Red Tornado

hey jesse, unhappy is far from the correct term. you didn't give it your best (or well maybe you did), because it was woefully inadequate -- or fraudulent, depending on what attitude one would take. in my case, i'll call it fraudulent because of $4.5k i'll be paying the machine shop and my mechanic because of your utter lack of skill (or fraud).

also, you know damn well the difference in c/r that i gave you at the time of ordering which was estimated based on best info i could get (10.5:1) vs. actual measurements later (11.01:1) IS NOT the reason of the destruction. The timing curve wouldn't have been THAT far different. Your curve was fine - FOR A STOCK CHIP. But the even worse fraud was the STOCK PROGRAMMING FOR FUEL VS. RPM you left in the lower VE table. This is absolutely insane with speed density!!

Having you summoned to court is still being considered.

luvmy92

Are you kidding me? That's what you have to say? How about offering to give their money back? What kind of a business are you running?

You are always talking as if 1/10th is all the difference in the world. 20 hp is around 2/10's on the track... you would be doing cartwheels if you picked up 2/10's.

Regardless, that is not the point. You have many unhappy customers from this site alone, and you stand idly by bad mouthing most of them and doing nothing about it.

Mike

Red Tornado

luvmy92, he WILL NOT offer a dime, period. not only does he avoid any part of responsibility for the damage, he won't even give back a dime on the fraudulent product he provided. i'm not the only one in this regard.....engine damage aside. i'm going to make it my business that all "new eyes" on this board who inquire about mr. azzato will get an eye-opening report out of me.

azzato's days of free-will chip burning for the masses is over.

0ski_dwn_it

Mike I am not bad mouthing anyone. You guys are the ones doing all that. Just like the other thread....which people can read and sift through if they like.....

I see this thread has digressed to something other than it was intended and anything I say, like in the other post, is going to further fuel the fires. So Bash away if it makes you feel better.

The tunes I do for people are always on the conservative side, especially if they do not have WB data or equivalent feedback. There are MANY successful cars out there running my stuff....so if your going to be talking about the bad ones, its only fair to also discuss the good ones too.

Again I am not going to disgress this into a pissing match of tuning techniques. I am sure EVERY tuner out there has their fair share of "unhappy" customers. I know that every one I have ever spoken with has a no-refund policy - just like mine. For the obvious reasons like people getting tunes, copying them, and demanding a refund after the work is done. Not saying that is what they guys intended to do, but it would happen. Its no different than a computer software policy or music. Since I don't like saying here it is, good luck, that is why I offer the free upgrades....many people use this when they continue to upgrade their setups.

Again I would be more than happy to redo either of these guy's tunes at any time in the future, per the original agreement we entered into.

bigcityvette

brad, ski dwn it is not going to do jack regarding destroying your motor. He knows he messed up and to top it off he is not going to refund the money and more importantly pay for your fried motor.

the guy should be ashamed of himself but the obvious stubborness and utter refusal to admit he messed up and trashed your motor is wayyyyyyy beyond disbelief.

I'de take him to court and sue...maybe one of those tv court shows.

He is proabbly thinking to himself "i screwed up that guys motor, but I cand admit it, let alone pay for it because i'll loose face and possibly loose my chip burning business." as he washes down a cold one.

Beach Bum

Brad,

Your conflict with Jesse certainly isn't my business. And I do sympathize with you in regards to your damaged motor.

But, I am curious as to how your motor was damaged from a chip tune ? I didn't see that mentioned in this thread.

If your motor was damaged via a way off tune, this typically would be related to piston damage of some sort. Wayyy too much fuel and of course you could literally wash your rings away, however, with that much unburnt fuel going through the motor, I would think you would notice that very quickly and shut the motor down way before damage is incurred.

If for example, you had way too little fuel and/or too much timing, bad detonation could possibly be the result in which cracked pistons and/or broken rings can happen, however, through my own trial and error with wayyy too much timing at the dragstrip over the years on occasion, you can hear the detonation the second you hit the gas.... of course if that were the case, I would have expected you to get off the gas and park the car and continue working with your tuner. I've had detonation so bad over the years due to timing experimentation that my motor would "literally" sound like a bag of marbles in the chamber the second I put the gas down.... in most cases as soon as I realized my problem, I was off the gas pedal within the same second and went back to the pits and backed off the timing.

Its not easy to break a well built motor with very short spurts of detonation, particurily when you have forged pistons.... even when I ran my stock 160,000 mile L98 short block it saw more detonation than you can believe over many years of hard racing.... but the motor never had a problem....the only thing that went south on me was my timeslips.

I'm just curious.

And once again, I do sympathize.... I know the anticipation of a new engine is like xmas to us adults and then for it to let go has got to be a serious disappointment.

Good Luck !
Beach Bum

Caboboy

Beach, I too am a guy Jesse screwed. When I fired my new 421, it had waaaaay too much timing and fuel. I was lucky enough to shut it down before anything was ruined though. The big problem for me was Jesse just ignored my IMs and e-mails like I dropped off the face of the earth........just ignored me after he got my money! Missing a tune or screwing it up is one thing, lying about the followup service is quite another as far as I'm concerned. It's all about personal integrity and ethical standards. I had to end up writing off the $260 and move on The guy's a crook............. plain and simple.

Red Tornado

Beach, thank you for your kind words.

As you probably well know, there are areas that are already "too hot" in the stock programming for our corvettes. Jesse's timing curve was ok for a stock (or close to stock) setup. I gave him a 10.5:1 c/r estimate, it turned out to be 11:1. Obviously some more timing could have been pulled, but that wasn't the killer. The fuel inputs - or utter lack of them I should say - is what really killed it. It was noticed right away, and I pulled back on the gas. The detonation was audible at about 3,000 rpms under load, which is typical. The damage became evident after only a couple hundred miles of very EASY driving. This is where I take partial responsibility. Jesse takes zero responsibility, thinks that his chip is so close to the mark on the 1rst try, does not provide guidance regarding "verification"/dyno logging (never mentions it), so he's very slow in the draw when it comes to corrections. By the time the damage was done - and knowing how horrid Jesse is with his communications - I was pretty much done with even considering a recalibration. I would have had to beenh with him on the phone time & time again. Heck, after only 3 calls over 2 months, he has already posted this as "countless calls". This would have been like a 6 month process - and expensive on my behalf (lots of dyno runs - I didn't have access to other means), with Jesse's record it would have been way too painful and ridiculously iterative (ie, lack of communciation, the chip sitting in his kitchen for each return for weeks until addressed, etc.)....I've seen too many reports on this behavior right here on this forum. As for another reason why I didn't send the chip right back to Jesse - its called stupidity. I actually believed his claims about how great he is. So I told my mechanic how unlikely the problem lies with the chip, we keep looking for everything else but the chip.......and here it turns out, it was the chip all along......too late by then. Again, Jesse thinks he's practically perfect, I tried email after email and got ignored/no guidance.

The big question was: Why would I trust (ie, go back for "more") to a guy who did NOT AT ALL fuel partial throttle, after a major intake, cam and heads modification? So I decided late last summer THAT would be unthinkable.

So, this time around, I refuse to accept any help - chip or otherwise - from Jesse. He's too arrogant with his atitude, and thinks his way is the right way, the only way. I think we've all seen this is blantantly obvious. I've gone another route, and don't expect this problem to occur again. Next week is the maiden flight.

By the way, there are OTHERS here on this forum who despised Jesse's incompetence.....I heard plenty after my posts in the "mailorder chips unlocked" thread. This info apparently wasn't reported, so Jesse thinks he has a better track record than he does. That is unfortunate. I think we should all sit back and very carefully consider whether to ever contact him for any chip hack job.

Again, thanks for your well-wishes

Beach Bum

Well, I'm sorry to hear about the problems guys, I do not have the knowledge to offer anything else to this thread.

In regards to Jesse, I've never met him personally, but I have conversed a lot with him via email over the years and he seems like a genuinely nice guy who would never "intentionally" not provide value to his customers. Intent is always something a person should take into consideration.

I hope you guys find some common ground !!

Good Luck !!

Beach Bum

Red Tornado

Thanks Beach, and you're right - I will always say he's a nice guy. In this regard I totally agree. I don't believe there's intended malevolence either.....just a lack of real talent that's presented otherwise, more of a pathological thing than overt lies.

Edit: I forgot to address this......the pistons are NOW forged as an added measure of protection. That was part of the new (2nd) rebuild, a decision I made. Last year when this mess began, we globally made adjustments by pulling the timing by 2* then 4* at the distributor + fattened the fuel pressure to 47psi. This helped with the audible ping, but as I said, by then it was already too late (hindsight 20/20) because yes the chip was THAT BAD.

red L98

Hey bradvette,

Im not trying to start anything with you or any of your boys. But could this be the reason your motor went lean and blew up, you using the stock fuel pump that was never replaced???





http://forums.corvetteforum.com/sho...143&forum_id=48

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/sho...548&forum_id=48



good luck man with the new setup

steve40th

I use the stock LT1 pump, I dont know if there is much of a difference, but with the mods he has a stock pump isnt the problem. I saw the bins, HORRIBLE excuse for a tune.

93 ragtop

Jesse, What is the point with working with you any more. You did the following changes on my tune and this is my report on it.

As most of you know there are 3 basic categories with tuner cat. Switches, constants, and tables. Also with tunercat you can load 2 bins in and compare them.
Well I loaded the stock bin and Jesse’s bin and found the standard changes IE Switch changes, constants such as changing the fan selection temp. Etc. had been changed, but the ONLY table changes were the following.
knock retard recovery factor Vs RPM is changed from >3600 to 6400 rpm by -0.777 >2. PE % change to fuel/air ratio Vs. RPM was changed >from 1200-2000 rpm by -0.8 and from 2400-7500 rpm by >0.8 >That seems to be it.
The VE tables were never touched and this is one of the most important things to be adjusted on a speed density car such as mine.

You just dont seem to understand how VE tables are important to Speed Density cars much less how to adjust them properly.

You keep saying Alvin only gained 20 hp over your tune. Well there are a few more facts to point out on that
1. hotcam, heads, headers, and an electric water pump only increased power by 80 hp.
2. your tune made the same hp as the stock tune. wonder why? :o
3. My tune with Alvin cost a TOTAL of $250.00 which included the dyno time. That by far was the cheapest HP gain for my money I got.
4. The car now idles, has good part throttle, and overall performs well. Not rich like your tune


As I have already sent out to several people, I still am offering Jesses bin files, datamaster scans, and dyno sheets to anyone who would like to read them

Just for your information,several reputable people on this board, have both reviewed them and needless to say they are not impressed.
Two names I will throw out there that have commented on them are Nathan, and Scorp. There are several others but they chose not to pubicly comment. I appreciate their opinion and will respect their privacy on this matter.

Red Tornado

93ragtop, you bet One comment from someone who evaluated Jesse's .bin on mine (I won't ever mention who) is as follows: "....Mr. Azzato's tune is childish and irresponsible, bordering on fraud".

There you have it folks. Let all members of the forum consider themselves warned before they ever consider Mr. Azzato for a base tune. This is particularly applicable to those speed density customers, 1990-93.

Jesse STILL hasn't answered the question as to why he feels it necessary NOT to fuel the lower VE table......just as 93ragtop has elaborated on. I had about 260 total binary changes in my SD chip......thats about 600 SHORT of the average that should be done.

Jesse, goddammit tell the forum WHY. You can't because its more difficult and you don't know HOW. So when you tell a SD customer you will get him there 90% of the way, you're really good at what you do, and there should be no problems, yadda yadda, you better explain that you're really referring to a MAF customer who doesn't require such wholesale changes with your average H/C/I modifications. And tell that same customer that you're really not doing much more than leaving factory programming in there. Christ, going to you is like buying a Hypertech chip, and about the same price to boot!!

Mr Mojo

Has anybody noticed that the originator of this thread(which is now 11 pages) hasn't chimed in since page 1? That tells me that some of you guys went over the top with this discussion and it's making my head spin trying to read it all.

I have come to the conclusion that if I ever get to the point that I need a tune for my car, it won't be by anyone on this forum except those that have a certain important tag under their name.

This one is done.