mn_vette

well guys, I toasted my tranny again. I'm done with the 700R4's. Oh did I mention that this was with my spare engine, so when I slap my stroker with a turbo on it this winter(if i can afford the new turbo now). It would have ripped it in half.

So given the fact that I do alot of highway driving with this car and its my daily driver I think I'm limited to two choices. 6 speed manual, or a 4L80E.

I'm SICK of replacing trannies. I've got it down so I can pull mine in under 2 hours now. Reliablility is my main and only concern right now.

I know turbo cars tend to do better with autos. But I think the reliability and the gas milage would make up for it with the stick. Not to mention its a bolt in and I'm not 100% I could fit my 3.5" downpipe past the larger auto tranny.

Lets hear what other people think.

bigcityvette

who built your last transmission? Ide get a auto from http://www.700R4l60e.com or convert to a 4L80E

lcvette

Brian,

one sentence should settle it.. DFI has built in 2 step...

nothing like rowing gears in a turbo car in my opinion, but for all out drag racing the auto is the winner.. unfortunately that ZF tranny is not a budget item and the change over is gonna rob a healthy portion of your piggy bank.. I can't remember if you already converted to the dana 44 or not, if so you are well on your way already. with the dana 44 you should have the correct torque arm and drive shaft.

get a mcleod twin disk setup for ~$1k, and I personally would give ZF doc a ring and see if you could purchase a built ZF6 from him, the mcleod comes with a new billet master cylinder and all clutch hardware, so you will need the clutch pedal and assembly, a bellhousing, dust shield, hardware to mount it, slave cylinder and master to slave line, and shift boot and manual console for the cockpit, not sure if you would want to go the extra step for the clutch safety switch or not? but other then that I think it would be expensive, but the built ZF and mcleod should handle about anything ya wanna throw at it.. you will be breaking rearends, U-joints, and drive and half shafts before the new tranny package goes south!

just my two sense.. if its too much money, I would say shoe horn a built 4l80E in it and finesse a new downpipe!

Chris

mn_vette

I've already got the dana44, drive shaft, and torque arm.

I do all my tranny rebuilds locally. I looked around for a 4L80E a few years ago and the cost was going to be around $4k. So it should be close to a wash either way. Unless I can find a good deal on one or the other.

Is there anything special that you have to do to put a McCloud clutch in, or does the thing just bolt in like a normal clutch, ok maybe bolt isn't the right work, I'm new to installing manual trannies so this may be a learning experience.

Baldturbofreak

Rossler makes a brake for the 4l80. I believe the New valve body makes it full manual. No electric controller needed. If youve done a few 700's,and 400's the 4l80 should be a breeze for ya. You'll see some familair looking parts from the 400.

lcvette

the mcleod is a direct bolt in, if your rotating assembly is zero balanced, just let them know and they will send out a zero balanced setup if it is balanced per GM specs they will send the unit designed to bolt up to the stock rotating assembly which is counterweighted.. just let them know.. but yes they supply EVERYTHING needed to install the clutch, flywheel bolts, pressureplate, floater, both cutch disks, all hardware needed, the only thing extra you will need is a pilot bearing that goes in the back of the crankshaft which is recommended to replace duiring any clutch R&R cou0ple bucks from GM. the bellhousing should have the clutch fork already bolted in if you buy used ie salvage yard, be sure to verify, and the slave cylinder and line connect to the supplied mcleod master cylinder and bolt directly into the bellhousing. the tranny will slip into the clutch and bolt to the bellhousing and the driveshaft slips into the tranny and the torque arm bolts right up same as your auto. shifter should be correct, just need to change out the console for a manual tranny option not too expensive. I would look for a 94+ tranny which don't have the reverse lockout ring on the shifter handle. the clutch pedal and bracketry can be had from a salvage yard pretty commonly and the existing firewall should have provisions for it, I doubt GM would make a specific firewall for each car as it is unseen. you will need a smaller brake pedal as well to make room for your new clutch pedal.. all in all, I don't see it being that much boigger of a deal besides gathering the parts as putting an auto back in.. actually less to connect. the speedo gear you may want to research some, but I am sure it is similar to the auto may just need to extend shorten or change the plug harness on it depending on what year model tranny you pick up.

let me know if you have any specific questions as I still need to put my new billet master cylinder in and can snap pics of everything so you have something to look at for ordering purposes.

Chris

mn_vette

Well Chris,

Since you made it seem as easy as changing spark plugs, here's another question. What if I have a 2 piece rear seal on my crank. I'm pretty sure that it sticks out a bit further than the normal 1-peice crank. So how does that effect everything?

86VX1

I had my tranny rebuilt recently by art carr and it has been holding up really well with my heavyllly modified 406. I am almost certain that when I hit the spray with a 200 shot The tranny is going to be the first to go boom! I have began to search for an alternative to the 700 r 4.

Behold the turbo 400 with the gear vendors overdrive.

The turbo 400 will take anything you throw at it if it's built right. The gear vedors will handle 1200 hp easy and comes with a modified torque arm.
What do you think is the limit of a 4l80e? or a Zf6? definately not 1000hp. if you get the gear vendors for around 2400 shipped, and you spend another 1000 on a turbo 400 with a trans brake and a full manual valve body and straight cur gears you would never have to replace the tranny again. on top of that you would have 3 intermediate gears between the three forward gears in the th400, all that on top of an overdrive. Your turbo would definately love this tranny.

I plan to do this after I blow my 700 r4, 300 shot here I come!

hope this helps.

LPDesRoche

It's going to be up to you whether or not you want to go stick or auto. But if you do choose auto it is a NO BRAINER to go with the Turbo 400 and the Gear Vendors OD unit. 100% indestructible as far as streetable options go.

Otherwise a good cryoed ZF for the stick option.

mn_vette

Yeah, but with a 3000 stall converter and NO lockup on it can you say "Horrible Gas Mileage"

I do alot of 1100 mile round trip weekends visiting friends and family. I couldn't deal with a non-lockup auto.

Baldturbofreak

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4L80E.htm
these guys rate their transmissions a 1200 hp for their top dog.
Add the precision 3,5,or7 disc lockup cnverter and you get it all. highway OD with no stall. transbrake. and leave at 4k under boost.
Less weight then a 400/Gvod. but not a 6 sp like a Gvod.

bacardioil

rick
iam having the 4l80e installed in my car as soon as new engine is shipped from TX. your right thats the place to get the trans. thats were iam getting mine. i also dont want to build a 4l60e trans over and over because they just dont hold up. so i'll go the extra $$ and the hell with the 4l60e
regards gene

mn_vette

I've looked there before, the big problem is cost for that setup.
Tranny $2795 (lockup converter version)
Computer Controller $1199 (must have for a lockup setup)
Flywheel $50
Tranny Yoke $75
Drive shaft shortening $100
C-Beam welding/fab $100
Reworking exhaust and coating $150

Total: $4469 with Free Freight


I can pick up a used ZF6 conversion for around $2500 and a McLeod clutch for about $1k. So for $1k cheaper I can go with a 6-speed and have it bolt right in, asside from cutting the tunnel. I get a better highway gearing and save 200 pounds.

If I could find a cheaper controller or tranny I'd definately consider it. The alternative is to go with their quadzilla but I loose the lockup and that's just not good. I really would miss lauching my auto and not missing a shift.

JoBy

A friend of mine with a 1986 IROC has been running his 4L80E for two years now with a simplest possible home built computer. Lockup solenoid is connected to the 'stock' th700 lockup wire.

He is running full line pressure all the time ( nothing connectrd to the force motor ).

He has built 'paddle' shifters connected to a simple one-chip computer that control the two solenoinds selecting forward gear. The 'paddles' were made from microswitches and cable stripper pliers like these.



These are two short videos where they are seen.
http://hem.passagen.se/schwitzer/4l80e/page_01.htm

bacardioil

hi jonas
your right the only way to go.
gene

Baldturbofreak

Im pretty sure you could take their quadzilla and add the lockup back in. lockup just needs 12v to a solenoid located( If I remember right) in the front pump. It is independant of the vave body. It just should not be locked up until you are moving at speed. like 50 and above. you can do it with a simple spare output feed from your Dfi.
Since Rossler is the only transbrake valvebody, I suggest rolling your own.
Your a sharp guy, you'll have no problem doing it. You can buy all the hotrod parts from transmission .net and just go to your local yard and buy a 4l80 out of a truck. get a low mile one so you don't have to change turbine shaft seals (need special tool) or even clutchpaks in some areas. You could be out of it for less than 2200 bucks if you shop right. keep the stock converter for a little while to save dough and then upgrade later. Just get a Gm servise manual that inccludes the 4l80 (like the bbc trucks) to help out with the quirks.

mn_vette

I did find a 4L80E locally for $800 with 136K on it. I also found them on ebay fully built for $1500. If I get the one off ebay that puts me pretty close to the same cost. That I could live with. So now it comes down to which one.


MANUAL ADVANTAGES:

Fun to drive
Better gas milage
Bolt in installation
Haven't herd of people braking them
Lighter
No tranny cooler to deal with




AUTOMATIC ADVANTAGES:

Easier launches
No missed shifts
Unique
Should be very stout
Can drive, talk on the phone, and eat a cheese burger at the same time



The auto would be alot more work to put in. I just can't see doing an auto. I'm going to call the guy at McLeod today and see if I can get a clutch for it.

I don't think there would be too much of an HP advantage either way, Kind of a toss up with a high torque motor. I have a boost builder with my DFI so a trans brake isn't needed.

mn_vette

Well, I ordered my tranny this morning. $2k for a used ZF-6 with 68K on it and all the parts I need to do the swap. Its out of a '93 so it should bolt in just fine to my '93 and it should be one of the black tag trannies.

Now I just need to get a decent clutch and all my tranny problems should disappear, I hope.

Draven

For 2k, should have had him check. I think they made the swap in 93/94, so hopefully it wasn't late leaving the factory. : )

BrianCunningham

The early ZF's can handle 1,000ft-lbs.
ZFdoc can modify them to take even more.

But, a TH400 can take even more.