C-4 Now

Waiting to see the numbers! My experiences with buying the item with the most advertising has not always turned out well. Glad to see your listening to a respected professional!! Long ago learned that the winning motor builders don't spend much time bench racing! Please keep up the post, and know that many of us don't think only one product will work!!!

Orr89rocz

no they are using those heads because AFR doesnt make a 15-18 degree head. AFR is HARD to beat for a STREET 23 degree head out of the box but when it comes to higher end race stuff, brodix/dart/etc are top dogs

i'm biased as i like the way my AFR's are performing on a street motor. 11.50's at 118 in the heat so far with loads more left in it. Plus its got a nitrous friendly cam and slightly wider ring gaps for the sauce


good luck on this build, you should see your goals with those head flow numbers. that cam will be tame on the street too. nice combo. its not all about the heads you are using, its about how well the port is designed and a professional port job will work great no matter what head its on

TenSecondZ

http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...t-volumes.html

I think you will be VERY interested in reading this comprehensive write up David Vizard has done using the Dart Pro 1 castings. Dynos 4 sizes of the Dart heads.....

Looks like your 215cc is a good choice ,, on the 383 in the article the 200 were best. Your cam is small for that size of motor so you will probably make peak power <6000 rpm again so this matches the 215 vs 230cc head.

Good luck...

jsup

out of the box, perhaps. Brodix and Dart have TONS of meat left to port, AFR doesn't. A ported Brodix or Dart ported head will smoke the AFRs all day long. No questions, no arguments. Period, fact of life. As much of a fact as gravity...

There's no where to go with an AFR in terms of porting. Brodix and Dart have tons of room left to port. That is exactly why high end applications use them, yes even 23 degree applications.

SO, yes, AFR can be out flowed with a $300 port job on either one of those heads.....it does not take much porting to get either one of these heads to AFR ADVERTISED levels. I use the term ADVERTISED becuase we all know that that's worth.

Just ask the armchair motor builders. They picked up this month's edition of "hot rod" and now they are experts....

They talked to people who "walked the walk"...I guess building five or six identical motors makes one an expert these days and diminishes decades of proven results. But wtf do they know?

Anyway, any and all of these heads are good heads. Some for other reasons than others.

If you want to see what I have an issue with, click on my screen name. This new PM scheme leaves PMs public I guess. Don't have the kinks worked out yet.

I am a moron becuase I chose to do research and consult REAL motor builders (note that's BUILDERS with an "S") and not drink the interweb Kool Aide....from some internet jocky who wouldn't know a torque wrench from an a-hole.

I'll have this motor started and finished in 30 days. Many of these arm chair experts have been through rendition after rendition of their motor. Ya know, this part is best, that part is best, etc.... yet the motor never goes together and never gets in a car.

But when it does....someday..... you watch.

jsup

Thanks. I agree the cam is a bit light, however, I need to sit in traffic with the AC running. I don't mind giving a little up for that.

Orr89rocz

thats interesting... so much for private messages lol But i wouldnt get all upset about the issue. if you feel AFR is overrated then thats your opinion. most of the cars i've seen with a proper engine combo built around those heads have worked well. I've seen flow bench results on the street heads that match advertised.

I chose them as i didnt want to buy a head thats 200-300 bucks cheaper with inferior springs/valves out of the box, and have to have them ported by a professional to get the numbers i would need for my power goals.


Your motor is gonna rip if those heads do flow those numbers and that cam has enough lift to reach those numbers

jsup

Look, I'm not saying anything is over rated.

I am saying that each product has it's application

and ALL are equally as good for what they do given the build

Some people can't seem to admit that.

Red Tornado

my one time experience confirms this. blew my head gaskets in about 10,000 mi. of use. mechanic says the castings suck. we're going old school and special order gaskets from fel-pro with raised firing rings that are being machine-matched to my suckazz AFR castings (machining at edges of chambers, called "receiver grooves"). this is the old school way of forcing a tighter squeeze, usually reserved for blower motors. WTF knows if it will work. if it doesn't, i have no love in me left to care & the entire goddamn car is getting sold as is, F it all, and i'm off the C6/Z land down the road.

john, this post wasn't meant to hijack. i just wanted to share another bad AFR saga. the castings are inferior. i should have listened 3 years ago. some luck out, some don't. and i'm just one another didn't.

RandyJ75

Interesting reading. Good luck w/ the build.

convas

Personlally I like following each build thread and if the combol's are different more the better so keep posting.

I would not get to concerned about other peoples opinions, if you are happy with your direction thats all that counts.

neat

I dunno, 118 MPH isn't really impressive for an aftermarket head engine. Jonecap is trapping 118 with stock LT4 heads and a hotcam. If 118 MPH is all an AFR headed C4 can muster, especially on a car with more than stock cubes, that is pretty telling as to the heads capabilities. I'm not saying AFR heads don't put up good numbers, but using 118 MPH as a justification to their greatness is a poor example; especially when there are stock headed cars putting up the same MPH.

I haven't ever talked with a builder (only spoken with 2 or 3 directly about heads) that didn't like AFR's stuff. Most of the AFR headed cars I've seen at the track run pretty good, but I've seen lots of non-AFR cars run good too. There's lots more to the build than the heads, and fighting about which is best doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Flow numbers, IMO, are kinda worthless. They can get you in the ball park for selecting the right head for your combination, but there are just too many other variables. Beyond that, published numbers are pretty suspect anyway. Here's a pretty good read on why cylinder head flow numbers shouldn't be regarded as the be all, end all, of head selection:

http://utahmusclecars.com/index.php?showtopic=3338

I'm pretty sure that all the SBC heads out there come from 1 or 2 foundries, so all the castings (the blanks anyway) at one point are probably all the same.

USAsOnlyWay

No, it shows "Public messages" publicly, private messages are still private.

Red Tornado

mine came from the "soft" foundry

in the end, it's all good.

jsup

I was told each company has it's own castings.....

Also, even if they come from the same foundry does not mean they can't have different QC requirements.

0Tony Mamo @ AFR

You guys might have an interest in reading this....(at least the ones reading this thread that actually have an open mind)

Same flowbench....same author....likely the same engine used for testing

http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...er-masses.html

The results speak for themselves and the truth shall set some of you free....

The largest difference between the two engines (besides the heads obviously) is the mechanical versus the hydraulic roller, but when you account for the lash, the cam in the AFR headed engine wasn't that much larger and while a larger cam might have boosted HP at the expense of TQ, the entire curve is alot stronger. While admitedly this is not an apples to apples comparison, there is enough information here to raise an eyebrow or two.

So I say welcome to the Internet where everyone has an opinion and where unfortunately, the amount of bad information spread can sometimes easily outweigh any of the truths. The reality is some people have hidden agenda's.....some are just regurgitating what they heard or read (likely in another thread loaded with mixed information) but either way sifting thru all the information out there is a daunting task....especially if you have little actual technical experience.

To those ranting negatives about our product, have any of you even seen the latest stuff from our company?? (I'm not trying to be funny but actually ask a serious question)

I don't have time now but I will hopefully stop back and address some of the bad information found in this thread as none of it pertains to our new Eliminator heads (and I question how much truly relates to our former product either).

For those not familiar, our recently released (100% clean sheet design) all new 23' Eliminator heads are state of the art with aerospace quality castings, lightweight 8mm valves and lightweight springs and retainers, not to mention the most efficient port and chamber designs of any "bolt on" style 23' castings. Given similar sized runners they dominate the competition in airflow and velocity (which packs the cylinder with air and fuel enhancing torque and power output also helping to reduce reversion).

The bottom line is our new street heads flow as much as many of our competitors much larger race heads and our out of the box race heads are achieving numbers only the best extremely optimized ported castings might have flirted with (a very small percentile of whats actually out there....very expensive, hard to actually find, and extremely cost prohibitive). Once again we are discussing 23' heads with standard port configurations (non raised runner conventional design).

Guys....the key to a powerful street engine is the right combination, and at the heart of every right combination pertaining to dual purpose street/strip vehicles is an efficient cylinder head that's conservative in volume but flows alot of air....not an easy task as the two are usually mutually exclusive of one another (its very challenging to move alot of air in general and even more so thru a small port....it takes countless hours, in fact months of serious R&D and flowbench time to make that happen....ask me how I know).

In fact we easily invested 12-18 months before our first production Eliminator casting saw the light of day but the results were worth every minute. The more real fact finding you do the more you will want to own a set....

That's it for now....PLEASE read the link I provided at the top of the page and compare you own notes to the other similar link provided in this thread. The results of that testing speaks volumes....especially because it was handled by an unbiased independent source....one of the most respected in the country as a matter of fact.

-Tony

PS....Here is the latest testing with our higher flowing 195 Comp ported Eliminator....look for the flowtest results, additional dyno data, and alot more information in general pertaining to the Comp ported 195's in the up coming month or so.

http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...tor-heads.html

jsup

Hey Tony, thanks for the response. My rantings have little to do with you or your products. It has more to do with the rantings of self proclaimed internet experts.

I'd just like to point something out.. All of the tests above, correct me if I'm wrong, are out of box tests. Fact of the matter is a large proportion of the people who buy competitive heads, for example Brodix or Dart, have them ported to their application. There is a TON of aluminum on those heads that can come out. Once the porting is done, as expected, the flow numbers and performance come up dramatically and can equal or surpass AFR out of box numbers.

I am taking this information again, from a "rocket scientist" who builds sprint car motors which run 9K all day long who went through the pains of explaining to me the effects of cross sectional efficientcy...as well as other people who actually build motors for a living.

My point is that yes, out of box is one thing, real life applications is another. Reality is most people who buy Dart or Brodix are not the budget conscious group we experience here and will throw a few bucks at it to get what they want.

Honestly, I was >< this close to picking up 210 Eliminators.

I completely agree with you on the information sourced from the internet, which is why I tried to do my research somewhere else. My intent is to report back what I have learned and hope to have an intelligent conversation about that information. Unfortunately, that appears to be an impossible task. I know a guy isn't a discussion. We have guys here with Edlebrock heads running 11s, another who GAINED performance moving from AFR to Dart. Seems like people here would prefer to compensate for phallic deficiency through mob mentality acceptance, than discuss merits. Well, it is what it is.

I really need to rely on the advice of my engine builder, who is no slouch, to some extent, and I'll be taking his guidance. For $1500 I'm getting the Dart heads with the chambers cleaned up they will flow more than enough for this build.

Thank you for your response.

jsup

Hey all, just wanted to let you know I got three personal phone calls last night and a ton of IMs asking that I keep you all posted on the progress.

The good news is I lost my job due to layoffs, which give me a solid month before I start my new job (which I had before I got laid off) a portion of my severance is going toward this motor. Pat agreed to let me hang around the shop and snap pictures and such.

I appreciate all the attention to this project and will continue to post my progress for all of you that are interested.

88BlackZ-51

That sounds kool!

Demonic85

which is why I went with Edelbrock heads with 170cc runners on my TPI engine. If I decided to go with a mini ram or something similar the AFR heads would have been on top of my list. I really like the valve setup on the AFR's.

Beach Bum

?? 118 mph in August air at a non-sea level track in a 3400 lb auto equipped 383 F-body is pretty darn stout..... (Translation: In fall air, he'll be running 120 mph, hit a east coast coastal sea level track and see 121 mph, put a manual transmission in it like the LT-4's and he'd be seeing 122-123 mph traps, lose another 1-2 hundred pounds and he could see 124-125 mph traps..... out of a hyd roller cammed efi car that doesn't see the north side of 6500 rpm...)

That is very impressive.....