pr0zac

that is an oxymoron. max effort on a budget...lol

Orr89rocz

AFR 203's, those are the older race ready heads. They are comparable to LT4 heads...actually maybe a few cfm more depending on where you get yoru LT4 numbers from. I've seen 240-260 cfm for that and older AFR's i do believe were in the 260-280 range, not liek the new setups they have today.

Given head flow is somewhat similar i see some things that stand out. 9.7 to 1 compression vs 10.4. 10.4 wins in the power department. Thats one reason the 355 happens to be faster. I bet it was making abit more hp than the 383 based on compression alone.

that cam is nice cam, but on the 355 it will peak higher rpm. Combine that with better gearing from the manual trans and less drivetrain loss, the power is adding up for the vette and the area under the curve (powerwise) is better. manual trans will keep the car in the power band much more effectively than the 700r4. Auto cars eat up more power than manuals and generally manuals with same motor will trap higher. My buddy went 125.x with stalled auto. Same motor with T56 no other changes, same gearin etc went 127. Better gearing for more effective power band, less drivetrain loss added up to much better power transmitted to the ground

biggest thing i see is that 383 will peak by 6000-6300 rpms tops. I know as i've seen builds like that and my 383 peaks there with similar cam. 4.57 gears for auto will put you in 4th gear by the traps considering you arent running a ridiculously tall tire.
4 gears thru the auto is not what you want for best times. What were you shifting that?

Mail order tune for both combos further brings the point that one was off more than the other and i'm willing to bet the 383 tune was less optimal than the LT4 car as cam only tunes from mail order guys are much more popular/efficient than heads/stroker builds.

Race weights look about similar between the two unless that 3200-3400 lb weight for the camaro is without you in it. the vette i'm guessin is near 3300-3400 with you in it. somewhat a slight advantage vette if that raceweight was the case for the camaro

The weather conditions on both runs? Density altitude? big differences there

lastly, i dont know how you didnt pull off a 1.6 or better 60 foot with that stall, drag radials and that gearing. 1.8 is pathetic so that combo has more in it for sure.

Same goes to the vette. drag radials there that car would run good times too, but in summary i believe thats because the vette was able to make more power under the curve had better gearing and thus was able to stay in the power band much more effectively and thus ran better 'trap' speeds.

same bore size with similar flowing heads and same cam, hp will be near the same for the two builds. The big difference is the stroke will make more torque. Alot of same heads/cam LT1 cars but on 355 or 383 will have similar power numbers but the biggest difference is the torque. But torque doesnt always help your situation at the track as gearing and such can effect where your at in your powerband.

You have to really dissect your runs to see whats going on before you can compare things.

Orr89rocz

No, for a 1 time only upgrade for medium high builds Ik's work well. plus he can get other things to complete the build. I said i agreed with you there but again you try to make it an arguement. I agree with you and you still argue. silly IF you arent willing to spend the money for heads which are the number 1 power making component on a motor, then your leaving power on the table but ask yourself how much is enough for me? For me, i am always looking for more power. Made 400whp and have less than 1500 miles onthe motor and i'm already changing it up for more. I'll run it till winter with nitrous for 550whp then next year its turbo for 600whp, then build a 800+whp on the side. Its never enough and for that kind of build, you need some great heads and AFR out the box fits my build goals which are high power stuff. money was not saved, it was spent. Pay to play

The IK's, Thats a cheaper head yes, and not quite as good as AFR i feel. But you can go 600 dollar a pair vortecs and make same power or near that same power as the inferior
heads, so why support those other heads. Seems to me you should consider ported L98's or vortecs for budget mild hp builds and go all out for big builds and out the box its hard to beat the AFR's that what i'm saying


Maybe thats the case, you probly can have a set of heads worked for that price to out flow AFR and out produce AFR in the power area. But most street cars under 6700 rpms wont need that extra flow as AFR already has under 7000 rpm covered so AFR is greater than those 3K heads now. AFR would be considered the cheap out, i never said cheap was bad, i compare head features to head features and price is only considered when you consider your power goals and on a more heavy hp street car or mild race car, features for the goals outweighs price to an extent. Since most heads are 1300 bucks or so, AFR's only 100-150 more, its wise to spend that extra to get the better features and maybe a possibility of 10-15 more hp. NOw is 10-15 hp worth 200 bucks? Yes. If those 3K heads would make 10-15 hp more than AFR is that worth it? to some maybe but not for me. 1500 for 10 hp is not worth it.


see above. they may outperform but by how much more? 10-20-30HP? how much hp gain vs the extra 1000-1500 bucks more is worth it? I highly doubt any ported head out there with similar port size on same motor will make more than 10-20hp more than AFR's. I wouldnt pay 1500 for that gain unless i was racing and every advantage is worth it



This moves way to fast for me, i'm done here. good night and backslash thread for now i guess

You kids go to sleep now or go read some more engine books, threads, etc to learn some more. You realllllly need to

pr0zac

under the curve. how is a 4k stall putting that motor under any curve? that camaro motor was in the cam from the moment the light turned green?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1991-z28_46964.htm



don't mind the retards holding the camera. they were all i had to work with..lol

1989TransAm

Orr you are trying to make a rational argument against someone who is irrational. No way you are going to win by lowering yourself to his level.

This thread does have some good information in it from a number of good and informative sources. You just have make your way through the trash.

Beach Bum

You're only running 12.5 @ 110 mph with that set-up ?

pr0zac

afr's are sweet huh

M. Schumacher

This is kinda amusing. I happen upon this thread which is obviously getting bigger and bigger to see what it was all about. I didn't even know what an AFR was. ( I admit I assumed it was a feature of the car, like ASR) And what do I find but this gigantic argument going on.


J, that's the price we pay who are iconoclasts. I've come to consider it a badge of honor and distinction.

Beach Bum

You blame it on the AFR's, I blame it on you.....

If somebody can't make a 3200-3400 lb 383 AFR headed motor run faster than 12.5 @ 110 mph, you don't know what you're doing.... quite frankly, we've had the same set-up, in a full weight C4 corvette on this forum run 7 mph faster and 9 tenths quicker than you..... with a stock 80,000+ shortblock and a tight 2800 rpm converter.

jsup

All the credit, none of the blame!!!!

Sorry BB, just struck me as funny!!!

jsup

That right there folks is what we call irony.

jsup

Thank you sir, as someone without a dog in this fight I assume that means you understand my point and as an "outsider" to the thread seems to have come to the conclusions that things are the way I see it.

I appreciate your support, if that is what it is. OH, and there are plenty of PMs from people who do support my position and just don't want to post here because they don't want to be piled on, or they feel they are pissing in the wind. I however, am not clear thinking enough to recognize that.

5abivt

My stock 93. 1.6 rrs, crane ignition, march pullies , 4.09 gears long tube headers stock exhaust w/no cats. = 12.8 @ 110 mph w/ 2.2 60 ft.

With all that power you are trapping imo what a 320 hp motor is. SOmething is clearly wrong here.

Beach Bum

Forum member Ralph with his old set-up: AFR 190 cylinder heads out of the box, non cnc ported, LPE cam with 219/219 @ 050", stock shortblock 350, 1 5/8" headers, Superram and a too tight in my opinion 2800 rpm converter..... 11.6 @ 117 mph.... very mild docile set-up that easily ran high 11's, even in the summer heat.

Myself: 383, LPE cam with 219/219 @ .050", 1 3/4" headers, too tight 3000 rpm converter and Superram with "ported DART 2 Cylinder heads"
Best ET ever after literally 1000 passes = 11.55 @ 117 mph on a 200 ft actual elevation track.

Exact same set-up as above, except with Ralphs AFR 190 cylinder heads: 11.32 @ 119.8 mph on a 900 ft actual elevation track in summer air. In addition, in my first 50 passes with the AFR's, I had literally 30-40 timeslips quicker than my best pass with the ported Dart 2's.

I ran the ported Dart 2 cylinder heads from 97 to 03, never ran quicker with my 270lb self in the seat than 11.55..... and 1000 passes in that set-up is being a bit conservative.... I raced a hell of a lot. Purchased Ralph's AFR heads, ran a tenth better at first, I thought due to better air......but had a blown head gasket at the time and didn't know it.... was just a pin hole behind # 8.... changed head gasket, instantly ran 2 tenths better on average than Dart cylinder heads despite racing at a track 700 ft higher than the Darts...... quite frankly, the AFR's were a solid 2.5 tenths quicker on my 383 than the Darts. I think that set-up in good air on a true sea level track and with a looser converter had a legitimate shot at high 10's, and very probable if I put a lighter weight pilot in the seat..... which isn't so bad considering the motor never saw the north side of 6000 rpm with the very docile 219 cam.

I realize the above is not an eye opening incredible running machine..... it wasn't, it was just a daily driver that I bracket raced every weekend..... it was an rpm limited motor with the Superram, but due to this, you could run respectable numbers with a tight converter and very little gear.

This is why I personally recommend AFR cylinder heads for hyd cam applications..... they give me security... I "know" that if my motor doesn't perform, its not the AFR cylinder heads, I look else where.....

But, to be fair, I have no complaints about those Dart cylinder heads, never gave me a problem once in my many years of racing them and quite frankly, I won a lot of bracket race events with them...... but they were slower than the AFR's.

Jsup, the only thing I will say, is that I don't have a problem with you challenging any performance product... in fact to a certain degree you should, but please don't call me a lemming for advising somebody that AFR cylinder heads are a good choice..... I'm not, my recommendation, like many others are based upon direct experience of racing the products for many, many years. I have no attachment to Tony @ AFR and to be honest, I'll run the best cylinder head I can afford regardless of the brand and if its somebody else, so be it..... I'll buy it.

Right now, for most street/strip applications, AFR cylinder heads in my opinion are the best choice.... you'll run quicker with them in my opinion! With some set-ups, that might only be a hundreths or two, others, they could literally pick up multiple tenths.....dependant on what cylinder head they were running before.... Jsup, if you don't like my opinion, thats okay with me, don't take it. You'll run great with the Dart 215's you selected in my opinion, especially considering anyway you slice it, you're somewhere around doubling your HP..... thus you're gonna be happy.

On a final note, when Tony made his comparative offer, I kind of chuckled..... because I had already done this...including have the cylinder heads flow tested on the same flow bench.....

The Dart 2 cylinder heads were 64cc, 200 cc runners out of the box.... they flowed 230 @ .600 lift and 160 @ .600 lift out of the box, after porting by a very reputable porter on the west coast(Bob McCray of McCray Performance), they flowed 228 @ .400 lift, 256 @ 600 lift and 178 @ .600 on the exhaust. After the porting, I improved 2 tenths et.... more flow is a good thing!!

The AFR's were out of the box 190 street version that were advertised to flow in the 260 @ .600 area, but Ralph had a 5 angle valve job done to them. They flowed 240 @ .400 lift - 282 @ .600 lift and 210 @ 600 on the exhaust..... which was high, me and Ralph figured it was the valve job that perhaps helped them flow so high....... which in my opinion, was outstanding considering the baby 190 cc runner and they were not cnc ported.

As a note, both cylinder heads were of the same vintage, (both were mid 90's castings)

Tony, where's my $ 750...... I did this test 4 years ago !!

Thats all I have to say.

pr0zac

it was a dual sided comment. i don't blame it on AFR totally. i don't blame it on myself either. both cars are capable of a better quarter and/or mph. i just never had time to prove it. nor do i care to cause its a street car and what my car lacks is made up with lots of nitrous. and in the end i will usually win or the other person won't race. it was just a point that AFR's aren't just going to magically make your car fast and its not only the heads. FWIW i would have to say LT4 heads flow closer to 240, highest i have seen 250. and my AFR's flowed 275/215 @ .600 as per their website.

Iron Chef

It is possible for someone to belabor a point to a level where, right or wrong, they themselves become the source of irritation. Sometimes, backing out of a debate after stating your argument or opinion is the wise thing to do.

I think there are a few posters in this thread who have had more than enough opportunity to speak their minds. Perhaps it's time for others to do some of the talking.

Just a suggestion.

MK 82

I think you should hit them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper. This thread was irrelevant long ago.

Ryan59

Too many attacks.

A few on this thread assume they are an authority on engine building. Everyone else is below them. They may be a legend in their own mind but to most of us, they can take what they know about engine building home with them. I was running a valve grinding machine in a shop at age 15. Knew how to cut a 60 degree back-cut on an intake valve at that age as well. I've probably bought and sold more engine parts then these "experts".

KLLRVET

You seem to be as big of a zealot as any. In the other thread you discussed heads that did not apply to the OP's engine. So, how was anything you had to say of any benefit to the OP? You didn't stay on subject.

you seem to me to just be another troll who like to pound his chest and spew a lot of HOT air.

Iron Chef

Enough.