he was in the program when it was in production and probably knew Roy Midgley. But you can bet your *** that Tadge would know about the shortcomings of the C4 frame...and specifics thereof. And he'd have absolutely known the engineering explanations to the "general" questions too.
The best bet our C4 owning asses have of getting a question answered is to ask one of the "general" type questions. Someone else is welcome to try.
.
Also, Juechter is more likely to respond to questions where the answer is going to praise the attributes of the C7, it's his baby, and the one GM is currently making money from. They don't even make parts for the C4's anymore. lol
11-23-2015, 11:25 AM
#38
Melting Slicks
Not really worth the effort. Visit the C7 forum for bit and you'll see it's an entirely different mind set. Not implying anything negative, just a big difference general thinking between those that buy brand new and those that restore, modify and maintain older generations. (PLease don't read this as a sweeping generalization in either direction)
Also, Juechter is more likely to respond to questions where the answer is going to praise the attributes of the C7, it's his baby, and the one GM is currently making money from. They don't even make parts for the C4's anymore. lol
Also, Juechter is more likely to respond to questions where the answer is going to praise the attributes of the C7, it's his baby, and the one GM is currently making money from. They don't even make parts for the C4's anymore. lol
11-23-2015, 12:03 PM
#39
Just a thought.
11-23-2015, 04:27 PM
#40
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Thread Starter
There was a magazine article that I could possibly find, but would be difficult, in which Tadge said that when he was asked to come on the corvette team he had two non negotiable requirements that the team had to include on the car. It would be interesting to know what they were since that indirectly relates to the older cars and the C7 since he is now the Chief Engineer and is calling the shots.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
IDK what the other "non-negotiable" was.