jsup

Serious. I'm looking at heads and it looks like I can get a set of Trick Flow, Patriots, or something else for SINIFICANTLY less.

AFRs are over $2000. Others are $1200.

Seriously, are they REALLY worth almost twice the price?

Others boast similar flow numbers and such....

I believe it's all marketing.

LTxDave

You can buy bare AFR's for less than $1000. My AFR 210's bare, unported were around $900. I'm not sure what shape the other manufacturer's heads are in for $1200, so I cannot comment. The AFR's over $2000 are CNC ported with valves, springs, retainers, etc.

The AFR was worth it to me so that I could get a larger combustion chamber.

All the above is based on the LT4 heads I purchased and researched. It may or may not apply to their regular SBC heads.

jsup

I'm talking a complete head. I can get dual springs with titanium retainers in a 195 or 215 head for $1300. Five angle valve seats.

Titanium retainers alone are worth $200.

They aren't CNC ported, but if they were they'd be $1500. Still 100s cheaper. These would flow 260 CFM at .500 Agan, full cnc ported.

Out of curiosity, and I'm not breaking your ***** here, you cite that "you don't know what they other heads look like" but that you bought the AFR "after research".

So did your research extend past the AFR product line? If so, what else did you look at and reject and why?

After college I worked in a machine shop. With CNC capabilities to even compensate for tool wear, how much different can heads possibly be?

bogor

I´ve got the new 210 Eliminators. If looking for most flow for the $ I think AFR is hard to beat. I was originally planning to get bare Dart heads, buying good valves/springs and have them ported and this would prob have given me slightly better airflow than the AFR´s. When I added all the costs together I felt the few extra HP´s it would have netted me was not worth the extra $$.
Anyway, airflow is not everything. The facts that finally led me to buy AFR´s were the LSx style valvetrain (you can get this for other heads as well but the total cost will then prob exceed the AFRs) and the customer service provided by AFR. I tried several times to get answers from Dart regarding their heads and most of the times they never bother answering my emails. AFR has always been answering my questions promtly.

LTxDave

I bought these heads over a year ago, so I don't remember the specifics on what the pricing of the other heads available was at that time. I don't remember what came with what head at each price level. I remember the AFR LT4 210 head bare price because I bought it.

The only other options I had at that point were Trickflow and a factory casting. The factory casting was out because I needed a larger combustion chamber to lower compression. I could get a slightly larger chamber with the Trickflow, but could not get 70cc's like I did with the AFR. If I remember correctly, the AFR's also had a thicker deck surface than the Trickflows. If I was not going with the supercharger, the Trickflows would have been an option, but I chose the AFR because I they had more variations available and they fit my needs better.

As far as CNC porting and how different could the heads possibly be....They are different manufacturers, so they both don't use the same port or the same CNC program. The end results may be similar, but they won't necessarily be the same.

jsup

Thanks. I'm trying to do this right the first time and I have an innate repulsion to giving a company more money than they deserve becuase they can market a product. That goes for Harley, Zaino, and others.....

That being said, I only want to do this once. It's easier to do it right than to do it over.

So although money IS a factor, it's not the final determing factor.

I found a manufacturer of heads that on paper I can't find anything wrong with. I dial the number, a guy picks up and knows EXACTLY what he's talking about. No bullsh1t. He helped me go through the product line with the rest of my setup and made recommendations. And they actually push the cheapest product they make....they aren't trying to up sell. So as a company, they seem pretty decent.

The specs on the product are good, comparable or superior to AFR, on paper. HOWEVER, if there's compelling reasons to go AFR, I'm there. But they need to be pretty compelling if they're going to be 50% more.

BADDUCK

John, www.flatlanderracing.com has AFR 180 or 195 street heads for $1440. They don't have the HD springs, that is extra. Titanium anything on a 350 is overkill IMO. Might be worth a call to them.

cv67

Dont cheap out to save hundreds, I did. Wound up with a set of Darts which are not a bad head, just not as good....however to get me to where I wanted to be,I have close to 4k in them now . Spend the bucks and get the good stuff right off the bat.

Demonic85

AFR is good quality stuff and they stand behind their product. That being said I still think its overpriced. You can find good aluminum heads for a SBC and with a little port work can flow just as good. I paid $1200 for my Edelbrock Performers, which flow at 170cc without porting, and they're smooth on the inside. They have titanium retainers and those triple coil springs.

Of course if your going for all out potential, i'm not sure you can buy anything better than AFR. You'd have to have a monster engine though.

vader86

Overpriced, but still the best.

If youre set on doing it right once, and not touching it again, they would be the choice.

billybonesmusic

i personally couldn't afford them on this "round", but you can believe when i have a few x-tra bucks im gonna sell the ones i got and put to it and buy em, AFR is without a doubt, the best factory bolt on heads in the universe. (and they are a supporting vendor of this forum and good people) my 2 cents.

jsup

Guys, I appreciate all the comments. Seriously. You have all been a tremendous help.

And it seems to be that AFR is a great head.

All I am asking, yet no one has answered, is......what makes them so much better? Why am I throwing AFR an extra $700,800, 1000?

Grease Monkey

I think it has to do with the slightly better flow numbers, the overall quality, customer service, and weight.

Also, I just bought these a few minutes ago
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...ayphotohosting They are worth 2k but I just picked them up, shipped for $917. There is good deals out there

jsup

Dupe.

jsup

I can show you heads with better flow numbers...they aren't alone for flow.

Thanks for the link. I'll check those out.

Here's the problem, the Aluminum heads are 58CC. Those are 76 CC. I'd give up WAAAYY too much compression.

Zix

Stock castings vs stock castings you won't find better flow numbers for SBC heads than the AFR eliminators (in comparable intake port size of course). Now if you compare stock AFR vs. ported heads of another brand that is a different story. But also, when looking at flow numbers don't compare just the peak numbers, look at the low and mid-lift numbers because on a street engine those are more important.

About 5 years ago I spent over $3000 (I already had the heads so that price does not include their cost at all) in machine work to get my stock casting LT4 heads as good as I could get them...and when I compare my numbers to the AFR Eliminator heads they are not drastically different. My heads are still better in some areas (combustion chamber design and exhaust seats in particular) but the AFR heads are a bargain to compared to what I paid to have mine done...granted it was a long time ago and things have certainly changed!

Also the AFR heads flow great as they are out of the box AND still have plenty of metal left if you decide to have them ported out more.

Now it all comes down to what you want to do with the car. DO you want the head that can provide the MOST power out of the box? Then AFR is what you want. However if your engine is a relatively mild setup then a lot of the other heads will work for you, and might be just as good. On a more radical build the AFR will show it's legs a bit more than other heads and start running away from them though.

Zix

Those are also 220cc heads...so unless you're running a stroker they are not what you want.

Grease Monkey

The link is to the ones that I just bought. I just put that up there as an example of getting a deal on them. I paid less than half price for them off of e-bay. Just keep an eye out and pounce when you get a chance.
True...the biggest heads you can find are not always good. You want to match them to your engine. I got them because with the 383 I am building I will still be running a 10-10.5:1 compression pushing about 630hp/510tq at the flywheel

Zix

Unless you plan on running nitrous, forced induction, or spinning the motor to over 8000 RPM those numbers are WAY high.

Grease Monkey

I was thinking that too, but Dynodesktop say's that is what I sould expect. I know that it is not accurate, but still a good guideline.
I have the AFR220cc Race Heads, modified intake manifold, .030 bore, 3.75 stroke, dome KB forged pistons, 1.6 roller rockers, and a few other go fast goodies. I don't think it is too far off from what I will get... however it will be going over 8k.