JAKE

Let me go out to the garage and check mine and I'll post which is which. Hang on a few.

Jake

red86man

Definitely have funky stuff going on here, without a doubt. So, here's the latest:
- Fixed the FP Relay circuit so the FP energizes on key-on, as it should. No change in condition.
- Clamped the top hose (I am assuming this is the fuel return line) and cranked the engine. Key-on to 40 psi, cranking between 42 - 45 psi, release key and pressure drops to 42 psi, internal gurgling / suction noise for 2 secs. after key release, then pressure kicks down to 40 psi again and then it drops rapidly from there.
- Clamped bottom hose (assuming fuel pressure line), key on to 40 psi, cranking jumps pressure up to 50 - 52 psi, key release jumps pressure to about 60 - 62 psi, internal gurgling / suction noise for secs after releasing key, pressure jumps down to 40 psi then falls rapidly.

Interesting set of symptoms, eh?!

red86man

To check the FIs, do I need to remove the plenum first or can I just remove the 2 bolts on both fuel rails and lift the rails up a bit?

JAKE

Just checked mine.

I believe that since I've taken my engine in and out so many times over the years, my lines are not longer one on top of the other; they're more like side by side.

You can still tell though because they are two difference sizes.

If you look at the metal line - not the rubber part - you'll see the difference in diameter. The larger of the two is pressure and the smaller, return.

Hope this helps.

Jake

Redeasysport

The injectors must still be attached the the fuel rail to test them.On my car 2 bolts(I squirt a drop of oil near the seals before removing)wiggle and lift it I know yours is different but on mine you can stick the rails in a 5 gal bucket and crank the car to check them.

JAKE

Since I'm running large tube runners, I had to pull the plenum and runners to be able to raise the fuel rails high enough to disconnect the injectors from the intake.

I then had to position the injectors/rails in sort of a wierd angle to be able to reconnect the fuel lines to the fuel rails. All you need is to be able to see the tips of all of them.

When the pump is energized and one or more of them is leaking, you shouldn't have a problem seeing it/them.

Jake

red86man

Thanks, Jake. It appears that the top line has the larger diameter steel line, so I guess that's the fuel pressure line per your feedback. Based on my recent pressure testing, then the clamping of the fuel return line gave me the odd jump in pressure both during and after cranking.

JAKE

Right, with the return line pinched, the fuel pressure regulator cannot control the pressure - no way for it to send excessive pressure back to the tank. So the pressure SHOULD increase to a psi higher than it' set for.

But when you hear the gurgling accompanied with a pressure drop, and the return is still pinched, you can now bet there's a leak and I'm pretty sure it's an injector issue.

Everything you've tested and posted on so far points to one or more of the injectors. I know what a PIA it is to pull the intake setup to test them, but I don't see any way around it. The magic fairy isn't going to show up tonight and miraculousy fix it. So you've gotta have at it.

Since that seems to be your next step, get all the stuff you need to put everything back together, first. New gaskets for the runners, new "O" rings for the injectors (they sometimes tear when removed - NAPA should have them both), etc.

Jake

red86man

Jake,

Thanks for the further clarification. I'm pissed about the magic fairy, though - he's been on vacation way too long...

JAKE

I know that feeling, hasn't shown up around here lately either.

Jake

CFI-EFI

Plus the pressure drops with either the pressure or the return line pinched. That and WAAAY too much fuel in the intake says MAYBE the vacuum port in the regulator(which can be checked visually, but most likely leaky injectors.

RACE ON!!!

red86man

CFI-EFI,

Thanks for your input. FPR vac line appears to be dry with no noticable fuel smell, so I guess we've pretty much narrowed it down to an injector issue.

I'm pulling bolts on the plenum and runners as we speak. We'll see what we can see.

rick lambert

By golly I think we're down to the either-or, meaning leaky injector(s) or FP regulator. The part I'm leaning to-just because of the "gurling" noise back in the location of the Pressure regulator-would be the first part I would check-but I did think you would see fuel in the vac. line.but don't know if that's always the case.There have been a few members here that have reported even new FP regulators going south.

Also a friend told me the ingredients in electrical cleaner and brake cleaner are identical-he's pretty damn sharp-and a penny pincher to lol.

Just read your last post-good idea

ittlfly

[QUOTE=JAKE]I've engaged in this back and forth on this specific issue before so I won't revisit it again. Too many counter-punchers to contend with, so I'll just concentrate on helping diagnose the problem.


Jake...I couldn't AGREE with you more on that thought!!!

red86man......I'll refer you back to my original post....the main FUEL problem (according to your listed symptoms) all points to your injector(s). I also agree with sending them to Rich @ crusin as he does great work, fair prices and short turn-arounds.

red86man

Rick and ittlfly,

Thanks for your input. Looks like we're getting down to the root cause(s) of the problem, finally.

Most brake cleaners and electrical cleaners do clean grease and gunk to some degree, but most do not completely clean contact surfaces and leave a trace of residue behind.

I designed and developed a two-step degreaser and surface purifier system called ArctiClean that we currently market to computer techies around the world for removing thermal grease and prepping the heat transfer surfaces (i.e. - CPU and Heat Sink and Fan). Beats anything else I've ever tested for degreasing and surface cleaning.

BTW, how hard should it be to pull the runners once I've got all the bolts off? Does not want to move. What's the trick?

Redeasysport

Elbow grease.Did you drop some oil at the base.They get pretty sticky if they have not been out for a while.I used a long screwdriver the first time very slowly.

rick lambert

Interesting about the cleaner.

JAKE

Yep, in the past I've had to use a thin blade scraper, wedged where the runners meet the plenum, to break the seal on mine.

A few taps with a hammer on the handle of the scraper is all it takes to get them started coming off. Once the seal breaks, the rest is gravey.

Jake

red86man

Thanks, Rick. Judging from the myriad of internet reviews, forum discussions and brisk sales, many people do seem to like the ArctiClean. I've used it exclusively over other cleaners on my cars and around the house since I first developed the system 3 years ago. I like it, but, of course, I made it, so I'm a little biased.

We've talked about making automotive and household versions of the product, which we may do at some point in the future. At this point, though, those markets are outside of our core business, which is manufacturing novel thermal interface materials (TIMs - heat sink compounds) and bio-safe materials to remove old TIMs and prep heat transfer surfaces for TIM application in computer and electronic products.

Regarding the disassembly of the the plenum and runners, I completely unbolted the upper and lower flanges of the left and right side runners. I made a couple of attempts to break the gasket seals by hand before dinner and running the kids to sports, but nothing seemed to budge. I guess I'll put a come-along on the runners tomorrow and use some real leverage to break the gasket bonds.

Any other thoughts or suggestions about disassembling the runner and plenum would be appreciated.

red86man

Thanks for the insight, Jake. I'll give that a try tomorrow.