OK my .02c... 1. I will never (except warranty) take a car to a dealer ship to have work done on it. Alot of the time the dealers them selves are the cause of the shoddy work that takes place in their shop. 2. Work on it your self or take it to a private shop preferably one that specializes in Vette work. 3. THE CHEVY V8 has ruled auto racing for 50 YEARS! 4. I hate Japenese (crap) cars :U In my fifty years I've worked on plenty I think they are a pain in the butt. 5. Everything today is owned by multinational corporations and NO THEY DON"T CARE. 6. I LOVE VETTES! The best bang for the buck period. :steering:

 

Ooohh...I'm tingling...you've seen and ridden in the car...that makes you an expert. (that's called "sarcasm")

Well...I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night...so I guess I'm an expert too.

Hate to tell you...I've seen, ridden and drove an NSX...and they are a nice car...but for $85,000 (what did a Vette cost...oh ya, $35K) I'd hope it's more refined. Was it faster...nope....handled on the skid pad better...nope...so you would have paid an additional $50K for a more refined ride and a nice build.

Talk to your NSX friend and ask how much it costs to fix the car...come on...lets look at maintenance costs on both cars and availability of parts (no, I'm not talking "we can get you one in a week").

But, that wasn't the point I was making...we've got a someone complaining that his sports car that's 13 years old breaks...and comparing it to passenger cars for reliability...that's the point!

As far as your Mitsosushi goes...whatever floats your boat...I'll still put my 96 up against it for realiability when you start taking that SUV offroad...and guess what...I've replaced pads, fluids, normal maintenance items on my '96 and THAT'S IT....wanna see the bills?

But I guess you want to compare a daily driver to a sports car again...take that SUV of yours off-road each weekend (what they claim it was made for) and we'll see how it does in reliability against my car I run much harder at the track.

 

Honda and Toyota don't use UAW workers. If you do some research, they (the unions) had a big fit about it a couple of years ago. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. As for your point about a car having that many miles and needing so little maintenance, my 87 Pontiac Firebird (with 135,XXX miles)ran like a top till an uninsured teenage punk rearended me

 

Yes I am. If you knew the way I drive my car every day, autocrossed it every chance I get and mod it, you would wonder why is wasn't part of a wrecking yard already. :D

 

This is simple. If you don't like Vettes get the F--- off the forum. Bunch of rice loven sons -of -beaches. :boxing

 

jimb500, I missed the Lexus fad and went with Mercedes. The difference between Lexus and Mercedes is striking.
Rust buckets from the 50's 60's and 70' I missed that too I grew up in Los Angeles Cal, no rust. I've owned over 300 cars, 95% American, 5% european, and 1 Japanese it broke. 10 motorcycles 9 Harleys 1 Honda and it was a pain to keep running.

I've been a gearhead since birth. I work on cars everyday. Fords and VW's.
In 1980 I bought a 1951 Cadillac Coupe Deville, no rust drove it every where, longest trip was 1000 miles no problems and I got 22 mpg.

i've owned Corvettes since the 60's and have never had a break down with any of them. Never had a break down with 300 American cars. My one experience with a Datsun 240z was a break down on the hiway.

Japan shows me nothing but boring little carz. If they were better and thier not I wouldn't buy them anyway. I believe in this country and its people.
I'll stand behind America till I can stand no more.

The Japanese wont buy American they're patriots. They believe in thier country and support it 100%.
I only wish I could say that about this country.

Ps. What do the mechanics at the Japanese dealerships do all day?

 

Look folks, GM build quality on the whole tends to be sub-standard. Their quality control is shameful. Just look at the different variations of problems (paint, for example) on any C4 or C5 Corvette. If you think GM builds a quality car then you are really just fooling yourself.

I love my Corvette. It's the most bang for the buck you can get in a sportscar, period. I will probably always own some model year Corvette. But take away the performance and styling, and it's a piece of poopie. Anyone ever taken apart the interior on a Corvette? It looks like it was put together by sophomore engineering students. How many of you have cars that don't rattle or creak (and haven't done any improvements yourself)? Probably very few. Go through the forum and look at all of the problems people have with stuff malfunctioning, breaking, or just not performing the way the part should. And a lot of these problems are on pampered, low-mileage cars!

It's obvious GM put all of it's money into the engine and chassis of the Corvette and left the rest to the new engineering grads who are building the Cavalier. If you just want to talk about engine and chassis, fine. I'll agree 100% that the Japanese just don't compare, even with their newer cars (except for the Supra). But remember how much these Corvettes sold for? A lot of money. There is no excuse for the problems these cars have considering the amount of money GM asks for them. Likewise there is no way that I would buy a new Corvette given my past experience with them. I'm plenty happy to let them depreciate to the point that all the build quality issues are no longer so hard to swallow. But let me say that if I paid $50k for a new Corvette today and had even a quarter of the problems those guys are having over in the C5 forum, I would be so mad that I'd probably swear off GM products forever.

And if you want to say that Honda and Toyota products from the early 90's are junk compared to a Corvette from the early 90's, well, I'd beg to differ. First of all, I guarantee you no one pampers a Honda or Toyota like a Corvette. Most of the Hondas and Toyotas are treated like crap, never taken care of, lucky to get an oil change once a year. Corvettes are babied like some rare gem. But take one of those ragged out Hondas or Toyotas today and compare it to your babied Corvette and I'll bet you'd be surprised at how much better they've held together. Remember, these are cars that have probably had ZERO preventative maintenance. Yet most of them don't rattle, haven't had costly engine parts replaced, and still have all of their electronic components functioning properly. Let's face it, in the realm of build quality the Japanese put us to shame. I just wish GM cared enough and had enough pride in it's product to realize this. But as long as we have "Big Volume" Chevy dealers all over the country and people still buy SUVs and Trucks, GM just doesn't give a damn.

Ok, flame away.

 

No Flamer from me! The bottom line with GM and any other major American Corporation is, The only thing they care about is the BOTTOM LINE and how much the Fat Cats at the top make! :yesnod:

But afterall "The Corvette" is an American Institution! :flag

 

My problem is finding an "American" car. Remember when Ford and Mazda badged the MX6 and the Probe? Could have just as easy been the other way around.

They love taking advantage of patriotism when it suits their purpose. Do you see our leaders in Washington encouraging us to buy American? I don't. Now why do you suppose that is?

Could it be because the guys who put up the money for their campaigns make lots of money from foreign companies? Who owes who? And who owns who? Why is it that patriotism is only encouraged on our level, not with the guys running the show?

 

I think that the problem with most of the mechanic at the dealerships or service areas is they pay flat rate or book time not the real time it takes to fix the problem. They charge 2.5 hrs for something and do it in 1 hr that is how they make there money and why our service repair suffers. I know it gives incentive to get work done but I believe the quality suffers badly. I here from upscale owners Bmw,Mercedes,nix,lexis,jaguar and more how GM interior is all plastic I would like to know what they interior is made of. There are allot of good cars out there and they all have there problems and those who think that people don't beat vettes are wrong that is one of most peoples concern when looking at a used one. There are many people that ride them hard and put them away wet. By the way the shop is what charges $70 an hour the mechanic probably makes in the $20's and the shop makes money by using parts changers and pushing cars out the door. Just my 02. :chevy

 

Interesting post.

I really have no problems with GM's build quality. Sure my Vette has a few squeaks but it has 125k miles on a performance tuned suspension that was not designed for a smooth, soft ride.

I have an 86 V6 Firebird with 120k miles and the only problems this car has ever had have been caused by me. It starts like dream down to -45F (yes I have tested this) every time.

The family Buick has 157k miles on it and does not burn or leak a drop of oil. The only major problems are from the WI DOT affinity for salt (gas tank & brake lines) and one worn out inner tie rod. Not bad for just another crummy GM car.

Honestly, do people really drive their 200k mile, problrm-free, econobox Hondas, Toyotas etc. like they drive Vettes? I know that I try to go WOT every chance I get, take turns as fast as I can, stop as short as I can.... My Vette has been there for me for as long as I have had it. I have been on quite a few 1000+ mile trips and have had little fear of the car dieing in me.

After all is said and done, if you have problems with the reliability of your car, fix it or sell it for something better.

 

Thanks to all who posted, a lot of venting went on here! Which is a healthy thing, I think. At least it provided some interesting reading. Funny, how a comment of Toyota's sells forecast in my last paragraph turned into a comparison of Corvette's and Corollas. When it comes down to it, reliability comes from routine maintenance, driving habits, and just simple luck. By definition, anything mechanical is prone to failure. All we (consumers) can do is fix em when they break and try our best to let manufacturers know that we still pay attention to quality.

Oh yea, don't forget to snicker at that whining, little oversized tailpipe, rice burner, as you blow by with all 8's pump'in. :seeya

 

I "DO"! each and every time! :D :thumbs:

 

Being a engineer you might you might be interested in just how bad the new Honda/Acura's are.
Type in Honda/Acura transmission failures. The Honda/Acura transmissions are failing at an "Alarming rate". http://www.petitiononline.com/acura/petition.html
Or Honda ignition failures, http://www.carpoint.msn
Honda has had a "slient recall" going on for its transmissions for quite awhile now.
The transmissions are so bad in the newer Honda's that Honda Motor has extended the warranty on thier new cars. The extended warranty is a move to avoid a mandated recall.

Toyota the samething bad transmissions in the Camry/sienna. The idea that Japanese cars are better than American cars is just plain ignorance.

Don't take my word for it look it up.

 

I've heard about the Honda transmission problem. Also, I've read a lot in recent automotive magazines about Toyota's slipping quality control on the new Corollas and Camrys. On the other hand I'm seeing more concern on the part of these two manufacturer's for the quality of their product than you would if a GM product had similar issues.

Here's the deal. GM knows how to make engines, and that's about it. A Chevy 350 is just about one of the most bullet-proof engines you can buy, as well as the 3.8L V6 they offer. But as far as the overall quality of the cars after 5 or more years, I just think they aren't competitive with the Japanese. Any brand new car can be "nice" for a couple of years. The real test of a car's engineering and build quality is how the car is holding up after 5 or more years of daily, all-conditions driving.

As to the whole "Buy American" idea, well, that's just not applicable anymore. As several people have already mentioned, a large percentage of Japanese cars are being made right here in the US, and many US car parts and assemblies are being made in Canada and Mexico. Look at the Nissan plant in Smyrna, TN. If no one bought the Nissan Altima, most of that town would be unemployed. There is a large Hyundai plant in my state, as well as a Mercedes plant, and a new Toyota plant is currently being built in Huntsville. Those plants are going to utilize good 'ol American labor, and the benefit to the local and regional economies will be enormous.

The bottom line is this. If GM, Ford, or Chrysler make poopie cars and some other manufacturer makes a better product, buy the better product! Half of the reason GM refuses to address their quality issues is because of these diehard "buy American no matter what" customers who continue to purchase crappy vehicles. That's not the way a free market economy works. If someone else makes a better product and GM starts losing their market share, screw 'em! Maybe they'll wake up and try to make better cars.
Thank God for the Japanese, because without them we'd still be driving around in the junk that American car manufacturers dumped on us in the late 70's and early 80's.

By the way, I do not own any foreign cars currently nor have I in the past. I'm just glad there's someone out there to give American automakers some stiff competition so they'll continually try to improve their product.


[Modified by HammerDown, 10:21 AM 10/27/2003]


[Modified by HammerDown, 10:22 AM 10/27/2003]

 

But the point of the post above yours is that Japanese cars aren't all that bullet proof or wonderful.

We've had so much sunshine shoved up our a**es based off a period of when the eastern cars were superior in quality/fit/finish (and they were), but that isn't the case anymore.

Just like Car and Driver always says what a great car a BMW is...give me a handful of BMW owners with cars 4+ years old and I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts I could show you a bunch of owners sick to death of being nickel and dimed to death with their cars.

Unfortunately, perception is too much of peoples reality...

 

I agree with you there. Again, I don't own a new Japanese car and never have, but I've ridden in several from the early to mid 90's, and I test drove a bunch of late 90's Nissan Maximas when I was looking for a daily driver. The late 90's Maxima is a solid car. Yes they have O2 sensor issues, but those cars I drove, even with close to 100,000 miles, felt very solid and well-constructed. But from what I've read the newer models have their share of GM-like problems. Incidentally, the new Altima was the car with the most quality control problems, and it is made in the US. Hmmm...

Yep, that's definitely true. There's no way I'd own a post-'96 model BMW without a warranty. Talk about issues. And expensive issues at that.

The other common stereotype about US cars vs Japanese cars is the whole fuel economy thing. This is one argument that just doesn't hold water anymore. Again, I'll point to the 3.8L V6 in Buicks and Pontiacs. That is a durable engine with great fuel economy. More power and torque than the Japanese 4-cylinders. Heck, even in my LT1 Caprice and Corvette I get close to 28 MPG on the highway. People with Honda Accords are always astonished when they hear that. As far as I'm concerned, you just can't argue in favor of Japanese cars solely for the reason of fuel economy.


[Modified by HammerDown, 11:34 AM 10/27/2003]

 

HammerDown, did you see where the Nissan Altima's airbag was blinding its drivers? Theres a recall even though Nissan denies theres a problem.
There are documented cases where the air bag has caused severe blindness.
Safety is of course another issue with Japanese cars. The much vaunted Toyota Tacoma has the worst roll over record to date.

Your right about the 3.8 V6. Imagine driving your new Acura in rush hour traffic clipping along at 75 when all of a sudden its shifts into 1st gear?
Fun? The owner didn't care for it a bit something about a stain in his pants.

I don't buy Japanese iether. I think thier structural engineering is dismall at best. The 2nd gen Sienna was a death trap. The 3rd gen has transmission problems and something called oil gelling? Whatever that is.

Alabama is booming but have you been to Detroit lately?

 

Ah yes, the Nissan Altima. These were mid 90's models, right? I read quite a bit about the airbag problem. Sounds a bit like the Ford Exploder/Firestone debacle, and GM's little episode with the column lock on C5s. The scary thing about the airbag problem on the Altima is that it would also fail to open in the event of a collision. A guy here at work hit another car head on at 35 mph and the airbag never deployed. That's not good.

It's too bad that you can't get a nice blending of Japanese assembly line quality control and rugged American powertrain engineering. To be fair, the problems that really stand out with American made vehicles are not things that are going to keep you from going down the road. It's the small stuff. But frankly, if I'm going to pay over $30k for some domestic automobile, I shouldn't have to worry about door panels coming off, trim pieces cracking, seats that rock back and forth, window motors that don't work, etc. I mean, come on. That's just simple attention to detail and making sure you are looking at the big picture during the design process.

Here's an example. I know a guy who bought a Chevrolet full-size pickup in the early 90's. It had the good 'ol bulletproof 350 SBC engine. He sold it and bought a Toyota 4Runner. Will he ever buy another American made automobile? No. Want to know why? He said after two years it sounded like the whole interior was going fall off in his lap. Any mechanical problems? No. Ever leave him stranded? No. Would it run for 300k miles with regular maintenance? Probably. Did he care? No. All he will remember about that truck is that it sounded like it was put together by monkeys.

Most people today don't have brand loyalty when it comes to cars. Most people will not put up with the nitpicky stuff even if the powertrain performs flawlessly. They want EVERYTHING to perform flawlessly. The sooner American automakers realize that the general public is no longer going to put up with shoddy build quality despite a strong powertrain, the better.

Also, the sooner GM brings back a $20k rear-wheel drive, V8-powered, performance sedan, the better.

 

"put together by monkeys". Thats funnie. :iagree: