Who else is fed up with their C4?
12-05-2015, 11:58 AM
#21
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: South-central Missouri
Posts: 6,314
Received 500 Likes
on
395 Posts
My 95 demonstrated a similar problem; turned out to be a O2 sensor was intermittently shorting out.
Data logging reviled the dwell time on the starboard side injectors was 4 times that of the port side, and coincidentally at the same time the O2 voltage reading went to zero on the starboard bank. Dang thing would dump fuel on that side of the motor, pouring raw gas and black smoke out that side. And, the kicker was, NO code were being set that indicated what the problem was!
A lot of techs react to what they think is a problem they might be familiar with and change out parts, based on a guess. All of us are probably guilty of doing that at one time or another. However, if the problem gets fixed as result, it is in spite of actual knowledge about the failure, and not because of it!!
Statistics show 1) the repair is made far more cheaply when measurements/testing confirms a part failure first, and 2) 'infant mortality' increases the chance of expanding the issue to a multiple failure by the good chance a part that is otherwise working is replaced with one that is faulty. NOW there are TWO simultaneous problems that often complicates troubleshooting exponentially!
Then you see things get interesting - expensive too, to say nothing of the frustration when the problem still remains. I suspect you are at that point, huh?
(Wish I was closer, and I could help you out. Sick bastard that I am, I enjoy troubleshooting problems...
)
Data logging reviled the dwell time on the starboard side injectors was 4 times that of the port side, and coincidentally at the same time the O2 voltage reading went to zero on the starboard bank. Dang thing would dump fuel on that side of the motor, pouring raw gas and black smoke out that side. And, the kicker was, NO code were being set that indicated what the problem was!
A lot of techs react to what they think is a problem they might be familiar with and change out parts, based on a guess. All of us are probably guilty of doing that at one time or another. However, if the problem gets fixed as result, it is in spite of actual knowledge about the failure, and not because of it!!
Statistics show 1) the repair is made far more cheaply when measurements/testing confirms a part failure first, and 2) 'infant mortality' increases the chance of expanding the issue to a multiple failure by the good chance a part that is otherwise working is replaced with one that is faulty. NOW there are TWO simultaneous problems that often complicates troubleshooting exponentially!
Then you see things get interesting - expensive too, to say nothing of the frustration when the problem still remains. I suspect you are at that point, huh? (Wish I was closer, and I could help you out. Sick bastard that I am, I enjoy troubleshooting problems...
)
Last edited by Paul Workman; 12-05-2015 at 12:02 PM.
12-05-2015, 12:48 PM
#23
Race Director
Thread Starter
My 95 demonstrated a similar problem; turned out to be a O2 sensor was intermittently shorting out.
Data logging reviled the dwell time on the starboard side injectors was 4 times that of the port side, and coincidentally at the same time the O2 voltage reading went to zero on the starboard bank. Dang thing would dump fuel on that side of the motor, pouring raw gas and black smoke out that side. And, the kicker was, NO code were being set that indicated what the problem was!
A lot of techs react to what they think is a problem they might be familiar with and change out parts, based on a guess. All of us are probably guilty of doing that at one time or another. However, if the problem gets fixed as result, it is in spite of actual knowledge about the failure, and not because of it!!
Statistics show 1) the repair is made far more cheaply when measurements/testing confirms a part failure first, and 2) 'infant mortality' increases the chance of expanding the issue to a multiple failure by the good chance a part that is otherwise working is replaced with one that is faulty. NOW there are TWO simultaneous problems that often complicates troubleshooting exponentially! Then you see things get interesting - expensive too, to say nothing of the frustration when the problem still remains. I suspect you are at that point, huh?
(Wish I was closer, and I could help you out. Sick bastard that I am, I enjoy troubleshooting problems...)
Data logging reviled the dwell time on the starboard side injectors was 4 times that of the port side, and coincidentally at the same time the O2 voltage reading went to zero on the starboard bank. Dang thing would dump fuel on that side of the motor, pouring raw gas and black smoke out that side. And, the kicker was, NO code were being set that indicated what the problem was!
A lot of techs react to what they think is a problem they might be familiar with and change out parts, based on a guess. All of us are probably guilty of doing that at one time or another. However, if the problem gets fixed as result, it is in spite of actual knowledge about the failure, and not because of it!!
Statistics show 1) the repair is made far more cheaply when measurements/testing confirms a part failure first, and 2) 'infant mortality' increases the chance of expanding the issue to a multiple failure by the good chance a part that is otherwise working is replaced with one that is faulty. NOW there are TWO simultaneous problems that often complicates troubleshooting exponentially!
Then you see things get interesting - expensive too, to say nothing of the frustration when the problem still remains. I suspect you are at that point, huh? (Wish I was closer, and I could help you out. Sick bastard that I am, I enjoy troubleshooting problems...
)(from Antfarmer) when you pulled the fuse it would hold pressure. if you plug it back does it leak? if so trace the wires from the fuse to the injectors. might have a mouse playing with you. Well I don't think there is a Mouse problem, but I'll have to plug the Inj's back in and try pressure with key on again. If I recall, it wasn't holding pressure last time I did it but I think I had air in the line too from screwing around with the regulator.
Thanks for the ideas guys. I like to work on my cars too, but I like to choose what and when. I don't like to HAVE to do something unexpected. I'll get back to this project next week when I get back home.
12-05-2015, 01:08 PM
#24
Pauls idea does make sense maybe a rattle snake bite? 
Last edited by antfarmer2; 12-05-2015 at 01:08 PM.
12-05-2015, 01:51 PM
#25
Race Director
I hate to say it, but I am as well. When it runs good, there's nothing like it. My car has been down since early August. It sucks. All my codes are "History", so that makes it harder to diagnose.
12-05-2015, 02:06 PM
#26
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 49,002
Received 6,943 Likes
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4,782 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
its a love hate thing for me. when its running right I like it. when it starts throwing codes I want to sell it
12-05-2015, 05:57 PM
#28
Safety Car
Just an idea. Unplug the MAF sensor and cause a problem. This will do a couple things. Takes the MAF and 02's out of the equation. Puts car into open loop mode all the time and into speed density operation as well. See if you get a change.
FYI, to all, if your doing ANY kind of diagnostic work on ANY computer controlled vehicle you pretty much NEED a scan tool that will show data. Shoot, I was working on a 1987 Monte Carlo SS with a feed back carburetor and having a scan tool that showed data did help a ton. I fixed the ECT on that car and I noticed how lean it was just on a test drive with some data to confirm the symptoms and point in a direction.
Without seeing what the ECM is seeing your just guessing. Inputs into ECM, ECM computes this according to program, ECM controls outputs. Crap in=crap out. You cannot tell this without seeing the data.
FYI, to all, if your doing ANY kind of diagnostic work on ANY computer controlled vehicle you pretty much NEED a scan tool that will show data. Shoot, I was working on a 1987 Monte Carlo SS with a feed back carburetor and having a scan tool that showed data did help a ton. I fixed the ECT on that car and I noticed how lean it was just on a test drive with some data to confirm the symptoms and point in a direction.
Without seeing what the ECM is seeing your just guessing. Inputs into ECM, ECM computes this according to program, ECM controls outputs. Crap in=crap out. You cannot tell this without seeing the data.
12-06-2015, 11:51 AM
#29
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
It bums me out to hear about people struggling w/their car. I know the feeling; My first car ('83 Trans Am, during the late '80's/early 90's) was unbelievably unreliable, when I first got it. Electrical issues, one after another, CEL light on a lot, Trans blew...on and on. I wanted to "blow it up" at times, but I stuck w/it and eventually, "my boat got up on plane", so to speak. I conquered the issues and it ultimately became a reliable car.
My 'Vette, surprisingly is our most reliable car! I've had it 6 years now, and put about 40,000 miles on it. Out side of PM, I've replaced the Opti once and the knock sensors. That is pretty good....and way, WAY better than our '05 CTS-V, which has had:
*Failed engine mounts,
*Failed Trans mount,
*Blown T56 Transmission
*Bad alternator
*Leaking radiator
*Bad driveshaft center carrier bering support
*Various interior bits and pieces failed/broken
*3rd brake light went out (noteworthy b/c it's an $800 part!!)
*AC line chaffed through, lost all charge
...car only has 135k on it now...30k less than the 'Vette, and it's 13 years newer! I've fixed all of the above on that car, and consequently, it's still a "nice car"....but I wouldn't call it trouble free...that is for sure.
The 'Vette, like most cars, needs an attentive eye and good TLC, but it can be a reliable runner. Stick with it, have some patience and remain calm when a problem arrises; most are pretty easy and cheap to fix....I feel that your efforts will prevail in the longer run.
.
My 'Vette, surprisingly is our most reliable car! I've had it 6 years now, and put about 40,000 miles on it. Out side of PM, I've replaced the Opti once and the knock sensors. That is pretty good....and way, WAY better than our '05 CTS-V, which has had:
*Failed engine mounts,
*Failed Trans mount,
*Blown T56 Transmission
*Bad alternator
*Leaking radiator
*Bad driveshaft center carrier bering support
*Various interior bits and pieces failed/broken
*3rd brake light went out (noteworthy b/c it's an $800 part!!)
*AC line chaffed through, lost all charge
...car only has 135k on it now...30k less than the 'Vette, and it's 13 years newer! I've fixed all of the above on that car, and consequently, it's still a "nice car"....but I wouldn't call it trouble free...that is for sure.
The 'Vette, like most cars, needs an attentive eye and good TLC, but it can be a reliable runner. Stick with it, have some patience and remain calm when a problem arrises; most are pretty easy and cheap to fix....I feel that your efforts will prevail in the longer run.
.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 12-06-2015 at 11:51 AM.
12-06-2015, 12:04 PM
#30
Safety Car
I hate threads like this. The car just needs a proper diagnosis, nothing more, and since the OP can't seem to figure it out the car is just a raging POS? Come one already.
12-06-2015, 12:51 PM
#31
Safety Car
It's easier for some people to moan and complain about their cars problems and do nothing but slam the car calling it a POS than to actually spend money and fix it correctly. If there are that many things wrong with it, it's a usually a sign of neglect somewhere or too many back yard mechanics screwing with it. Try using a professional mechanic or trained Corvette specialist. Or just try a simple fix. Sell the dam thing and get something else. No one wants to hear all the complaining except the one who makes the compaints. "Misery loves company" is the term that describes it.
12-06-2015, 01:28 PM
#32
Melting Slicks
I end up starting to reply with the "its not the car fault" responses and end up not posting.
Its kind of complicated when you step back and look at it all.
There are different camps in this and its all based on the owner not the car but its not so easy to just throw the owner under the bus. I see this all the time with bmw's too. I call it the bmw tax syndrome. Corvettes have the same issue to some extent.
The first camp is the gear heads, previously used to be a mechanic or just loves working on cars and understands how they work. I'm in this camp. So to me any problem is easy or at least I understand how to fix it because I understand how its supposed to work in the first place. Plus I have a ton of diagnostic tools too. This camp of owners isn't going to post threads like this because it just never occurs to them any of the problems are a big deal to deal with.
The second camp is the checkbook warrior. They believe they just have to pay aka write a check to solve any problem that comes along. This method is fine as long as their bank account is decent enough to handle the problems encountered but they will wind up making threads like this eventually if the cost exceeds what they consider to be the value of the car.
So if they see the car as a collector item then the money spent doesn't bother them as much or if the cost doesn't start approaching what the paid for the car in the first place.
Camp number three is what we will be seeing more and more and have seen a good bit of late. This bunch notices all these cool sports cars they thought they normally couldn't afford suddenly going for really cheap prices. They have no clue how to fix cars in general but figure hey it looks cool and its cheap. The ones in this camp are pretty much screwed since they don't have the fixit ability of camp 1 or the money of camp 2. So they have a car they sunk money into they really couldn't afford to spend in the first place and no idea how to even keep it running from even the simplest of problems.
Camp 2 and 3 are what were going to see the most of and before jumping on them remember they are in a bad situation. Repair shops see them as easy marks. Also most repair shops now cant fix anything without an obd2 port and a how to guide that requires the obd2 scanner or scan tool.
So either they get screwed over by a clueless mechanic or raped by a greedy shop. Doesn't take many of these experiences to really hate the car fast.
Just something to consider when we deal with these threads. Its just going to get more common as time goes by.
So do we try to show them how to fix the problems and ease them into the fold or make fun of them or go off on them since we know the cars are not the overall problem?
Its kind of complicated when you step back and look at it all.
There are different camps in this and its all based on the owner not the car but its not so easy to just throw the owner under the bus. I see this all the time with bmw's too. I call it the bmw tax syndrome. Corvettes have the same issue to some extent.
The first camp is the gear heads, previously used to be a mechanic or just loves working on cars and understands how they work. I'm in this camp. So to me any problem is easy or at least I understand how to fix it because I understand how its supposed to work in the first place. Plus I have a ton of diagnostic tools too. This camp of owners isn't going to post threads like this because it just never occurs to them any of the problems are a big deal to deal with.
The second camp is the checkbook warrior. They believe they just have to pay aka write a check to solve any problem that comes along. This method is fine as long as their bank account is decent enough to handle the problems encountered but they will wind up making threads like this eventually if the cost exceeds what they consider to be the value of the car.
So if they see the car as a collector item then the money spent doesn't bother them as much or if the cost doesn't start approaching what the paid for the car in the first place.
Camp number three is what we will be seeing more and more and have seen a good bit of late. This bunch notices all these cool sports cars they thought they normally couldn't afford suddenly going for really cheap prices. They have no clue how to fix cars in general but figure hey it looks cool and its cheap. The ones in this camp are pretty much screwed since they don't have the fixit ability of camp 1 or the money of camp 2. So they have a car they sunk money into they really couldn't afford to spend in the first place and no idea how to even keep it running from even the simplest of problems.
Camp 2 and 3 are what were going to see the most of and before jumping on them remember they are in a bad situation. Repair shops see them as easy marks. Also most repair shops now cant fix anything without an obd2 port and a how to guide that requires the obd2 scanner or scan tool.
So either they get screwed over by a clueless mechanic or raped by a greedy shop. Doesn't take many of these experiences to really hate the car fast.
Just something to consider when we deal with these threads. Its just going to get more common as time goes by.
So do we try to show them how to fix the problems and ease them into the fold or make fun of them or go off on them since we know the cars are not the overall problem?
Last edited by crowz; 12-06-2015 at 01:31 PM.
The following 3 users liked this post by crowz:
12-06-2015, 01:35 PM
#33
well said and very true. 
12-06-2015, 01:37 PM
#34
Safety Car
I'm not making fun of him or going off on him, rather pointing out the truth.
OP go grab a scan tool from the parts store or buy one from Harbor Freight as others have said otherwise you're just shooting in the dark. Lucky you the car is OBDII.
OP go grab a scan tool from the parts store or buy one from Harbor Freight as others have said otherwise you're just shooting in the dark. Lucky you the car is OBDII.
I end up starting to reply with the "its not the car fault" responses and end up not posting.
Its kind of complicated when you step back and look at it all.
There are different camps in this and its all based on the owner not the car but its not so easy to just throw the owner under the bus. I see this all the time with bmw's too. I call it the bmw tax syndrome. Corvettes have the same issue to some extent.
The first camp is the gear heads, previously used to be a mechanic or just loves working on cars and understands how they work. I'm in this camp. So to me any problem is easy or at least I understand how to fix it because I understand how its supposed to work in the first place. Plus I have a ton of diagnostic tools too. This camp of owners isn't going to post threads like this because it just never occurs to them any of the problems are a big deal to deal with.
The second camp is the checkbook warrior. They believe they just have to pay aka write a check to solve any problem that comes along. This method is fine as long as their bank account is decent enough to handle the problems encountered but they will wind up making threads like this eventually if the cost exceeds what they consider to be the value of the car.
So if they see the car as a collector item then the money spent doesn't bother them as much or if the cost doesn't start approaching what the paid for the car in the first place.
Camp number three is what we will be seeing more and more and have seen a good bit of late. This bunch notices all these cool sports cars they thought they normally couldn't afford suddenly going for really cheap prices. They have no clue how to fix cars in general but figure hey it looks cool and its cheap. The ones in this camp are pretty much screwed since they don't have the fixit ability of camp 1 or the money of camp 2. So they have a car they sunk money into they really couldn't afford to spend in the first place and no idea how to even keep it running from even the simplest of problems.
Camp 2 and 3 are what were going to see the most of and before jumping on them remember they are in a bad situation. Repair shops see them as easy marks. Also most repair shops now cant fix anything without an obd2 port and a how to guide that requires the obd2 scanner or scan tool.
So either they get screwed over by a clueless mechanic or raped by a greedy shop. Doesn't take many of these experiences to really hate the car fast.
Just something to consider when we deal with these threads. Its just going to get more common as time goes by.
So do we try to show them how to fix the problems and ease them into the fold or make fun of them or go off on them since we know the cars are not the overall problem?
Its kind of complicated when you step back and look at it all.
There are different camps in this and its all based on the owner not the car but its not so easy to just throw the owner under the bus. I see this all the time with bmw's too. I call it the bmw tax syndrome. Corvettes have the same issue to some extent.
The first camp is the gear heads, previously used to be a mechanic or just loves working on cars and understands how they work. I'm in this camp. So to me any problem is easy or at least I understand how to fix it because I understand how its supposed to work in the first place. Plus I have a ton of diagnostic tools too. This camp of owners isn't going to post threads like this because it just never occurs to them any of the problems are a big deal to deal with.
The second camp is the checkbook warrior. They believe they just have to pay aka write a check to solve any problem that comes along. This method is fine as long as their bank account is decent enough to handle the problems encountered but they will wind up making threads like this eventually if the cost exceeds what they consider to be the value of the car.
So if they see the car as a collector item then the money spent doesn't bother them as much or if the cost doesn't start approaching what the paid for the car in the first place.
Camp number three is what we will be seeing more and more and have seen a good bit of late. This bunch notices all these cool sports cars they thought they normally couldn't afford suddenly going for really cheap prices. They have no clue how to fix cars in general but figure hey it looks cool and its cheap. The ones in this camp are pretty much screwed since they don't have the fixit ability of camp 1 or the money of camp 2. So they have a car they sunk money into they really couldn't afford to spend in the first place and no idea how to even keep it running from even the simplest of problems.
Camp 2 and 3 are what were going to see the most of and before jumping on them remember they are in a bad situation. Repair shops see them as easy marks. Also most repair shops now cant fix anything without an obd2 port and a how to guide that requires the obd2 scanner or scan tool.
So either they get screwed over by a clueless mechanic or raped by a greedy shop. Doesn't take many of these experiences to really hate the car fast.
Just something to consider when we deal with these threads. Its just going to get more common as time goes by.
So do we try to show them how to fix the problems and ease them into the fold or make fun of them or go off on them since we know the cars are not the overall problem?
12-06-2015, 01:43 PM
#35
Melting Slicks
Id didn't mean my post to say anyone is going off wrong on this just figured to Id put forth something I had been thinking about for awhile now.
12-06-2015, 05:09 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Quote from Innova their tech support after my last purchase.
"The reason why the Corvette doesn’t connect with our scan tool is because it uses a different protocol which are tools don’t have."
Good luck with getting your issues sorted out Klondike, and keep us up to date on your progress.
12-06-2015, 05:41 PM
#39
Safety Car
If you are getting an ODBII scanner for the 96, you need to find a manufacture who supports the 96 Corvette. I so far have purchased two of them and they DO NOT support the Corvette. The scanner can not even tell if it's hooked up or not.
Quote from Innova their tech support after my last purchase.
"The reason why the Corvette doesn’t connect with our scan tool is because it uses a different protocol which are tools don’t have."
Good luck with getting your issues sorted out Klondike, and keep us up to date on your progress.
Quote from Innova their tech support after my last purchase.
"The reason why the Corvette doesn’t connect with our scan tool is because it uses a different protocol which are tools don’t have."
Good luck with getting your issues sorted out Klondike, and keep us up to date on your progress.
Shoot the pins for power, ground, and communication are mandated by law. At least those basic three, the rest are up to the OEM.
12-06-2015, 05:58 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
@ 93Rubie
That is what I thought but I have 2 scanners and neither will work with my 96. They work on every other vehicle I own and my kids vehicles but they will not work with my vette. I am not saying that there are not any scanners that will work with the 96 vette but that you need to talk to the manufacture first to make sure the one you buy will.
I purchased model 3100-ABS. Innova told me that I needed model 3100g-ABS to work with my vette.
That is what I thought but I have 2 scanners and neither will work with my 96. They work on every other vehicle I own and my kids vehicles but they will not work with my vette. I am not saying that there are not any scanners that will work with the 96 vette but that you need to talk to the manufacture first to make sure the one you buy will.
I purchased model 3100-ABS. Innova told me that I needed model 3100g-ABS to work with my vette.
Last edited by ColaBear; 12-06-2015 at 05:59 PM.