pologreen1

OP be prepared to be disappointed unless you are one of those placebo people.

Please answer this and I will concede here.

1. Do you understand the MR/LT1 intake makes more power and has a better linear torque curve and the tpi basically has a peak torque that is with in the same realm of SOTP meter betweem both intakes?

2. Are you understanding there is some science and research behind intake designs, not just runner length?

Tom400CFI

Everyone got that? What could be more clear or concise, than that?



In that case, I suggest that you stop posting on forums...get out to the garage and start chopping, welding and wrench spinning!

pologreen1

I think I do now. I think what he wants is less performance so he can handle the car more like the v6 he was more comfortable with.

I think he likes to have little power up until 3,000rpm and then hold it at 3,000 rpm for the 15ftlbs more peak torque over the lt1 at 3,000 rpm and then have the power fall right off after 3,000 rpm unlike the lt1 that will keep pulling.

I'm only going by my experiences , other's expressed experiences, and your dyno graph comparison sheet you posted.

Seems 3,000 rpm is a very efficient RPM to be at all the time having all that POWAH, because according to the posted graph the lt1 would use less energy to get the car moving to the 3,000 rpm he craves.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


All kidding aside, some people trolling is fun. If you are not trolling I feel sorry for you. This attitude you have is not one that creates success UNLESS you are willing to listen, try and learn.

If you are in college for real, which I doubt unless you lost a job since I figure you must be around 30 years old , you have persistence, determination, etc, but you lack wisdom not just knowledge.

The graph shows you intake will be crap all over the board except 3,000 rpm if you can''t read it. Also if you mod the intake it probably won't get better either.

Just do it.

Like Tom said get an intake start chopping it up. They are a dime a dozen since they are garbage, and the world needs proof that an l98 intake can be drilled, dizzy hole plugged, and fitted to an lt1 winter beater.

GREGGPENN

You know, Tom...at the risk of regretting it (with regard to Mr. Hell Bent), that graph isn't representative of JUST the TPI vs the LT1 intake. Match compression and repost IF you really insist on using that graph to compare intakes ONLY.

I posted this recently and it was ignored. It's why I posted a link to the TPI shootout WHERE INTAKES ONLY WERE SWAPPED FOR COMPARISON.

I'm fine seeing this chart when comparing the complete (LT1 vs L98) engine packages. It's fake news, misleading, and something I consider below your expertise to post for the point being made.

If I were to be TOTALLY honest, we RARELY see dynos showing us what's going on in the first 1k rpms....which means response/performance between the two intakes BELOW 2.5k rpms is in question.

My observation BEFORE modifying my 350 6spd was the setup delivered PLENTY of TORQUE in 1st and most of 2nd gear. For our wingnut's purpose, that completely satisfy's what he THINKS he wants. IMO, that basic premise provides some evidence for "trolling". Ironically, I upgraded MY car for a couple of reasons. I wanted performance to match appearance (the body is customized). The other reason was disappointment in THIRD gear...and even highway passing.

I thought I'd be happy with 100 more HP and torque over stock. For the most part that's been true. The Top-end Performance Inhibitor (TPI) keeps me from flirting with 90-100mph passing bursts (which might actually happen IF I DID have the power). The mid-range "boost" just plain exceeded my expectations...while returning the "nostalgia" of a big-block car. In that regard, there are LOTS of positives from my torque-focused build.

I'm sure you saw my comparison of a stock ZR1 vs mine. Though the ZR1 wins the HP contest, my midrange provides the "taste" of a much more powerful car than a C4 ZR1. In 1/4m racing, it's mostly worthless and I might lose that race. For street driving however, I can assure you, it's quite enjoyable. Would you "scoff" at a 1968 427 in YOUR Corvette?

FWIW....When I posted that L98's have a bit less idle/off-idle response (due to the "column" weight/friction of a long tube), I'm repeating something I learned from one of the guys at TPIS. IIRC, I'd read something about why they didn't really like building high-compression builds with TPIs. I called to ask why -- considering the statement didn't really make sense. They didn't really give a reason other than the one mentioned. Since then I've never seen a true intake-only comparison that demonstrates what they were talking about. I've only given a small bit of consideration to the statement because I've never been head-over-heels happy with the SPEED/RESPONSIVENESS with my off-idle acceleration enrichment. And that may be because I haven't looked hard enough at overall enrichment vs rpm enrichment.

ghoastrider1

again, put a diesel in it

Phoenix'97

As far as I am concerned,

I will research what I have to, having been given all the advice and recommendations that I have that are applicable for what I want to do with my motor and how I feel I can better improve upon it. GREGGPENN, thank you for letting me know that SLP runners are a tad shorter in length than stock TPI runners and in turn their different flow rate and harmonics may not suit what I am trying to build for my car. This is where the more expensive TPIS runners with a stock manifold base, may suit the intake better, if I shall go this route. Again, a simple camshaft swap, something on the lines of a Crane 227, better flowing heads, valve train upgrade, and custom long headers for the RPM range may be all I need. Or, combine that with the TPI intake, after the research is done. For what I want, I may need to talk to Ken at First, I need to research and there is plenty of time, on-and-off, to do so.

Thank you "grumpyvette"
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...mponents.1509/

Tom400CFI

Hey Pheonix, Greggpenn isn't the only one who pointed out the SLP runner length. Reading comprehension. :thumbsup:




Yeah, I know man...I agree with you. The point of the graph (in that post) was to show that the TPI's "V-Tec, yo", is occurring right around 3k and no where else...since the OP was pontificating about LOW to mid.


To your point (and the OP has made this assumption too), with the LT1's compression, take the TPI curve and move it up 10 or 15 (generous) lbs and overlay it on the LT1's. Now what do you have? About same tq curve as the LT1 up to ~2500, then a little bonus "squirt" from 25-35...and then the same plummet. So is the OP going to get is LOW to mid from intake only? No, he's not. He'll be at ABOUT the same point he is now w/the LT1 intake in the range that he claims he does all his driving in...and certainly the range that he'd be operating in, when on the highway in 6th, climbing hills. Excuse me; "mild inclines" and "steep inclines" (apparently, they're not called "hills").

Does that make sense? I only "ignored it earlier b/c it doesn't really matter for the purpose of this thread or this OP that we've got going on here. But you make good, legitimate points, so I thought I'd comment TO YOU...not FOR HIM.

If the guy wants an off-idle experience, and a 6th gear "incline" climber...he needs stroke and/or gear....just like you and many others have said. Or that diesel that Ghostrider1 advised.


EDIT: FYI, when ever I chassis dyno my cars, I start at idle/~500 RPM so I can get a clean 1000 to red line. You don't see the low dyno data mostly...b/c people simply don't start the pull that low. The OEM does b/c it's necessary for them to have that data as part of their development.

Phoenix'97

Pardon me for not giving proper credit where it is so deeply sought after, word for word.



Well, in all fairness, this graph leaves out plenty of information, such as camshaft choice. This graph does not represent how an LT1 with it's higher compression than the L98 (which we have already addressed), will behave with a custom grind tow/mileage camshaft that targets off-idle torque and attempts to maintain that torque curve up to 5000 RPM, where my power production needs will effectively end for daily city driving. Then, the exhaust set-up, the heads matched to the capability of the intake manifold and runners, and even the air box set-up, using an SLP lid with combined Ram-air passage and bottom feeder cold air duct.

You are basing all of your opinions on a graph tailored to different vehicles with different set-ups. Everything becomes theoretical and hypothetical when we try to narrow down how my LT1 motor will behave if I put a TPI style intake on it. Again, for my power production demands and no interest in higher end torque production, you must understand my desire to have the TPI intake.



The right camshaft will address the additional torque I seek from 1000 to 2500 RPM for my 6th gear overdrive experience. The car will always need to be downshifted when the incline is too great, such as a hill, but my car should not be losing speed and losing vacuum on minor inclines in 6th gear. If you were to drive my car for a week you would better understand what I am trying to explain in words. You can feel the motor has insufficient torque. I understand that the TPI intake won't be the cure for this problem but the TPI intake is better optimized for the RPM band my car spends it's time in, and for the RPM band I have my "fun" in. The LT1 intake is a racing intake, nothing more.

Does everybody understand my point of view here and the logic with why I want a TPI intake on my motor?

pologreen1

yeah you have no clue on the basics of car designs.

6th gear is for HWY only. you are putting lots of stress on things that is for sure.

If you do want to use 6th more you HAVE to go with 4.11 gears. (which is perfect for you current combo.

I took this all as a joke. For your sake I hope it is. If not. PLEASE re read all this stuff and more to learn about your car and how and why it works as it does before you think you can improve it.

aklim

We don't do Mission Impossible, crazy or magic. That much we understand.

aklim

6 gear is for highway? OMG!! Whoda thunk it? I always thought that a higher numerical ratio means faster I accelerate?

Tom400CFI

Not looking for accolades...just that you saw, read....and comprehended the info given. Which seems doubtful.





Absolutely wrong. The engines are stock '91 L98, '92 LT1 and '93 LT1. We know what camshafts came in each of those engines. They are all very similar in specs and not causing a meaningful difference to "low RPM tq".



Addressed in my response to Greggpenn.


Of course the graph doesn't address dream-land combos...it addresses real & stock ones. Doesn't matter though, b/c (pay close attention now!) the POINT of the graph was to illustrate what how the TPI works. The graph illustrates how the TPI doesn't boost tq in the RPM that you've repeatedly claimed that you want a boost. It boosts tq squarely in the MID range -above the RPM numbers that you've thrown around and well above the RPM you're at on the highway. That is what the graph shows and that's what it was intended to show in my post (and I said that -comprehension, again?).



^Uneducated minutia.
1. I am most certainly NOT basing my opinion on a graph. I am basing it on the mathematical calc's that anyone can do, that show clearly what RPM range the TPI "works" in. Around 3000 RPM. Not in the "low" end...not in the "high end". I posted the graph so the lay person (you) can SEE WITH YOUR EYEBALLS, how the TPI philosophy manifests itself; a slight boost in the 3000 RPM area. Not the low end. The graph did'nt "teach" me anything...I learned how TPI works with math. The graph is for your benefit, so that you can "SEE" how it works.
2. YOU must understand that a TPI intake won't boost your tq in the "low" end. Your eyeballs can see that in the graph I posted -even with the added LT1 compression. I "get" what you want...you need to "get" that the TPI won't give you that.




Whoa! What's going on here, now?? Are you saying that an incline is the same as a hill?? This is really weird, because earlier....
LOL. That's all I can say. LOL.






That's why Amotoxracer and I both tried to tell you that something is likely wrong with your current engine. You're right; it shouldn't do that. To be accurate, it most definitely WILL "lose" vacuum...but it should maintain speed, no problem.



Sure it is. That's why it was offered in Buick's and Caprice's. You know...race cars.



Oh yeah. Everyone here is on board. We all definitely WANT to see you do this. I know I do.

aklim

[QUOTE=Tom400CFI;1595877969Sure it is. That's why it was offered in Buick's and Caprice's. You know...race cars.

Oh yeah. Everyone here is on board. We all definitely WANT to see you do this. I know I do.[/QUOTE]

With some Nawaz it will be a race car especially downhill if the other car throws a rod.

Just so we understand each other
What is the definition of "do this" since we know it can be done physically if enough hacking is done or money spent. Must it do what he wants to qualify too? First one is relatively easy. 2nd part, we'll.......

PatternDayTrader

In my mind its where he makes some additional clearance with the sawzall around the cowl panel. He could do this today. Ill take him more seriously if he does.

aklim

It would be a step forward in the direction he claims he wants to do. A step back in common sense though

PatternDayTrader

Seems to be the theme of this entire thread.

Phoenix'97

Dude, I ONLY use sixth gear for highway when my motor can handle it. Now you are going to seriously insult me acting as if I drive around town in sixth gear. You think I don't know the feeling of lugging the motor? Oh yeah, your comments are intended to incite a response from me so, in other words, a joke.

I can tell you this, with a 4.11 gear ratio in the axle with my sixth gear, I will be over 2000 RPM going 55 mph and higher doing 65 and 70 mph! What you claim is the "perfect combo" is not very fuel efficient for an overdrive gear intended to maximize fuel economy.

I am not the one with the reading problem, you all are pushing higher RPM performance mods on a car used for daily driving ONLY. The rear axle ratio will remain stock and the stock LT1 intake will most likely be converted over to the TPI.

Tom400CFI

^Totally. Pheonix, get off the key board...get to work!

pologreen1

That statement was to penix not you.

I don't daily drive it, but I could. the sacrifice, is MPG, and the noise bothering others.

BUT...Now that we have you using some common sense and trying to demonstrate it. Please answer why you would build a "daily driver"
out of a 6 speed 'sports car' for driving in the snow / seasons, set limits on what mods you will do to make the car operate better, plan on running out of the ordinary fuels in it, try to make it get better fuel mileage.

You are the one doing everything *** backwards here.

If you can't afford a truck or real daily driver you should not have a fun car and try to make it work. It's dangerous to you , and others. The other BS is just that, OR move!

i'll give you 50ftlb of tq as a hypothetical, it won't do jack for what you think it will. you have to be in that power band to use it, you don't know where you are going to make unless you create the intake to do so.

64Scout

I wish I had gotten in on this on page one, but maybe it's better that I didn't.

Phoenix, I don't know how old you are or how much experience you have with engines, but since you don't want to listen to others who have btdt, please continue with this project and post back your build and results.