The "AFR thread" to end all others....
#22
Melting Slicks
#23
Team Owner
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Seems to me like your complaint is "there's a-holes on CF" and "some of the a-holes love AFR". Well, both are probably pretty true. And when these a-holes post up in every cylinder head thread about AFR's, you might find that annoying. But think for a minute about how that is different from you posting in every AFR thread just to point out some people are a-holes.
The thread that spawned this one seems a prime example. The OP asked specifically about AFR's vs ported LT4's. If you want to point out there are other options, go for it. But he clearly wasn't interested in them, so let it go at that point. Now it's just another cylinder head pissing match thread.
So to that point, yes, I did not address the LT4 specifically, but the concept that there may be other products to consider.
Some people obviously want to discuss AFR as a product. But all those threads go south (not all due to you, but not all unrelated either).
#24
Le Mans Master
Tony. I just don't get it? Someone posts their potential build asking for advice and/or experience and it seems like the name calling and product bashing begins. AFRs have a tremendously good reputation here and seems like they've stood behind their product well. "Marketing Hype" heck, you'd better read it and compare, sure some of it's BS, but at least it gives you a base line to compare and gather information. Keep up the good work.
#25
Team Owner
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#26
Team Owner
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I've spoken to a lot of people here in PMs, on the phone, and in person. I have made some friends. So I think I'm ok, but that's me. If you guys are going to hate me because my opinion differs, I won't lose any sleep.
#27
Team Owner
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I'm sorry but I thought we had rules (or maybe I'm thinking of another board) that prohibited public attacks. As I've said repeatedly, if we want to discuss the performance of your cylinder heads it has to be technical (and then we can get into some in depth discussion off all the product lines and all applications). Coming on here and making statement of superiority about one product will not do much to sway those of us who don't agree with some of what you're saying.
Now I'm sorry, I don't know you personally or professionally, but coming up with that kind of response to a thread in a public forum is ridiculous. If you must intervene, do so in the thread and do so with facts. You do yourself and your reputation amongst many readers that do not have an opinion on the subject a great disservice when you start calling people out and attempting to show how much more you know (and that surely may be the case). With my background I can pull out a lot heavy math that I once used to design blended wing body aircraft and make most here feel inadequate; but what does that do other than bring them down? They surely won't take anything away from the post, and in most cases they will just "turn off".
Now I don't see how you can make the statement that your products are the "best, most efficient heads" out there (and that’s on about every page of the AFR website). From a guy that at one time worked on designing aircraft I feel that you need to do what I do when I start working on a build for someone. You have to set operational parameters! These dictate what you need and it also dictates the sacrifices you may or may not be willing to make in an attempt to further optimize the package. For example, when working on a 410 sprint car engine I start the conversation by asking what the lowest and highest RPM the engine is going see throughout the lap (on a good one that’s 7500 to somewhere around 8750-9000 depending on the driver and budget). Then we get into expectations about power, delivery, so on and so forth. What’s good for one car/drive combination is not what’s considered ideal for another driver in the same car.
Now I can already anticipate the response to that; "but my car's a street car so I don't need that level of development". If you feel that way, that's fine; but the guys that come to me want that level of development. They realize that for example, a street/strip car is really about getting down the strip and being able to cruise around (and blow some doors off), same for a road race/driver; it's all about performance at the track and still having the ability to get around town (with a little grace). So let's lay down a parameter or two for the street/strip car (one that I actually own and operate regularly). During a 1/4 mile pass the car stalls to 3300, leaves the line at 4000, and never drops below 6900 while reaching 8000 RPM. So to get these R's we have solid roller with 280*duration@50 and a total lift at the rocker of about 0.730 so on and so forth.
Now before you say anything, this engine logs 4-5K miles a year (mostly due to gas mileage) and has zero issues cruising around town (even on cold 30 winter days).
So I'll share my thought process on selecting a cylinder head for this engine;
1. The max RPM achieved requires that there be sufficient volume and cross sectional area to enable me to control the velocity going through the port. Something in the 195 realm will simply not do, due to physics.
2. The fairly aggressive camshaft and rocker combination reaches the 0.500 lift measure extremely quickly, i.e. I'm much better off having higher flow numbers from 0.400+ (where the valve spends a large percentage of it’s time) even if it means that I must give up a little flow at 0.400-.
3. With over 0.700 life and 800lbs open pressure I have to have very stout valves, seats, and retainer hardware (they take a lot of abuse just running, tons of abuse at 8000RPM). The springs also must be readily available (we go through them on average every other year depending on the ratio of passes to miles cruised). 4 It goes on and on…
Now, this is just a sample of what we start going through when selecting components for any build, and a ton of math goes into the cylinder head selection and modification process. I hope it's apparent (maybe it is and maybe I'm just in my own little performance world here) that a cylinder head is as unique to the engine package as the camshaft, and for that reason can't be selected simply on flow numbers and runner size (and any one head can’t be stated as “best” either). If it were that easy we wouldn't have fast engines and slow engines in racing. Just my .02;
Tony, I do appreciate that you take the time to represent your product here (not many professionals do); I would, however, prefer that it didn't include the names of people that disagree, or include mention of private communication between you (address their statements and beat them with facts) as this opens Pandora’s Box so to speak.
Contrary to what most think, this board is for the sharing of experiences and ideas; if you are not here to listen and learn (not directed at Tony; the rest of the forum members here) stop giving away your performance secrets. I have witnessed people who have built two or three engines disagree with professionals that have 30+ years of hardcore racing experience. It's not an issue that you disagree, that's perfectly fine, it's that you did it purely on opinion and never had either the want, or the technical ability to do so properly. I'm out of time for this morning (I’ll go down as the longest post in history I think), I'll check back later. Have a good weekend everybody.
Now I'm sorry, I don't know you personally or professionally, but coming up with that kind of response to a thread in a public forum is ridiculous. If you must intervene, do so in the thread and do so with facts. You do yourself and your reputation amongst many readers that do not have an opinion on the subject a great disservice when you start calling people out and attempting to show how much more you know (and that surely may be the case). With my background I can pull out a lot heavy math that I once used to design blended wing body aircraft and make most here feel inadequate; but what does that do other than bring them down? They surely won't take anything away from the post, and in most cases they will just "turn off".
Now I don't see how you can make the statement that your products are the "best, most efficient heads" out there (and that’s on about every page of the AFR website). From a guy that at one time worked on designing aircraft I feel that you need to do what I do when I start working on a build for someone. You have to set operational parameters! These dictate what you need and it also dictates the sacrifices you may or may not be willing to make in an attempt to further optimize the package. For example, when working on a 410 sprint car engine I start the conversation by asking what the lowest and highest RPM the engine is going see throughout the lap (on a good one that’s 7500 to somewhere around 8750-9000 depending on the driver and budget). Then we get into expectations about power, delivery, so on and so forth. What’s good for one car/drive combination is not what’s considered ideal for another driver in the same car.
Now I can already anticipate the response to that; "but my car's a street car so I don't need that level of development". If you feel that way, that's fine; but the guys that come to me want that level of development. They realize that for example, a street/strip car is really about getting down the strip and being able to cruise around (and blow some doors off), same for a road race/driver; it's all about performance at the track and still having the ability to get around town (with a little grace). So let's lay down a parameter or two for the street/strip car (one that I actually own and operate regularly). During a 1/4 mile pass the car stalls to 3300, leaves the line at 4000, and never drops below 6900 while reaching 8000 RPM. So to get these R's we have solid roller with 280*duration@50 and a total lift at the rocker of about 0.730 so on and so forth.
Now before you say anything, this engine logs 4-5K miles a year (mostly due to gas mileage) and has zero issues cruising around town (even on cold 30 winter days).
So I'll share my thought process on selecting a cylinder head for this engine;
1. The max RPM achieved requires that there be sufficient volume and cross sectional area to enable me to control the velocity going through the port. Something in the 195 realm will simply not do, due to physics.
2. The fairly aggressive camshaft and rocker combination reaches the 0.500 lift measure extremely quickly, i.e. I'm much better off having higher flow numbers from 0.400+ (where the valve spends a large percentage of it’s time) even if it means that I must give up a little flow at 0.400-.
3. With over 0.700 life and 800lbs open pressure I have to have very stout valves, seats, and retainer hardware (they take a lot of abuse just running, tons of abuse at 8000RPM). The springs also must be readily available (we go through them on average every other year depending on the ratio of passes to miles cruised). 4 It goes on and on…
Now, this is just a sample of what we start going through when selecting components for any build, and a ton of math goes into the cylinder head selection and modification process. I hope it's apparent (maybe it is and maybe I'm just in my own little performance world here) that a cylinder head is as unique to the engine package as the camshaft, and for that reason can't be selected simply on flow numbers and runner size (and any one head can’t be stated as “best” either). If it were that easy we wouldn't have fast engines and slow engines in racing. Just my .02;
Tony, I do appreciate that you take the time to represent your product here (not many professionals do); I would, however, prefer that it didn't include the names of people that disagree, or include mention of private communication between you (address their statements and beat them with facts) as this opens Pandora’s Box so to speak.
Contrary to what most think, this board is for the sharing of experiences and ideas; if you are not here to listen and learn (not directed at Tony; the rest of the forum members here) stop giving away your performance secrets. I have witnessed people who have built two or three engines disagree with professionals that have 30+ years of hardcore racing experience. It's not an issue that you disagree, that's perfectly fine, it's that you did it purely on opinion and never had either the want, or the technical ability to do so properly. I'm out of time for this morning (I’ll go down as the longest post in history I think), I'll check back later. Have a good weekend everybody.
Tell me, what is so wrong with that?
#28
Le Mans Master
Nobody hates you jsup,and we're all interested in your build. It just seems like you stoop to levels you don't need to (name calling), and bashing others because of their product selection. You have your opinion, others have theirs, why not leave it at that.
#30
Le Mans Master
After reading the forum for a while people ask the question "which AFR head should I get. Not "which head would best fit my application".
...
So if by going south you mean trying to spur discussion and come up with the "right" answer for the question, then yes, I am responsible.
...
So if by going south you mean trying to spur discussion and come up with the "right" answer for the question, then yes, I am responsible.
Your whole reply is pretty much a straw-man argument. The notion that discussion is better than everyone just spitting out the same old thing is great, who would argue with that? However, that only explains your first post in the thread. You point out there are other options, the OP even said he was only interested in AFRs vs what he has now.
The other 3 pages of drama is what, you keeping it real?
#33
Race Director
Some vendors here will call the mods in the cleanse a thread if anything at all is posted that they don't like about their product. I really hate that so this is better IMO.
#34
Burning Brakes
From a guy that at one time worked on designing aircraft I feel that you need to do what I do when I start working on a build for someone. You have to set operational parameters! These dictate what you need and it also dictates the sacrifices you may or may not be willing to make in an attempt to further optimize the package. For example, when working on a 410 sprint car engine I start the conversation by asking what the lowest and highest RPM the engine is going see throughout the lap (on a good one that’s 7500 to somewhere around 8750-9000 depending on the driver and budget). Then we get into expectations about power, delivery, so on and so forth. What’s good for one car/drive combination is not what’s considered ideal for another driver in the same car.
Now I can already anticipate the response to that; "but my car's a street car so I don't need that level of development". If you feel that way, that's fine; but the guys that come to me want that level of development. They realize that for example, a street/strip car is really about getting down the strip and being able to cruise around (and blow some doors off), same for a road race/driver; it's all about performance at the track and still having the ability to get around town (with a little grace)
Now I can already anticipate the response to that; "but my car's a street car so I don't need that level of development". If you feel that way, that's fine; but the guys that come to me want that level of development. They realize that for example, a street/strip car is really about getting down the strip and being able to cruise around (and blow some doors off), same for a road race/driver; it's all about performance at the track and still having the ability to get around town (with a little grace)
Some budget or mild street car builds dont need attention to detail and ppl will be happy with that. Some however, and i encourage most, engine builds should have attention to detail and development inorder to get the most out of the combination and be as efficient as possible. It also has to meet your expectations as closely as possible. This is the only way to be truely happy with your build, if it meets all your expectations.
And on the side note, your example build doesnt sound very good at all. a car that will be in the 6900-8000 rpm range during a run will not really be a streetable car, or atleast shouldnt be street driven. that car will want more along the lines of 5000-5500 stall, not leaving the line at 4000. I do about that in my street 383. A car using power in the 7000 rpm range will have peak torque in the 5-6K range for sure.
Back to the AFR head story, it just so happens to be that the AFR 195cc's are the most versatile head around. a good port velocity and good low lift flowing 190-200cc head will fit most builds from 355's to 427's. AFR 195's show some great qualities as mentioned. Good chamber, good velocity, good flow at all lift ranges. This all makes for a versatile head and a step above most of the competition. I've seen the old and new 195s on motors from 350's to 406's and most all of them ran really strong. You cant argue with a performance range like that in one single head. For ppl doing a stock shortblock build and then upgrading later to more cubes/compression, they can easily buy 1 head now and use it with great success on both builds. That is just one of many reasons to choose AFR
Last edited by Orr89rocz; 08-30-2008 at 04:23 PM.
#35
Le Mans Master
Those of us that are in the market for heads should and do logically do their homework before the purchase. We inquire (of other Forum members) their experience and look for information.
Here is some older comparisons of many heads and their flows at different lifts....
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com...fo/heads1.html
This does not include the latest versions of the AFR products.
And here is another site to look at for information....
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc
You have to look at these numbers and decide on what RPM range your engine will be running at and what kind of lift you will have with your cam. If your cam isn't going over a .500 lift, the numbers above .500 don't have a lot of meaning. AND you can't just look at a single number like the flow at .500 ....... what is happening between .100 and .500 with the flow.
If your budget can't stand the expense of AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow, then go with the best you can get for your application and your money. A good set of heads is an excellent starting point for any build, but remember it is ALL the other things combined. You have to get the air/fuel to the heads and then out. Your cam will also have a major impact. If you have a old stock L98 and just change heads to AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow and do nothing else to get the air in and out, you WILL BE DISAPOINTED.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in some cases your engine builder (if you are having some one build for you) may be a distributor for certain manufacturers and WILL make more money off of your build by using products that cost them less money and they can sell to you with a bigger profit margin. So just because "your builder" tells you that XXX heads are the only way to go may not be the best for your application or money.
This Forum has such a large base of members that we benefit from their experience, knowledge and applications. As an informed member, we have to look at the information being presented and make the decision ...... discontent ......head up our a** ....too many of these or that this is good information . After all there are member that just like to see their name/post on the net and like to try and get in the last word at any cost.
AFR puts out a good product, and Tony has supported the Forum and its members and our individual builds with good valued information. He has replied to my PM's on a timely basis and phone calls have always been answered on a professional basis with good information. If you mention you are a Forum member he seems to go into overdrive and goes the extra distance to be sure your build goes as expected.
Hey, I am out of here.....buying the air foil for my TB to add that extra 50 tire smoking HP
Here is some older comparisons of many heads and their flows at different lifts....
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com...fo/heads1.html
This does not include the latest versions of the AFR products.
And here is another site to look at for information....
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc
You have to look at these numbers and decide on what RPM range your engine will be running at and what kind of lift you will have with your cam. If your cam isn't going over a .500 lift, the numbers above .500 don't have a lot of meaning. AND you can't just look at a single number like the flow at .500 ....... what is happening between .100 and .500 with the flow.
If your budget can't stand the expense of AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow, then go with the best you can get for your application and your money. A good set of heads is an excellent starting point for any build, but remember it is ALL the other things combined. You have to get the air/fuel to the heads and then out. Your cam will also have a major impact. If you have a old stock L98 and just change heads to AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow and do nothing else to get the air in and out, you WILL BE DISAPOINTED.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in some cases your engine builder (if you are having some one build for you) may be a distributor for certain manufacturers and WILL make more money off of your build by using products that cost them less money and they can sell to you with a bigger profit margin. So just because "your builder" tells you that XXX heads are the only way to go may not be the best for your application or money.
This Forum has such a large base of members that we benefit from their experience, knowledge and applications. As an informed member, we have to look at the information being presented and make the decision ...... discontent ......head up our a** ....too many of these or that this is good information . After all there are member that just like to see their name/post on the net and like to try and get in the last word at any cost.
AFR puts out a good product, and Tony has supported the Forum and its members and our individual builds with good valued information. He has replied to my PM's on a timely basis and phone calls have always been answered on a professional basis with good information. If you mention you are a Forum member he seems to go into overdrive and goes the extra distance to be sure your build goes as expected.
Hey, I am out of here.....buying the air foil for my TB to add that extra 50 tire smoking HP
#36
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
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And the ford lovers to chime in with copy and paste passages or verbatim quotes from the Ford brochure when they have no clue what that means to the OP or his application, I would hope someone would ask...WHY? By asking WHY also, perhaps I'd learn something I didn't already know, but that is a very short list.
Last edited by jsup; 08-30-2008 at 05:10 PM.
#37
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
Posts: 35,065
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Those of us that are in the market for heads should and do logically do their homework before the purchase. We inquire (of other Forum members) their experience and look for information.
Here is some older comparisons of many heads and their flows at different lifts....
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com...fo/heads1.html
This does not include the latest versions of the AFR products.
And here is another site to look at for information....
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc
You have to look at these numbers and decide on what RPM range your engine will be running at and what kind of lift you will have with your cam. If your cam isn't going over a .500 lift, the numbers above .500 don't have a lot of meaning. AND you can't just look at a single number like the flow at .500 ....... what is happening between .100 and .500 with the flow.
If your budget can't stand the expense of AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow, then go with the best you can get for your application and your money. A good set of heads is an excellent starting point for any build, but remember it is ALL the other things combined. You have to get the air/fuel to the heads and then out. Your cam will also have a major impact. If you have a old stock L98 and just change heads to AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow and do nothing else to get the air in and out, you WILL BE DISAPOINTED.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in some cases your engine builder (if you are having some one build for you) may be a distributor for certain manufacturers and WILL make more money off of your build by using products that cost them less money and they can sell to you with a bigger profit margin. So just because "your builder" tells you that XXX heads are the only way to go may not be the best for your application or money.
This Forum has such a large base of members that we benefit from their experience, knowledge and applications. As an informed member, we have to look at the information being presented and make the decision ...... discontent ......head up our a** ....too many of these or that this is good information . After all there are member that just like to see their name/post on the net and like to try and get in the last word at any cost.
AFR puts out a good product, and Tony has supported the Forum and its members and our individual builds with good valued information. He has replied to my PM's on a timely basis and phone calls have always been answered on a professional basis with good information. If you mention you are a Forum member he seems to go into overdrive and goes the extra distance to be sure your build goes as expected.
Hey, I am out of here.....buying the air foil for my TB to add that extra 50 tire smoking HP
Here is some older comparisons of many heads and their flows at different lifts....
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com...fo/heads1.html
This does not include the latest versions of the AFR products.
And here is another site to look at for information....
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc
You have to look at these numbers and decide on what RPM range your engine will be running at and what kind of lift you will have with your cam. If your cam isn't going over a .500 lift, the numbers above .500 don't have a lot of meaning. AND you can't just look at a single number like the flow at .500 ....... what is happening between .100 and .500 with the flow.
If your budget can't stand the expense of AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow, then go with the best you can get for your application and your money. A good set of heads is an excellent starting point for any build, but remember it is ALL the other things combined. You have to get the air/fuel to the heads and then out. Your cam will also have a major impact. If you have a old stock L98 and just change heads to AFR, Brodix or Trick Flow and do nothing else to get the air in and out, you WILL BE DISAPOINTED.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in some cases your engine builder (if you are having some one build for you) may be a distributor for certain manufacturers and WILL make more money off of your build by using products that cost them less money and they can sell to you with a bigger profit margin. So just because "your builder" tells you that XXX heads are the only way to go may not be the best for your application or money.
This Forum has such a large base of members that we benefit from their experience, knowledge and applications. As an informed member, we have to look at the information being presented and make the decision ...... discontent ......head up our a** ....too many of these or that this is good information . After all there are member that just like to see their name/post on the net and like to try and get in the last word at any cost.
AFR puts out a good product, and Tony has supported the Forum and its members and our individual builds with good valued information. He has replied to my PM's on a timely basis and phone calls have always been answered on a professional basis with good information. If you mention you are a Forum member he seems to go into overdrive and goes the extra distance to be sure your build goes as expected.
Hey, I am out of here.....buying the air foil for my TB to add that extra 50 tire smoking HP
I would just like to point out that sometimes an inferior part (heads, cam, intake, whatever) may be required to use other parts.
In your example of budget, if going with cheaper heads allows you to also do a cam and roller rockers, at the end of the day you'll be net better off. A point I made 100 times and no one seems to want to hear it. A typical response would be buy the more expensive XXXX and sacrifice the other parts. Not always the right move. There are factors that determine parts choice, budget and need are only two.
#38
Le Mans Master
NO, what I am saying is that when someone says "what kind of Ford should I buy" and I ask the question, why Ford? OR Did you look at Chevy or Dodge, I shouldn't get my *** kicked by Ford lovers.
And the ford lovers to chime in with copy and paste passages or verbatim quotes from the Ford brochure when they have no clue what that means to the OP or his application, I would hope someone would ask...WHY? By asking WHY also, perhaps I'd learn something I didn't already know, but that is a very short list.
And the ford lovers to chime in with copy and paste passages or verbatim quotes from the Ford brochure when they have no clue what that means to the OP or his application, I would hope someone would ask...WHY? By asking WHY also, perhaps I'd learn something I didn't already know, but that is a very short list.
Now had he asked "LT4 vs aftermarket heads?" and some people popped in with AFR you are more then welcome to bring up any manufacturer you'd like. Now that whole thread has turned into a bunch of garbage though because it has strayed WAY too far off topic. That's the issue some people are having.