Tom400CFI

This^^^ too! But he is a contrarian and a master of polemics.



X2. :

GREGGPENN

You mean while I just did my BEST impression of you? I guess that's one plus in your favor....You recognize (in my impression of you) that you are being an [in YOUR WORDS] an idiot.

Remember my suggestion to figure out why you keep pissing people off? Any chance you spent 2 seconds on that thought? Any chance you actually saw a couple of MAJOR points about the way YOU post in my satirical previous post? Any chance you aren't just smart enough to realize the IDIOCY in the: "full-of-themselves", "know-it-all", pie-in-the-sky, 3-yr-dreamer approach to your posting....but are smart enough to see the STRONG HINT dude?

You seem to THINK you're smart. Come on man...Figure it out! Need more hints about who the "full-of-himself" poster is? You know....the one that "bombards" the rest of us with crap, stupid links, ridiculous ideas, and "wisdom" that's priceless?

If you NEED more hints, here's ANOTHER clue....

How about this clue?....
In less than 1 wk since my suggestion for self-reflection, you pissed 2-3 more people off. Are you really so daft that you think you're the "normal" one? Are you so DENSE that you think any/all pushback (from ALL THE FORUMS YOU'VE VISITED) is always the OTHER guy?

x3 on the subject of study.

Space387

No Phoenix you didn't answer my 3 requests at all. You danced around any answer to torque. And btw the lt1 has a peak tq number within your range it just doesn't fall off yielding guess what HP.

you mentioned you want efficiency what is this value compared to where are you now. The LT1 was rated higher than the L98 at 17city 26 highway to start with. How much more efficient are you shooting for. And for the love of god remember it is federally illegal to run a fuel not approved for road use on public roads.

Finally what state emissions are you confirming to? If California than trash the whole idea because none of this is allowed without an emissions stamp at the tune of 100's of thousands.

Phoenix'97

I can't give you a definite torque number! The only information I can give you is that I seek as much low end and mid-range torque that a combination of camshaft, TPI intake, Dart Pro 1 180cc heads, and custom long tube headers optimized for lower end torque, can give my LT1. How the hell do I give you a solid number from this? I can't answer your question the way you want me to answer it so pretend to be my engine builder and get a gist of what I am looking for out of a very mild build geared for nothing more than street driving. I don't care about horsepower numbers when I won't be operating above, AT MOST, 5000 RPM!


The LT1 lacks lower end torque which forces me to use fifth gear for my overdrive needs on the highway. I finally realized that I can't use my sixth gear and maintain fuel efficiency. My mileage actually increased going 60 mph at 2100 RPM with full vacuum in fifth gear. So, every time I am accelerating from a dead stop, I am burning more fuel to get going to achieve the minimal optimal torque at over 2000 RPM with my current set-up. So, with all due respect, the rating you are giving is a best-guess estimate when in reality my city mileage is around 15 mpg and my highway mileage has been lingering around 17 mpg combined with city. If you check out the EPA fuel mileage site and compare all the TPI corvettes to the LT1 corvettes, you will notice they have, for the most part, the same mileage ratings. This can't be a coincidence! Lower torque off idle is more fuel efficient, this is why tow cams can offer a marginal increase in mileage for a car, and this is why the stock L98 camshaft is a tow cam by the very definition! The LT1 stock camshaft is not a tow cam and it badly needs more lower end torque, that which I seek from the TPI L98.


Iso-Butanol is EPA approved. I am not the least bit concerned about violating federal laws based on the information I have read from below. Enough with the scare tactics and bull crap!

https://www.epa.gov/renewable-fuel-s...ernative-fuels

https://www.epa.gov/renewable-fuel-standard-program

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/laws/IR/US

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/6374


New York, but I am volunteering to use California catalytic converters on my car. I do care about emissions which is why I am pushing Iso-Butanol.

Kevova

Your butanol may become a fuel additive in place of ethanol, but it has a lower octane rating than ethanol or methanol. Which is a real problem. The original reason ethanol was added was it was a inexpensive way to boost the octane of unleaded gasoline ,when the the EPA ban the use of different additives previously used . You don't want 5k you want 3k, in the beginning you were bothered about climbing hills in 6th and needing to apply more throttle or down shifting. You want an lt1 with the characteristics of a diesel.

64Scout

Have you dyno'd your car to see what it is making now?

pologreen1

Penix: "Dear Santa, this year I have been a good little penix. I spent much time in schools, in forums being schooled, and have learned about iso propal butane fuels in my quest to change the firebird's TQ numbers.

"Santa please have the elves back at the workshop make me a LTR intake set up for my '97 LT1 car that I have had for 10 years and now decided to be on the quest for more TQ with."

"Also; Santa please keep in mind this TQ monster drives in the snow and you know all about that I bet!!!"

"Santa, I'm not asking for a race car... I'm just asking for my LTR intake to make peak TQ at 2500-3000RPM that fits under my hood scoop, and works with my 3.42 gears / 6 spd, and get 30mph in city traffic run on the iso fuels."

"Thank you Santa, and remember this is a legitimate reQUEST!"

Tom400CFI

Get a load of ^^This^^ horse ****!! How would one even begin responding to that massive pile of misinformed cow dung?

I will say this though:
1. An LT1 in a 3400 lb car with a 3.45 gear can climb virtually ANY hill on virtually ANY highway. So if yours can't, there is something wrong with it and you should get it fixed.
2. Coincidence that the L98 and LT1 have similar EPA ratings? SHOCKING! Same car, same weights, same gear ratios (close), same aero...Can you imagine?? But the LT1 is more advanced and does get better milage. This can't be a coincidence!
3. If your car can't get as good mileage in 6th as 5th, there is something wrong with it and you should get it fixed.

I've said it like 4 times now; I think that you should...
"This has been Closer Look!"

.

Space387

to ask you for an exact number is very improper as none of us can look at a set of parts and go " that will give you exactly another 326Lb-ft of torque at exactly 2816RPM". To get an idea are you looking to see close to 350lb-ft ( stock L98) 400-450, or 6000lb ft is what I asked for. Giving a reference of your goal is very appropriate and possible. Also get past your self set RPM limit, it is useless. If you don't want to see 5k DONT HOLD THE SKINNY PEDAL THAT LONG. Once again you take half the though I am trying to convey and spew garbage. You have a full parts list, buy them build it and show us how this is going to be the magic perfect engine.


Have you ever looked at the engine telemetry? How can you be so sure that by spinning the engine 33% faster you are getting better efficiency aside from the MAP reading? Do you understand why higher compression engines run better than lower compression worn out engines? It has nothing to do with the vacuum and everything to do with the chamber pressure at the time of ignition. A lower MAP reading( greater vacuum) is reducing the chamber pressure there fore reducing the efficiency at which any hydrocarbon burns. Side note you even said you get better mileage at 2k than 1500. Thus eliminating the 6th gear from practical use. by swapping to a 4.10 will put you cruising RIGHT THERE AT 60MPH. Why is this such an issue now? 4.10 rear and a cam based on the L98 and you will have a perfect car for your needs.

Not a scare tactic a plea for rational thinking from you. Now you are playing with a very similar issue is NY as Cali. I grew up on Long Island so I had to deal with it too. You are required to run the ORIGINAL emissions equipment that came with the car. You may pass a sniffer but the visual showing heavy modification will fail you. There have been a few of my friends who went from a single cat federal emissions to dual updated cats and had to return to the original system or an approved replacement, hence the CARB stamp I mentioned.

Phoenix'97

Since I am trying to get my LT1 to act like a TPI L98 in terms of off idle to peak torque, yes, however since this is an LT1 with higher compression, and I plan on using a custom grind camshaft, paired with modifications to the TPI intake, that curve may peak at 400 but it would be nice to have 325 or 350 ft-lbs of torque off idle, to address the problem with being unable to use my sixth gear overdrive for highway use, since the LT1 makes 325 ft-lbs of torque around 2000 RPM. This is the goal to meet.


You keep talking to me in your condescending manner and I will be convinced you are full of it. Don't insult me as though I don't know how to drive my car. I can perfectly time when I need to let off the accelerator for launches at a green light before I zip past the speed limit and become a painted target for a nearby patrol car on speed enforcement duty. This is why I let off at 5000 RPM! I can't make much use of RPM power beyond it and even then, what is so impressive about an extra 1000 or 2000 RPM when it is fun to up-shift and continue until I can't go any faster? This is why I am seeking a torque curve shift on my LT1 and to make use of the TPI intake!


I have said this again, and AGAIN, I am not swapping my gear ratio to a lower 4.10 setting! I don't want my car operating at those higher RPM ranges when I am cruising around town! With my current set-up this might be okay for highway mileage but it will ruin my city mileage and I will not have that! Instead of maintaining the set-up of my stock camshaft and swapping to a lower gear ratio, I am opting to shift my torque curve from higher RPM to lower and mid-range RPM so as to keep my current 3.23 gear ratio. Didn't TPI L98 cars run much higher gear ratios from the factory because they produced more lower end and mid-range torque than later LT1 cars? This is the same goal behind my build.


I have not heard anything like that out of New York. As far as I know, as long as you are running original emissions devices and your car is not producing more emissions pollution than it was designed for, you will pass inspection. Some of the mechanics have heavily modified cars and they must be running long tube headers, but they pass inspection each year so something doesn't add up!

Space387

1. Condescending is telling you I feel you are an idiot, I dont feel you are an idiot just that you may want to open up to other options when people with decades of experience are trying to give you information and all you do is spit it back at them and deny it. Assertive( how I'm trying to be) is describing directly how to fix a very simple problem you are over looking.
2. Your gearing issue. By changing to a 4.10 if you never exceed 55MPH as no road in New York does to my knowledge except maybe parts of I95 you will ride a higher gear for the same speed and same RPM. This is to allow you to use your 6 speed instead of self regulating to a 5 speed. If you don't want that hassle I have a T5 you can swap in giving you the same 5th gear ratio without the added weight and rotating mass of the larger T56 saving you fuel and actually accelerating your launches.
First you said you have a 3.42 then you have a 3.23 which is it? If your car was originally an M6 car its a 3.42 if you have not changed it. To answer your gearing question on the Corvettes no there was no change in gears from the L98 to LT1. Both ran a 3.33 with the M6 or a 2.59 on the A4

Count your blessings you have a T56 as it gives you flexibility to select the best gear ratio for that point in time and the wide spread of ratios allows for a wide choice of rear gear sets without making your car a gas guzzler.

We are pushing the gears and cam option as they WILL get you the results you want without spending thousands on parts that MAY get you what you want, or may fight each other and make the car suffer down low and up top. I have personally seen guys build a car buy the "best" heads, cam, intake, rockers, valve springs, pistons, headers and when it was put together this $10k LT1 couldn't make more than 400HP and was even lower on torque.

A final point is the nature of gasoline and its inherent burn times. Gasoline has a very rapid burning flame front that is accelerated by a higher compression. This will require a very short spark advance, a lot of fuel or very low chamber pressure to balance at slow speeds. All three of these decrease the efficiency of burn and will produce higher Co2 Nox and O3 outputs. Have you drove any of the new fuel efficient non hybrid cars? They are all high strung, high spinning I4 engines that cruise at 3k and under normal driving conditions will see 5k without trying. My point is do not assume you are the only one who has looked for the answer to fuel savings, all the major manufactures have and have put millions of dollars to find slow is not the best answer for gasoline. You said it your self the LT1 is not as efficient at 1500 as it is at 2000rpm. It has more to do with the fuel you run than the design of the air path

84 4+3

I was young when we lived on long island but I remember my dad having to get fake inspection stickers for his truck. And that had cats still too. I don't know how it is now though.

You should mate the tpi tubes to a crossfire base. The small runner on the base and the long tubes on the upper plenum will mechanically limit you to ~4500 And create stupid low end torque from the tiny ports. That'd be a lot of custom work though. (Just saying.)

billschroeder5842

My wife makes me watch "Real Housewives of ... what ever."

This is far more entertaining.

I'm waiting for someone to accuse the other of sleeping around, buying a knock off purse then throwing a drink on the other and yelling "bitch!!"

You all go girls!

Tom400CFI

Super! You've already met your goal then! A properly running LT1 has more than enough torque to use 6th gear under almost any highway use condition.




Based on what I've read, you definitely do not know how to drive your car. OR...something is quite wrong with your LT1.




Then learn how to drive...and upshift.



Here is (one area) where you've gone awry; the L98 cars do not make more low end tq than the later LT1 cars. The later LT1 cars make more low end tq than the L98 cars. I've shown you that many, many times. They both produce the same peak tq in their midranges -each engine having a "mid range" separated by about 700 RPM or so.

Space387

Tom in his defence the 97 f-body LT1 is rated at 285hp @5200. 330lbft @ 2900 give or take a few. So he is down 20lbft from the L98 corvette. Firebirds have always had that small deficit mainly due to exhaust routing. With that being said the L98 doesn't peak much lower and you are 100% right lacks the off idle grunt.

pologreen1

I searched 97 lt1 firebird stock dyno vids... Funny thing is the dynos show the put out more than rated on vids I seen.

20hp anr or TQ is not something we can feel translated through a large machine.

Space387

Just giving the factory numbers. Like I said before my *** says the LT1 firebird is faster than the L98 corvette from a stop to highway speeds. Haven't been able to open up the corvette last that yet.

Phoenix'97

Condescending has a more formal definition, showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others. I am not spitting information back at you or denying it, it is just that I have a very specific idea of how I want my motor to perform and I do not want to drive around in higher RPM when I prefer to cruise around town in the lower RPM range that I do, 1000 to 1500 RPM in the city and 1500 RPM up to 2000 RPM if necessary in sixth gear for 60 - 70 mph speeds. Since I have established that my motor needs more lower end torque production at idle to 1500 RPM, some 50 ft.lbs of more torque generation, I would prefer to focus on the camshaft as opposed to settling with driving around at higher RPM. Since I am going to the trouble of altering my motor, I am also trying to bump up the "fun" factor, which is why I am looking at a custom grind that mimics the performance of the ZZ4 camshaft, but is simply a performance tow/mileage camshaft with a lobe separation of 114 instead of the ZZ4 112. Lloyd Elliot has a "sleeper cam" that may be close to the specifications that I seek only the lift numbers need to be adjusted and especially if I am still set on using a TPI intake.

I will run into problems using a 4.10 gear ratio for city driving. I like to keep my RPM low which means I am now speed shifting into lower gears to give me that low RPM idle I enjoy. I won't be happy with it, I can already tell. Furthermore, I am not going to play games with swapping my T56 for a T5. As you said, the T56 gives me more flexibility, and it does, but my current set-up paired with my driving style are not compatible...


I am only seeking out a build that works with my factory 3.42 gears. Yeah, I made a typo when I was thinking 3.23 but the rear axle ratio is 3.42. So, again, I have no desire to change the gearing so I need to figure out how to build the motor to work with the stock gearing. Since I am so gung-ho about the TPI intake, I am fully aware that I am sacrificing higher end horsepower but the trade-off for higher end horsepower is a bump in lower end to mid-range torque, adding to my "fun" factor when I choose to enjoy it.

The fuel I currently run is pure gasoline, and pure gasoline would have been what the LT1 was likely tested with before it went into production. With regards to the Iso-Butanol I will be experimenting with it before this build, it will likely get consumed more than the gasoline I am currently using but as long as it proves itself as a direct replacement, all I need to do is have the motor built for this new fuel I am using, and that includes increasing compression to get the most of out the fuel and tuning the built motor for the fuel.

Tom400CFI

That's a good point, but to be apples to apples, the '92 5.7 TPI in the F-bod made 240 bhp at 4400/340 lb-ft @ 3200 rpm...so I guess the LT1 in the F-bod gave up 10 lbs at the peaks.

Tom400CFI

You're NEVER going to get 50 lbs at "idle to 1500 RPM" with a cam. NEVER. But, ya might with a stroker that someone suggested 4 threads ago.



Say...WHAT!? You can keep RPM low in the city -with gears mind you- by SHIFTING.



I don't think your driving style is compatible with any gas engine. You need a diesel. You've been told that, too. Who said anything about a T5?

I think Penix may have blocked me. He didn't like that I called out his story-changing BS in earlier posts.


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