Heart of my Beast Grenaded !! Pics of the Aftermath !!
09-09-2007, 11:42 PM
#21
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Jake I believe I dropped a valve because the retainer split. The night i had my valve last set I was out pounding on the car datalogging seeing if it helped any. After a few 4th gear pulls I heard the ticking when i got out from the car. I drove it home and pulled the valve cover. The first 3 pics in this post were from that day of what I saw when i pulled the cover. there was a few mm of gap maybe even a cm between the loose rocker and the valve tip. I was redlining the car (7850 rpm) with no nut on my rocker ! if anything I figured it was banging the rocker on the valve tip and the retainer may have gotten weak ? I wanted Ti retainers but they werent possible with the bb beehives that used 7' locks I believe ?
thats my theory
I just think its too much coincidence that the exact valve seems to have dropped that had the loose nut. It bothered me ever since it happened. and when I brought the car home after it seized.. i pulled that same spark plug to check it.. and it was destroyed. I just knew it.
I may be wrong here I'm not claiming to be a know it all. cuz I definitely aint !
thats my theory
I just think its too much coincidence that the exact valve seems to have dropped that had the loose nut. It bothered me ever since it happened. and when I brought the car home after it seized.. i pulled that same spark plug to check it.. and it was destroyed. I just knew it.
I may be wrong here I'm not claiming to be a know it all. cuz I definitely aint !
Last edited by 5abivt; 09-09-2007 at 11:48 PM.
09-10-2007, 02:34 AM
#23
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
Im thinking you had some valve float and the retainer got pounded to death. No need to run that motor so high.
09-10-2007, 07:45 AM
#24
Safety Car
Thanks for the replies
There were many things that contributed to a continuing downward spiral in performance with this motor. When this happend, it was getting on an on-ramp to the freeway at 20 km/hr or so and when i stepped on it in 1st gear I gradually got on the throttle as not to blow the tire off.. when the on-ramp straghtened out i got on it and she pulled nice and hard and locked up at 7k rpm. there wasn't much noise. just a little jerk and I saw the service engine light pop so I stomped the clutch and pulled right over.
:
There were many things that contributed to a continuing downward spiral in performance with this motor. When this happend, it was getting on an on-ramp to the freeway at 20 km/hr or so and when i stepped on it in 1st gear I gradually got on the throttle as not to blow the tire off.. when the on-ramp straghtened out i got on it and she pulled nice and hard and locked up at 7k rpm. there wasn't much noise. just a little jerk and I saw the service engine light pop so I stomped the clutch and pulled right over.
:
09-10-2007, 02:33 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
Here are some more of my thoughts:
If you want to continue to flirt with RPMs that high, I'd embark on valvetrain strengthening. I'd run:
1. A Billet Mechanical Roller Cam
2. CompCams' Best Roller Lifters designed and recommended for those RPM's
3. 3/8" .080 wall one piece pushrods - I'd move up from 5/16" rods
4. Dual 1.46"/1.5" valvesprings with matching STEEL Retainers (not Titanium) and Comp's best matching 10* locks, all from the same supplier - Titanium's great for race engine, but not street ones.
I'd look for springs designed to handle valve lifts significantly higher than the cam I'd be running can achieve. I'd say, if the cam has .600 valve lift, I'd look for springs rated as being able to handle .700 valve lift - I'd over build the springs.
Any valvetrain lightening should be concentrated on the valve-side, which is where lighter parts are most beneficial. Not much is gained by lightening parts on the lifter side.
If you've spent a considerable sum having your damaged heads ported, they may well be salvageable. Damaged aluminum heads are, many times, repairable.
In essence, I'd look to make the valvetrain stronger and more rigid. I'd also zero-in on the tuning to be absolutely sure the engine doesn't run lean under power.
These are just my thoughts on how I'd approach the re-build. Your mileage may vary.
Jake
If you want to continue to flirt with RPMs that high, I'd embark on valvetrain strengthening. I'd run:
1. A Billet Mechanical Roller Cam
2. CompCams' Best Roller Lifters designed and recommended for those RPM's
3. 3/8" .080 wall one piece pushrods - I'd move up from 5/16" rods
4. Dual 1.46"/1.5" valvesprings with matching STEEL Retainers (not Titanium) and Comp's best matching 10* locks, all from the same supplier - Titanium's great for race engine, but not street ones.
I'd look for springs designed to handle valve lifts significantly higher than the cam I'd be running can achieve. I'd say, if the cam has .600 valve lift, I'd look for springs rated as being able to handle .700 valve lift - I'd over build the springs.
Any valvetrain lightening should be concentrated on the valve-side, which is where lighter parts are most beneficial. Not much is gained by lightening parts on the lifter side.
If you've spent a considerable sum having your damaged heads ported, they may well be salvageable. Damaged aluminum heads are, many times, repairable.
In essence, I'd look to make the valvetrain stronger and more rigid. I'd also zero-in on the tuning to be absolutely sure the engine doesn't run lean under power.
These are just my thoughts on how I'd approach the re-build. Your mileage may vary.
Jake
09-10-2007, 05:26 PM
#27
Safety Car
If you are serious about turning 8000rpm, and doing it sucessfully for any amount of time... first thing, you are going to have to drop all the bought it from Summit and Comp Cams junk in your valve train. Over hyped, mass marketed, magazine JUNK that has no place in a real racing engine.
I don't care that its in a street car with your expectations you should be building nothing less than the best money can buy.
We have been building very sucessful Drag and Late Model Dirt engines for the past 30yrs or so (30yrs=dad/15yrs=me) and I can tell you its no walk in the park what you are trying to accomplish. Personally I would back it down a notch. 7000RPM is easy to accomplish safely and the price difference is.... well alot for that extra 1K RPM.
IMO you need:
A billet 55mm cam core.
Lifters. As far as I am concerned I would not trust any type of conventional "tie bar" lifter in an application with all the constraints of yours (ie turn 8k and then drive around on the street all the time ect ect). My recomendation is either Jesel or LSM keyway lifters. (.842 dia isn't going to last very long so I suggest .875 or .904's)
Pushrods. Trend pushrods are all we use and we turn beyond 8000 rpm using .080 wall 5/16 dia with no problems. We don't use 3/8 pushrods (due to the added weight) on anything with less than 850lbs of spring pressure and even then they are all BB drag motors that get inspected a couple time a month and only turn Max RPM for a short time.
Springs. Check into a company named PSI and change them every season. We use PSI in our high end endurance engines and do not have any valve spring problems.
Retainers had better be titanium and change them every season along with your locks. I like Manleys retainers and locks but we also use Trick Titanium, SI and CV Products depending.
Valves. Ferrea has some very nice Titanium valves that have a gold Titanium nitride coating. They last in our engines better than any other ti valves we have ever used and we have tried them all.
Rockers. A stable shaft mount system is imperative and you already have that covered with your Jesel.
Of course after all this you are going to spend a lot of $$$ and your bottom end had better be up to the task. I am sure I already gave some pointers on stroke to rod ratio and all that a few weeks ago.
Now to address anothers post here.
Jake:
Valve train STABILITY (not strength) is the key to making an engines top end live a high RPM. Stability is accomplished by controling harmonics. Things like A larger cam core help since its stifffer and resist deflection. But everything is not as simple as using stronger parts, you have to weigh the benifit of strength over weight in everything that acts directly on the rocker arm like the pushrods, retainers and valves. Here you HAVE to use the lightestweight parts availiable to make life easier on the Valve Springs. Things like 3/8 pushrods, heavy lifters, steel valves and retainers would kill a motor like this in very litttle time IMO. You have to make the lifter follow the cam lobe and the valve follow the rocker tip at all cost in high RPM. Once even the most minute valve float occurs valve spring harmonics go haywire (sometimes breaking them), lifters start skipping on the lobe (destroying the roller and its needles), the rocker slams into the valve tip (sometimes breaking the rocker but sometimes coupled with the out of control spring harmoics the locks or retainers crack and fail and sometimes the broken rocker just crashes down on top of them breaking them). The point being when things reach this it dosen't matter if they were made of syran wrap or steel its all junk now. You have to prevent it in the first place and you do that by using the parts I have described above.
Will
I don't care that its in a street car with your expectations you should be building nothing less than the best money can buy.
We have been building very sucessful Drag and Late Model Dirt engines for the past 30yrs or so (30yrs=dad/15yrs=me) and I can tell you its no walk in the park what you are trying to accomplish. Personally I would back it down a notch. 7000RPM is easy to accomplish safely and the price difference is.... well alot for that extra 1K RPM.
IMO you need:
A billet 55mm cam core.
Lifters. As far as I am concerned I would not trust any type of conventional "tie bar" lifter in an application with all the constraints of yours (ie turn 8k and then drive around on the street all the time ect ect). My recomendation is either Jesel or LSM keyway lifters. (.842 dia isn't going to last very long so I suggest .875 or .904's)
Pushrods. Trend pushrods are all we use and we turn beyond 8000 rpm using .080 wall 5/16 dia with no problems. We don't use 3/8 pushrods (due to the added weight) on anything with less than 850lbs of spring pressure and even then they are all BB drag motors that get inspected a couple time a month and only turn Max RPM for a short time.
Springs. Check into a company named PSI and change them every season. We use PSI in our high end endurance engines and do not have any valve spring problems.
Retainers had better be titanium and change them every season along with your locks. I like Manleys retainers and locks but we also use Trick Titanium, SI and CV Products depending.
Valves. Ferrea has some very nice Titanium valves that have a gold Titanium nitride coating. They last in our engines better than any other ti valves we have ever used and we have tried them all.
Rockers. A stable shaft mount system is imperative and you already have that covered with your Jesel.
Of course after all this you are going to spend a lot of $$$ and your bottom end had better be up to the task. I am sure I already gave some pointers on stroke to rod ratio and all that a few weeks ago.
Now to address anothers post here.
Jake:
Valve train STABILITY (not strength) is the key to making an engines top end live a high RPM. Stability is accomplished by controling harmonics. Things like A larger cam core help since its stifffer and resist deflection. But everything is not as simple as using stronger parts, you have to weigh the benifit of strength over weight in everything that acts directly on the rocker arm like the pushrods, retainers and valves. Here you HAVE to use the lightestweight parts availiable to make life easier on the Valve Springs. Things like 3/8 pushrods, heavy lifters, steel valves and retainers would kill a motor like this in very litttle time IMO. You have to make the lifter follow the cam lobe and the valve follow the rocker tip at all cost in high RPM. Once even the most minute valve float occurs valve spring harmonics go haywire (sometimes breaking them), lifters start skipping on the lobe (destroying the roller and its needles), the rocker slams into the valve tip (sometimes breaking the rocker but sometimes coupled with the out of control spring harmoics the locks or retainers crack and fail and sometimes the broken rocker just crashes down on top of them breaking them). The point being when things reach this it dosen't matter if they were made of syran wrap or steel its all junk now. You have to prevent it in the first place and you do that by using the parts I have described above.
Will
09-10-2007, 07:46 PM
#30
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Here are some more of my thoughts:
If you want to continue to flirt with RPMs that high, I'd embark on valvetrain strengthening. I'd run:
1. A Billet Mechanical Roller Cam
2. CompCams' Best Roller Lifters designed and recommended for those RPM's
3. 3/8" .080 wall one piece pushrods - I'd move up from 5/16" rods
4. Dual 1.46"/1.5" valvesprings with matching STEEL Retainers (not Titanium) and Comp's best matching 10* locks, all from the same supplier - Titanium's great for race engine, but not street ones.
I'd look for springs designed to handle valve lifts significantly higher than the cam I'd be running can achieve. I'd say, if the cam has .600 valve lift, I'd look for springs rated as being able to handle .700 valve lift - I'd over build the springs.
Any valvetrain lightening should be concentrated on the valve-side, which is where lighter parts are most beneficial. Not much is gained by lightening parts on the lifter side.
If you've spent a considerable sum having your damaged heads ported, they may well be salvageable. Damaged aluminum heads are, many times, repairable.
In essence, I'd look to make the valvetrain stronger and more rigid. I'd also zero-in on the tuning to be absolutely sure the engine doesn't run lean under power.
These are just my thoughts on how I'd approach the re-build. Your mileage may vary.
Jake
If you want to continue to flirt with RPMs that high, I'd embark on valvetrain strengthening. I'd run:
1. A Billet Mechanical Roller Cam
2. CompCams' Best Roller Lifters designed and recommended for those RPM's
3. 3/8" .080 wall one piece pushrods - I'd move up from 5/16" rods
4. Dual 1.46"/1.5" valvesprings with matching STEEL Retainers (not Titanium) and Comp's best matching 10* locks, all from the same supplier - Titanium's great for race engine, but not street ones.
I'd look for springs designed to handle valve lifts significantly higher than the cam I'd be running can achieve. I'd say, if the cam has .600 valve lift, I'd look for springs rated as being able to handle .700 valve lift - I'd over build the springs.
Any valvetrain lightening should be concentrated on the valve-side, which is where lighter parts are most beneficial. Not much is gained by lightening parts on the lifter side.
If you've spent a considerable sum having your damaged heads ported, they may well be salvageable. Damaged aluminum heads are, many times, repairable.
In essence, I'd look to make the valvetrain stronger and more rigid. I'd also zero-in on the tuning to be absolutely sure the engine doesn't run lean under power.
These are just my thoughts on how I'd approach the re-build. Your mileage may vary.
Jake
The only thing I'm missing in your checklist is the valve springs. You did mention looking to lighten everything on the valve side, and that's precisely why the builder chose the Big block beehives. The T&D shaft rockers were lightened with the lightweight rollers and better needle bearings. The valves are custom hollow stems.
With regards to using a spring thats stronger than needed, that was why the cam he chose for me had less than .600 lift.
For those that don't know, the motor made 478.8 rwhp on a Mustang dyno. She ran well peaking at 7100 rpm and holding 440+ rwhp at 7500 rpm. The heads are where I did spend most of my money if they are salvageable I'd be pretty happy. In a way it would be upsetting because I'm tempted to try the new AFR 210s with the LS1 valves and the comp port.
Last but not least.. the TUNE !
This motor was built with me knowing some but NOT experienced at all tuning the car. the builder fired the car up before we got the wideband installed and yes it was very rich. On the dyno she did make best power at 13.1 AFR. On the street I had it set at 12.8 AFR at WOT. Max timing with the LT4 heads was only 32 degrees. any more and she wouldnt make more power.
For the new rebuild again I want the peak power at 7k rpm and I'll be setting the limiter to 7500. It will depend on what it puts out on the dyno of course to decide if there's any point to revving it so high but that is generally what I want from it.
As for the block it is getting machined for the program billet splayed main caps and It will have the billet front and rear caps as well, it is also being checked for deck height etc and if the crank is damaged I'll be going with a 3.65 stroke and we'll probably use 6.0" TI rods or longer if we can to get a better r/s ratio.
Last edited by 5abivt; 09-10-2007 at 07:57 PM.
09-10-2007, 09:31 PM
#32
Safety Car
They last an entire season in our oval track engines and then we only replace them to be on the safe side. Bear in mind these engines turn 8500-9000rpm for 40-100 lap races on 3/8 to 1/2 mile race tracks. I have Titanium retainers on bracket drag racing engines that are 3-4yrs old without failure, we do change the locks every year ($25.00) but some customers just won't shell out the extra $85-$250 when it comes time to freshen their engine for new Ti retainers. But they are not my gauge for the durability of Ti retainers...
I have a customer with a 406 in an S-10 that has an old set of PhaseII Bowtie heads from one of our anchient oval track engines on it. This set of heads is over 20 yrs old. They have an old set of Howard Stewert standard 7 degree Ti retainers we purchased used in 1986 (came on a different set of heads we bought from an auction). Prior to putting the heads on this 406 I freshened them up with new valves (Ferrea SS) and 1.550 roller springs (SI, 210lbs on the seat but who knows now) when I orginally built the 406 in 1992. The retainers looked fine so I reused them with some new locks of course. The owner lets me adjust the valves about 2 times a year if its lucky and those retainers are still going strong - driven on the street and raced on weekends since 1992 and those retainers were raced every weekend on my dads personal race car and my first race car for years before this guy ended up with them - prior to 1986, I have no clue as to how much they were used or abused.
Is every set of Ti retainers going to last 20yrs??
Probally not but belive me they are fine for a street car. I use them on my personal stuff and when ever the customer is willing to pay for them. IMO There is no reason not to other than cost.Will
09-10-2007, 10:22 PM
#33
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Titanium retainers are fine for the street as long as the owner is willing to shell out the $$$ (which you obviously are).
They last an entire season in our oval track engines and then we only replace them to be on the safe side. Bear in mind these engines turn 8500-9000rpm for 40-100 lap races on 3/8 to 1/2 mile race tracks. I have Titanium retainers on bracket drag racing engines that are 3-4yrs old without failure, we do change the locks every year ($25.00) but some customers just won't shell out the extra $85-$250 when it comes time to freshen their engine for new Ti retainers. But they are not my gauge for the durability of Ti retainers...
I have a customer with a 406 in an S-10 that has an old set of PhaseII Bowtie heads from one of our anchient oval track engines on it. This set of heads is over 20 yrs old. They have an old set of Howard Stewert standard 7 degree Ti retainers we purchased used in 1986 (came on a different set of heads we bought from an auction). Prior to putting the heads on this 406 I freshened them up with new valves (Ferrea SS) and 1.550 roller springs (SI, 210lbs on the seat but who knows now) when I orginally built the 406 in 1992. The retainers looked fine so I reused them with some new locks of course. The owner lets me adjust the valves about 2 times a year if its lucky and those retainers are still going strong - driven on the street and raced on weekends since 1992 and those retainers were raced every weekend on my dads personal race car and my first race car for years before this guy ended up with them - prior to 1986, I have no clue as to how much they were used or abused.
Is every set of Ti retainers going to last 20yrs?? Probally not but belive me they are fine for a street car. I use them on my personal stuff and when ever the customer is willing to pay for them. IMO There is no reason not to other than cost.
Will
They last an entire season in our oval track engines and then we only replace them to be on the safe side. Bear in mind these engines turn 8500-9000rpm for 40-100 lap races on 3/8 to 1/2 mile race tracks. I have Titanium retainers on bracket drag racing engines that are 3-4yrs old without failure, we do change the locks every year ($25.00) but some customers just won't shell out the extra $85-$250 when it comes time to freshen their engine for new Ti retainers. But they are not my gauge for the durability of Ti retainers...
I have a customer with a 406 in an S-10 that has an old set of PhaseII Bowtie heads from one of our anchient oval track engines on it. This set of heads is over 20 yrs old. They have an old set of Howard Stewert standard 7 degree Ti retainers we purchased used in 1986 (came on a different set of heads we bought from an auction). Prior to putting the heads on this 406 I freshened them up with new valves (Ferrea SS) and 1.550 roller springs (SI, 210lbs on the seat but who knows now) when I orginally built the 406 in 1992. The retainers looked fine so I reused them with some new locks of course. The owner lets me adjust the valves about 2 times a year if its lucky and those retainers are still going strong - driven on the street and raced on weekends since 1992 and those retainers were raced every weekend on my dads personal race car and my first race car for years before this guy ended up with them - prior to 1986, I have no clue as to how much they were used or abused.
Is every set of Ti retainers going to last 20yrs??
Probally not but belive me they are fine for a street car. I use them on my personal stuff and when ever the customer is willing to pay for them. IMO There is no reason not to other than cost.Will
I was pretty sure Ti retainers were good enough for street use. Based on your experience with 8-9k rpm motors the durability is impressive indeed.Even moreso after reading your experience with one of your customers.
I wanted them for my motor but I believe I had 7'degree locks with small retainers for the beehives and there were'nt any Ti available.
Are there any exotic valve springs out there that offer long life and all the goodies? I know long ago I read about a material called Pecalloy or something similar. Teh AFR 210 eliminators use a 8mm ls1 valve and I don't know what spring they can be upgraded to but I'm sure my builder will have an issue with them
09-11-2007, 09:06 AM
#34
Safety Car
Appreciate the input I was pretty sure Ti retainers were good enough for street use. Based on your experience with 8-9k rpm motors the durability is impressive indeed.
Even moreso after reading your experience with one of your customers.
I wanted them for my motor but I believe I had 7'degree locks with small retainers for the beehives and there were'nt any Ti available.
Are there any exotic valve springs out there that offer long life and all the goodies? I know long ago I read about a material called Pecalloy or something similar. Teh AFR 210 eliminators use a 8mm ls1 valve and I don't know what spring they can be upgraded to but I'm sure my builder will have an issue with them
I was pretty sure Ti retainers were good enough for street use. Based on your experience with 8-9k rpm motors the durability is impressive indeed.Even moreso after reading your experience with one of your customers.
I wanted them for my motor but I believe I had 7'degree locks with small retainers for the beehives and there were'nt any Ti available.
Are there any exotic valve springs out there that offer long life and all the goodies? I know long ago I read about a material called Pecalloy or something similar. Teh AFR 210 eliminators use a 8mm ls1 valve and I don't know what spring they can be upgraded to but I'm sure my builder will have an issue with them
the K Motion H-11 tool steel springs came in to popular use about this time (as it was THE spring to run in drag racing in the late 80's) but we soon learned it also broke (and wore out very very quickly in an endurance engine), not to mention the extreamly high spring loads H-11 can create wore out roller lifters and rockerarms.
Due to all the prolems in the late 80's and early 90's There are probally 100 different alloys of steel used in valve spring materials these days. Each has their purpose.
PSI (Performance Springs Inc) is a small spring company that is sold exclusively through CV products. They are some of the smartest valve spring and valve train people on this planet. So good infact that the well know ISKY "Tool Room" and "ISKYALOY" branded endurance springs are made for Isky by PSI. There are some valve springs close to as good, but NONE better.
http://www.cvproducts.com/cv/product...spx?brandID=61
http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...s.asp?dept=459
Other springs I have had very good luck with in our street cars and oval track cars. The Howards springs are also offered electro polished which can increase their life but its not like an absolute IMO.
http://www.competitionproducts.com/products.asp?dept=74
http://www.competitionproducts.com/products.asp?dept=64
SI valves makes really good springs for the money. They have held up really well for us in a couple of really big bracket engines and on lower priced street car stuff I routinely use them (like that old 406 S-10). Many big companies re-brand SI's springs (and valves) as their own to sell to the public.
http://www.sivalves.com
Since your heads are destroyed probally and you have not decided for sure on what heads you are going to run yet, I cannot make a specific part number recomendation for you as I need to know your set up height and camshaft specs. Still look around the links I gave you and ponder prices and specs for you when you pin down what heads you are going to run you have a few outlets to go and choose springs from in the future. Don't buy in to the hype, these are the people who spend their money building and engineering better parts for racers
- not buying magazine ads like Comp Cams 
.Will
Last edited by rklessdriver; 09-11-2007 at 09:13 AM.
09-11-2007, 05:54 PM
#35
Safety Car
Thread Starter
rckless I appreciate your input I went through all the links and theres some pretty nice springs there. I'm pretty sure a few of those only come in pressures a little high for my app but I guess it depends on how big of a cam we decide to run. theres some nice springs in there
Im heading over to the shopep now to take a look at the motor apart. From what I've been told the crank rotates smoothly and Only 1 piston got detroyed. The rod on #1 has some dings in it from the broken piston.
More pics coming in a few hours !!!!!!!!! stay tuned !!
I went through all the links and theres some pretty nice springs there. I'm pretty sure a few of those only come in pressures a little high for my app but I guess it depends on how big of a cam we decide to run. theres some nice springs in there Im heading over to the shopep now to take a look at the motor apart. From what I've been told the crank rotates smoothly and Only 1 piston got detroyed. The rod on #1 has some dings in it from the broken piston.
More pics coming in a few hours !!!!!!!!! stay tuned !!
09-11-2007, 07:38 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
I'm currently running Isky springs and have no ill feelings about revving them to 74-7500, however, I am still running stud-mount rockers so I set the rev-limiter to 6900 until I change them out to a Jesel shaft mount system.
Are you still thinking about going to a coil-over-plug setup with the new engine? If you're still looking for mounting pics let me know, I finally got the digital camera back and can snap some quick shots if needed.
Are you still thinking about going to a coil-over-plug setup with the new engine? If you're still looking for mounting pics let me know, I finally got the digital camera back and can snap some quick shots if needed.
09-11-2007, 07:47 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
If you are serious about turning 8000rpm, and doing it sucessfully for any amount of time... first thing, you are going to have to drop all the bought it from Summit and Comp Cams junk in your valve train. Over hyped, mass marketed, magazine JUNK that has no place in a real racing engine.
I don't care that its in a street car with your expectations you should be building nothing less than the best money can buy.
We have been building very sucessful Drag and Late Model Dirt engines for the past 30yrs or so (30yrs=dad/15yrs=me) and I can tell you its no walk in the park what you are trying to accomplish. Personally I would back it down a notch. 7000RPM is easy to accomplish safely and the price difference is.... well alot for that extra 1K RPM.
IMO you need:
A billet 55mm cam core.
Lifters. As far as I am concerned I would not trust any type of conventional "tie bar" lifter in an application with all the constraints of yours (ie turn 8k and then drive around on the street all the time ect ect). My recomendation is either Jesel or LSM keyway lifters. (.842 dia isn't going to last very long so I suggest .875 or .904's)
Pushrods. Trend pushrods are all we use and we turn beyond 8000 rpm using .080 wall 5/16 dia with no problems. We don't use 3/8 pushrods (due to the added weight) on anything with less than 850lbs of spring pressure and even then they are all BB drag motors that get inspected a couple time a month and only turn Max RPM for a short time.
Springs. Check into a company named PSI and change them every season. We use PSI in our high end endurance engines and do not have any valve spring problems.
Retainers had better be titanium and change them every season along with your locks. I like Manleys retainers and locks but we also use Trick Titanium, SI and CV Products depending.
Valves. Ferrea has some very nice Titanium valves that have a gold Titanium nitride coating. They last in our engines better than any other ti valves we have ever used and we have tried them all.
Rockers. A stable shaft mount system is imperative and you already have that covered with your Jesel.
Of course after all this you are going to spend a lot of $$$ and your bottom end had better be up to the task. I am sure I already gave some pointers on stroke to rod ratio and all that a few weeks ago.
Now to address anothers post here.
Jake:
Valve train STABILITY (not strength) is the key to making an engines top end live a high RPM. Stability is accomplished by controling harmonics. Things like A larger cam core help since its stifffer and resist deflection. But everything is not as simple as using stronger parts, you have to weigh the benifit of strength over weight in everything that acts directly on the rocker arm like the pushrods, retainers and valves. Here you HAVE to use the lightestweight parts availiable to make life easier on the Valve Springs. Things like 3/8 pushrods, heavy lifters, steel valves and retainers would kill a motor like this in very litttle time IMO. You have to make the lifter follow the cam lobe and the valve follow the rocker tip at all cost in high RPM. Once even the most minute valve float occurs valve spring harmonics go haywire (sometimes breaking them), lifters start skipping on the lobe (destroying the roller and its needles), the rocker slams into the valve tip (sometimes breaking the rocker but sometimes coupled with the out of control spring harmoics the locks or retainers crack and fail and sometimes the broken rocker just crashes down on top of them breaking them). The point being when things reach this it dosen't matter if they were made of syran wrap or steel its all junk now. You have to prevent it in the first place and you do that by using the parts I have described above.
Will
I don't care that its in a street car with your expectations you should be building nothing less than the best money can buy.
We have been building very sucessful Drag and Late Model Dirt engines for the past 30yrs or so (30yrs=dad/15yrs=me) and I can tell you its no walk in the park what you are trying to accomplish. Personally I would back it down a notch. 7000RPM is easy to accomplish safely and the price difference is.... well alot for that extra 1K RPM.
IMO you need:
A billet 55mm cam core.
Lifters. As far as I am concerned I would not trust any type of conventional "tie bar" lifter in an application with all the constraints of yours (ie turn 8k and then drive around on the street all the time ect ect). My recomendation is either Jesel or LSM keyway lifters. (.842 dia isn't going to last very long so I suggest .875 or .904's)
Pushrods. Trend pushrods are all we use and we turn beyond 8000 rpm using .080 wall 5/16 dia with no problems. We don't use 3/8 pushrods (due to the added weight) on anything with less than 850lbs of spring pressure and even then they are all BB drag motors that get inspected a couple time a month and only turn Max RPM for a short time.
Springs. Check into a company named PSI and change them every season. We use PSI in our high end endurance engines and do not have any valve spring problems.
Retainers had better be titanium and change them every season along with your locks. I like Manleys retainers and locks but we also use Trick Titanium, SI and CV Products depending.
Valves. Ferrea has some very nice Titanium valves that have a gold Titanium nitride coating. They last in our engines better than any other ti valves we have ever used and we have tried them all.
Rockers. A stable shaft mount system is imperative and you already have that covered with your Jesel.
Of course after all this you are going to spend a lot of $$$ and your bottom end had better be up to the task. I am sure I already gave some pointers on stroke to rod ratio and all that a few weeks ago.
Now to address anothers post here.
Jake:
Valve train STABILITY (not strength) is the key to making an engines top end live a high RPM. Stability is accomplished by controling harmonics. Things like A larger cam core help since its stifffer and resist deflection. But everything is not as simple as using stronger parts, you have to weigh the benifit of strength over weight in everything that acts directly on the rocker arm like the pushrods, retainers and valves. Here you HAVE to use the lightestweight parts availiable to make life easier on the Valve Springs. Things like 3/8 pushrods, heavy lifters, steel valves and retainers would kill a motor like this in very litttle time IMO. You have to make the lifter follow the cam lobe and the valve follow the rocker tip at all cost in high RPM. Once even the most minute valve float occurs valve spring harmonics go haywire (sometimes breaking them), lifters start skipping on the lobe (destroying the roller and its needles), the rocker slams into the valve tip (sometimes breaking the rocker but sometimes coupled with the out of control spring harmoics the locks or retainers crack and fail and sometimes the broken rocker just crashes down on top of them breaking them). The point being when things reach this it dosen't matter if they were made of syran wrap or steel its all junk now. You have to prevent it in the first place and you do that by using the parts I have described above.
Will
Mine ran mid 8's in the quarter with one carb, NA, and the biggest was 488 CID. THINK about that, mid 8's, one carb, NA, and no more than 488 CID.
If years makes any difference - which it really doesn't since how long someone had done something doesn't indicated how WELL he's done it - I'm 62 years old and have been screwing on these suckas since I was in my 20's.
Many, many years ago Smokey showed that lightening the valvetrain is most benefical on the valve side. Lightening the lifter side had little value. No need to re-invent the wheel here.
I've seen titanium retainers split on street engines, but I've always run them on trailered quarter mile stuff without a single problem attributable to the valve train.
Haven't seen the latest numbers, by last time I saw them, something like over 95% of NASCAR, then Winston Cup now NEXTEL, engines ran Comp's valvetrain parts. Comp's is KING; even Harvery Crane said so! A few NASCAR teams actually have one favorite grinder at Comp who is the ONLY one who can do their cams.
Moving up to 3/8" pushrods at the rpms he's been turning is a smart move. Sure, you may get away with smaller diameter rods, but why chance it. At those roms, 5/16 rods are at their limit or beyond. Isn't once enough? Over-build your engine and you'll have far fewer breakage problems. That's just common sense.
Comparing purely race engines with those doing double duty is not easily done. These things can be as much an art and a science.
If you noticed, I stated something like "If I was doing it, here's what I'd do" and I do remember specifically saying "Your mileage may vary". What do you suppose I meant by that?
Simple: Here's how I'd do it but you can do whatever you want!
I'm not about to get into one of those "My way is better than your way" back and forth deals. It's an exercise in futility. It's his engine, and can do whatever he wants. He already followed one guy's recommendations (i.e. "Don't worry about it") and look what it got him. I don't believe he cares for a repeat??
Anyway, I've said what I had to say, so I'm through with it - on this issue at least. So don't have your Daddy send me messages stating this and that; I'll say it again, I'm through with this issue. Don't waste my time.
Jake
09-11-2007, 07:48 PM
#39
Instructor
09-11-2007, 08:04 PM
#40
Le Mans Master
Oh, and while you're at it, stay away from Beehive springs in any of the variations; I don't care who sells them or what the claims are.
But, as I've said before, it's your engine, do what you want.
Jake