are fast cars just not exciting anymore?
08-16-2017, 05:25 PM
#101
Team Owner
Do a Google lookup on "Florida makes living off grid illegal". Then tell us how the major corporations are going to let their puppets allow us all to have enough solar power to fire up the car and power the house, etc etc.
The biggest impediment to electric cars is recharging stations. Until the public feels confident that there are enough stations and that the cars recharge quick enough, a conversion to total electric cars won't happen. I see more and more cars going part electric / part fuel hydrocarbon based fuel until the infrastructure catches up to the same level gas stations are.
It has only been in the last 10 years or so that there were places going across Nebraska that I was starting to worry about not finding fuel. I started carrying 4 or 5 5-gallon cans of diesel, 260 extra miles of driving in case I needed it. There is no provision to carry an extra 260 miles worth of electrons in the same space.
You also have road use taxes to come into play. Various states have already tried to impose big increases on the annual license fee to take into account dwindling road taxes due to the increase in fuel mileage and less gasoline being used.
One way or another government and corporations are going to continue to try and squeeze money out one way or another, unless there is a massive rethink in the way the economy runs. We are a long long way from achieving the economic model as portrayed in Star Trek.
The biggest impediment to electric cars is recharging stations. Until the public feels confident that there are enough stations and that the cars recharge quick enough, a conversion to total electric cars won't happen. I see more and more cars going part electric / part fuel hydrocarbon based fuel until the infrastructure catches up to the same level gas stations are.
It has only been in the last 10 years or so that there were places going across Nebraska that I was starting to worry about not finding fuel. I started carrying 4 or 5 5-gallon cans of diesel, 260 extra miles of driving in case I needed it. There is no provision to carry an extra 260 miles worth of electrons in the same space.
You also have road use taxes to come into play. Various states have already tried to impose big increases on the annual license fee to take into account dwindling road taxes due to the increase in fuel mileage and less gasoline being used.
One way or another government and corporations are going to continue to try and squeeze money out one way or another, unless there is a massive rethink in the way the economy runs. We are a long long way from achieving the economic model as portrayed in Star Trek.
Question is, I think, the recharge time. My gas car takes 10 minutes to "recharge" at a gas station. If I cannot do that in an electric car, that might be a hard sell.
You need 260 miles of extra range? Kinda long a reach
I think that becomes an issue. Your gas is taxed and that money goes to repair the damage you caused and when the revenue goes down and the cost goes up, something has to give. Of course that according to a report I read years ago that said 40 to 60 cents of that gas tax is ACTUALLY used for road projects is also a problem.
Star Trek is a fantasy. You paid money to escape reality at the movie theater. Man is a very ugly creature so it is an impossible journey. That depends on mankind being more altruistic. Not happened, not happening and if I am right, ain't EVER happening. Read the parable of the frog and the scorpion.
08-16-2017, 08:01 PM
#102
Race Director
All the "innovation" lately has been in packaging of stuff or in how to get information from you. That information only is of value if you have money to spend, which between student loan debt, and a total sell out of the middle class, it won't last long.
The last jobs that can be outsourced or automated are trades. If I had kids, is be encouraging them to skip college and get a job as an electrician or plumber. Or AC tech.
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whalepirot (08-17-2017)
08-16-2017, 08:33 PM
#103
Team Owner
The only things that aren't cost effective to replace are boots on ground, hands on jobs. I can hire an engineer in Mexico for 1/10th the money. Hell, I can hire them in as a line worker, just so they have a chance to be hired as an engineer. Legal work is already being outsourced programming has long been outsourced, health care isn't far behind.
All the "innovation" lately has been in packaging of stuff or in how to get information from you. That information only is of value if you have money to spend, which between student loan debt, and a total sell out of the middle class, it won't last long.
The last jobs that can be outsourced or automated are trades. If I had kids, is be encouraging them to skip college and get a job as an electrician or plumber. Or AC tech.
All the "innovation" lately has been in packaging of stuff or in how to get information from you. That information only is of value if you have money to spend, which between student loan debt, and a total sell out of the middle class, it won't last long.
The last jobs that can be outsourced or automated are trades. If I had kids, is be encouraging them to skip college and get a job as an electrician or plumber. Or AC tech.
Correct. It don't matter if the loaf of bread is a dime when you DON'T have a dime. People being people will sell themselves out till there is nothing to sell. This country, that country. It happens because we have one thing in common. We are human.
Or go somewhere where it is blooming, use it like a $2 hooker at a men's prison and move on. Many civilizations did that. Use the area, it dies, they move on to greener pastures.
08-16-2017, 10:49 PM
#104
Burning Brakes
cars
i remember so much buzz and hype when the c4 zr-1 came out in 1989. many people i knew talked about it / dreamed about it.
so much faster than the 4 cylider ford tempos we all drove as DD's.
nowdays everything is fast. a fast car just doesnt seem as exciting as it once did.
roads are more congested, theres more people. spirited driving makes you an a-ho1e to others on the road. ive had the experience of a c7 corvette trying to pass me, on the right, at 120 mph (no, theres not enough time to recognize a car coming up on you that fast to move over and it apparently didnt matter i was running 10 over the speed limit anyways)
a friend of mine at dodge confirmed that they are looking to put the hellcat engine into police cars. soon, the cops will have more power than you do, for free and they will be allowed to drive like that while you arent.
so where is this hobby headed ? is a fast car just not as cool as it once was ?
or has my attitude / enthusiasm changed ?
so much faster than the 4 cylider ford tempos we all drove as DD's.
nowdays everything is fast. a fast car just doesnt seem as exciting as it once did.
roads are more congested, theres more people. spirited driving makes you an a-ho1e to others on the road. ive had the experience of a c7 corvette trying to pass me, on the right, at 120 mph (no, theres not enough time to recognize a car coming up on you that fast to move over and it apparently didnt matter i was running 10 over the speed limit anyways)
a friend of mine at dodge confirmed that they are looking to put the hellcat engine into police cars. soon, the cops will have more power than you do, for free and they will be allowed to drive like that while you arent.
so where is this hobby headed ? is a fast car just not as cool as it once was ?
or has my attitude / enthusiasm changed ?
08-17-2017, 10:14 AM
#105
Lot's of posts and I'm not sure if anyone has approached this as I see it.
"fast" has been re-defined over the last 20 years or so.
For those of us old enough to be driving in the mid-70s and through the 1980s and very early 1990s.......... we all know well enough how the "older" fast cars became so very popular and sought after.
Muscle cars, Pony cars and Corvettes......all hit a wall in the mid 1970s on emission control regulations.
The Muscle cars were never really very good cars anyway.......they just went away entirely when their only selling point, a powerful engine was gone.
The pony cars and Corvettes.....came to the party with more than just their engines......good looking and with a driving experience that while seriously diminished on a real lack of power.....they still offered enough to keep them alive.
For just about 2 full decades (the mid 70s -mid 90s) every car oriented buyer pined away for what once was. The hunt for a good 1960s and early 70s GM, Ford or Chrysler product was born.
Things started to change though in the 1990s. For GM fans......it was the re-introduction of a famous name plate the LT1. Chevrolet was very open about why they chose this old designation for the new motor found in a 1992 Corvette and '93 model year Camaro and Firebird. GM was signalling very clearly a new era of power that would leave the muscle car era in a place where it's only selling point now was nostalgia.
Who among the baby boomers wouldn't love to put a perfect example of our favorite Icon of he 1960s era in the garage? We still like and can find room for these cars but we no longer buy them for the power they have.........it's all nostalgia now.
Today's cars are just BETTER in every measurable way.........people too young to remmber when Hemi Chryslers, Cobra Jet Fords and Rat motor Chevy's were roaming the streets......they don't get the nostalgia. They may like the body style and simplicity of working on cars with all the tech found in push mower for the cutting the grass....but beyond that......they will never see these cars as we do.
"fast" has been re-defined over the last 20 years or so.
For those of us old enough to be driving in the mid-70s and through the 1980s and very early 1990s.......... we all know well enough how the "older" fast cars became so very popular and sought after.
Muscle cars, Pony cars and Corvettes......all hit a wall in the mid 1970s on emission control regulations.
The Muscle cars were never really very good cars anyway.......they just went away entirely when their only selling point, a powerful engine was gone.
The pony cars and Corvettes.....came to the party with more than just their engines......good looking and with a driving experience that while seriously diminished on a real lack of power.....they still offered enough to keep them alive.
For just about 2 full decades (the mid 70s -mid 90s) every car oriented buyer pined away for what once was. The hunt for a good 1960s and early 70s GM, Ford or Chrysler product was born.
Things started to change though in the 1990s. For GM fans......it was the re-introduction of a famous name plate the LT1. Chevrolet was very open about why they chose this old designation for the new motor found in a 1992 Corvette and '93 model year Camaro and Firebird. GM was signalling very clearly a new era of power that would leave the muscle car era in a place where it's only selling point now was nostalgia.
Who among the baby boomers wouldn't love to put a perfect example of our favorite Icon of he 1960s era in the garage? We still like and can find room for these cars but we no longer buy them for the power they have.........it's all nostalgia now.
Today's cars are just BETTER in every measurable way.........people too young to remmber when Hemi Chryslers, Cobra Jet Fords and Rat motor Chevy's were roaming the streets......they don't get the nostalgia. They may like the body style and simplicity of working on cars with all the tech found in push mower for the cutting the grass....but beyond that......they will never see these cars as we do.
Last edited by Krystal; 08-17-2017 at 10:16 AM.
08-17-2017, 10:41 AM
#106
Team Owner
There was a record research company I knew of. They would make books for DJs so you could pick the favorite genre, etc for that year. Suffice to say, they did a lot of reserach. What they found out was that within 10 years of HS, people generally form an opinion of what they like. So as a 1980 grad, my favorite music lies between 1970 to 1990. While I might like most any type of music, it is likely that I will be of the R&R group and probably not classical. Again, those are trends and not rules.
Maybe people like the cars for nostalgia because that was an era they understand. Kinda like Grandpa doesn't understand how Dad thought as well as his buddies who are from his era. Probably the problem is exacerbated because we all live in different households instead of a 3 tier family that has regular interaction.
My hunch is these youngsters don't understand what you are talking about because it isn't their generation. When they become the old geezers, they too might have nostalgia for something that is in their childhood and/or formative years. When they are now in a time that things make less and less sense to them, they want to be transported back to a time where things were "natural".
Maybe people like the cars for nostalgia because that was an era they understand. Kinda like Grandpa doesn't understand how Dad thought as well as his buddies who are from his era. Probably the problem is exacerbated because we all live in different households instead of a 3 tier family that has regular interaction.
My hunch is these youngsters don't understand what you are talking about because it isn't their generation. When they become the old geezers, they too might have nostalgia for something that is in their childhood and/or formative years. When they are now in a time that things make less and less sense to them, they want to be transported back to a time where things were "natural".
08-17-2017, 10:54 AM
#107
I agree. The proof is the pokemon craze resurgence. Marketers now have just figured out to go after the sweet spot sooner. So kids born in like 1990+ now are young adults who probably can't afford a new corvette, but they can buy "collector" cards they use to have or lust for. Now I seen a show where some Nerd paid 23K for a card, and he offered more originally but the girl passed and ended up selling later for the $23,000, because she needed money.
People will usually pay for their past if they can afford it.
People will usually pay for their past if they can afford it.
08-17-2017, 11:10 AM
#108
Le Mans Master
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Great thread. Very thought-provoking. I was trying to summarize my thoughts to add to this thread, but most of them have been captured already - one way or another. But, I kept coming back to this one inescapable truth:
Bob Dylan said best, back in 1964 (no less);
"...the first one now will become the last, for the
Bob Dylan said best, back in 1964 (no less);
"...the first one now will become the last, for the
08-17-2017, 01:28 PM
#109
Team Owner
Generally, if they want to bad enough, they will find a way. Me, OTOH, you couldn't interest me in my past if you gave it to me so, probably not. OTOH, I have paid for the more futuristic stuff because I wanted to find a way to afford it and it was practically possible.
08-17-2017, 01:37 PM
#110
Team Owner
ya think? I don't see it that way at all, For me NEW isn't always better
especially when it comes to cars
new appliances IMO are crap, and built to fail
and I can't say I'm in hurry to experience a CVT, as their reputation precedes them
when I replaced my 23 year old maytag washer I bought a speed queen with a rotary timer(analog) controller
and I searched high and low for a 2012 refridgerator with analog dial contols
the 2012 civic has a 5 speed automatic new ones don't
especially when it comes to cars
new appliances IMO are crap, and built to fail
and I can't say I'm in hurry to experience a CVT, as their reputation precedes them
when I replaced my 23 year old maytag washer I bought a speed queen with a rotary timer(analog) controller
and I searched high and low for a 2012 refridgerator with analog dial contols
the 2012 civic has a 5 speed automatic new ones don't
08-17-2017, 10:32 PM
#111
Racer
08-17-2017, 10:57 PM
#112
Water wetter is the future Bud
Last edited by pologreen1; 08-17-2017 at 10:58 PM.
08-18-2017, 08:00 AM
#113
Le Mans Master
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Things tend to go in a full circle cycle in life. We start off in diapers and end up in them... Most people treasure some part of their past... they believe that "things were better made back then".... probably more so with people of my generation as well as my parents generation. This is pretty accurate for this group... The steel used to build the old 50 or 60 something Chevrolet they owned compared to todays is apples to oranges. Lots of examples like that really...
I wonder what todays kids will be able to say for their "when I was a kid" X was so much better.... Im having trouble thinking of what that might be...Electronics tend to improve on a bi-annual basis.... and todays young people are completely emerged in electronic gadgets... Automobiles are improving in regards to safety and efficiency year to year.
Seemingly everything is being built with saving money in mind... which generally equates to less durability. Companies want you to return to buy their newest, latest greatest item, so building something with longevity in mind is not in their best interest. Damn near everything has become disposable these days. SO, how anything from today hold any value 20 or 30 years into the future is almost unfathomable to me..
Its strange to think that a 20 something today, 30 years from now will say things like... "yea, I remember when my buddies & I would pile into my 14' Honda Accord with a 6" fart can exhaust and 22" rims and go trolling for the 80 something Corvettes to screw with on Friday nights"
I wonder what todays kids will be able to say for their "when I was a kid" X was so much better.... Im having trouble thinking of what that might be...Electronics tend to improve on a bi-annual basis.... and todays young people are completely emerged in electronic gadgets... Automobiles are improving in regards to safety and efficiency year to year.
Seemingly everything is being built with saving money in mind... which generally equates to less durability. Companies want you to return to buy their newest, latest greatest item, so building something with longevity in mind is not in their best interest. Damn near everything has become disposable these days. SO, how anything from today hold any value 20 or 30 years into the future is almost unfathomable to me..
Its strange to think that a 20 something today, 30 years from now will say things like... "yea, I remember when my buddies & I would pile into my 14' Honda Accord with a 6" fart can exhaust and 22" rims and go trolling for the 80 something Corvettes to screw with on Friday nights"
08-19-2017, 04:09 PM
#114
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Back to the OP's original question, it may come down to simply this:
When is "enough, enough?"
It occurs to me that current performance levels (Corvettes, Demons, et al) is so waaaay above what the majority of drivers will ever experience in person, that the sub-conscience absurdity is overwhelming to most; even car enthusiasts!
Perhaps many people's eyes "glaze over" when sub-conscientiously they conclude performance above what they feel are their personal limitations are exceeded. At that point, i.e., 700 or 7000 hp is irrelevant!
It depends on the situation and the individual's abilities when "enough" is enough, I recon.
When is "enough, enough?"
It occurs to me that current performance levels (Corvettes, Demons, et al) is so waaaay above what the majority of drivers will ever experience in person, that the sub-conscience absurdity is overwhelming to most; even car enthusiasts!
Perhaps many people's eyes "glaze over" when sub-conscientiously they conclude performance above what they feel are their personal limitations are exceeded. At that point, i.e., 700 or 7000 hp is irrelevant!
It depends on the situation and the individual's abilities when "enough" is enough, I recon.
08-19-2017, 06:31 PM
#115
Team Owner
Things tend to go in a full circle cycle in life. We start off in diapers and end up in them.
I wonder what todays kids will be able to say for their "when I was a kid" X was so much better.... Im having trouble thinking of what that might be...Electronics tend to improve on a bi-annual basis.... and todays young people are completely emerged in electronic gadgets... Automobiles are improving in regards to safety and efficiency year to year.
Seemingly everything is being built with saving money in mind... which generally equates to less durability. Companies want you to return to buy their newest, latest greatest item, so building something with longevity in mind is not in their best interest. Damn near everything has become disposable these days.
SO, how anything from today hold any value 20 or 30 years into the future is almost unfathomable to me..
Its strange to think that a 20 something today, 30 years from now will say things like... "yea, I remember when my buddies & I would pile into my 14' Honda Accord with a 6" fart can exhaust and 22" rims and go trolling for the 80 something Corvettes to screw with on Friday nights"
I wonder what todays kids will be able to say for their "when I was a kid" X was so much better.... Im having trouble thinking of what that might be...Electronics tend to improve on a bi-annual basis.... and todays young people are completely emerged in electronic gadgets... Automobiles are improving in regards to safety and efficiency year to year.
Seemingly everything is being built with saving money in mind... which generally equates to less durability. Companies want you to return to buy their newest, latest greatest item, so building something with longevity in mind is not in their best interest. Damn near everything has become disposable these days.
SO, how anything from today hold any value 20 or 30 years into the future is almost unfathomable to me..
Its strange to think that a 20 something today, 30 years from now will say things like... "yea, I remember when my buddies & I would pile into my 14' Honda Accord with a 6" fart can exhaust and 22" rims and go trolling for the 80 something Corvettes to screw with on Friday nights"
It is only better because we look at it selectively with rose colored glasses. For instance, when you look at a huge and unexpected doctor's bill, you might (if you were old enough) long for the simpler days gone by. That is, until you look carefully at people who were dying from simple illnesses or worse yet, maimed or disabled by something that simple that all it took was a shot. Got Polio? Smallpox? How are them good old days now?
I think it is the buyer that wants it. Man wants a wrench. He sees Craftsman for $10 Wal*Mart has one for $5. What does the guy usually do? What did Sears do? The complied and brought in a cheap crap line. The shop can offer all it wants but if the consumer doesn't buy, they either go out of business or change. Blame the short sighted consumer not the store or business.
Doesn't have to. When mechanization came about, the paradigm shifted. As with the dinosaurs, either change or become oil.
100 years ago, what you did as a kid might be unfathomable. 200 years ago, you might be the guest of honor at a barbecue party at the stake. Things change. The past is gone forever. No reminiscing or longing will bring it back.
08-19-2017, 11:28 PM
#116
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Well, I think you're missing something. first, this is a car forum,,, we'll keep it car related.... We all are car hobbyists... differing levels of passion, talent, knowledge and of course of course different income levels.
My father is 70 years old. He had a few beautiful cars I know he wishes he had back. 57 Chevy Bel Air, 66 GTO 389 tri power, M22 4 speed. Does that mean he doesn't own an I Pad, I watch, Smart TV's etc etc. No, not at all...
While your statement above is true... Many of us car hobbyist types have the need to build, restore, maintain and drive old cars of all types... That in itself IS, in alot of ways, bringing back the past. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. Not everyone had a turmoil filled past. They had many good memories and things like cruising in a fully restored 57 Chevy help to relive some of those good times.... not to mention thats just cool...
Of course no one is wanting to bring back Polio and Smallpox.... thats just silly... BUT, theres tons of guys and girls who can jump in an old car, restored or a work in progress and slip back in time for a while... That doesnt make them stupid, behind the times, in denial of progress or anything... It brings them happiness.... that is priceless and worth every dime and minute spent on it.
08-20-2017, 12:06 AM
#117
Team Owner
While your statement above is true... Many of us car hobbyist types have the need to build, restore, maintain and drive old cars of all types... That in itself IS, in alot of ways, bringing back the past. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. Not everyone had a turmoil filled past. They had many good memories and things like cruising in a fully restored 57 Chevy help to relive some of those good times.... not to mention thats just cool...
Of course no one is wanting to bring back Polio and Smallpox.... thats just silly... BUT, theres tons of guys and girls who can jump in an old car, restored or a work in progress and slip back in time for a while... That doesnt make them stupid, behind the times, in denial of progress or anything... It brings them happiness.... that is priceless and worth every dime and minute spent on it.
Of course no one is wanting to bring back Polio and Smallpox.... thats just silly... BUT, theres tons of guys and girls who can jump in an old car, restored or a work in progress and slip back in time for a while... That doesnt make them stupid, behind the times, in denial of progress or anything... It brings them happiness.... that is priceless and worth every dime and minute spent on it.
Slipped into some of those cars myself. While I complement the owner since it is the polite thing to do, if truth be said, it is just another vehicle for me