The "AFR thread" to end all others....
08-30-2008, 07:07 PM
#41
Drifting
Member Since: Mar 2008
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Group Buy
Since I have a 6-speed car with a 4:10 gear, I'm not as concerned with "matching the converter" like automatic owners are. A usable RPM range with a nice flat torque curve should be your goal.
I doubt I will ever take my car to the track. I enjoy cruising around town and some highway driving. My car also has long-tube headers and a B&B exhaust. It's ready for 195 AFR heads and a little bigger cam.
Group Buy.......Group Buy......Group Buy.....
I doubt I will ever take my car to the track. I enjoy cruising around town and some highway driving. My car also has long-tube headers and a B&B exhaust. It's ready for 195 AFR heads and a little bigger cam.
Group Buy.......Group Buy......Group Buy.....
08-30-2008, 08:18 PM
#42
Team Owner
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Now had he asked "LT4 vs aftermarket heads?" and some people popped in with AFR you are more then welcome to bring up any manufacturer you'd like. Now that whole thread has turned into a bunch of garbage though because it has strayed WAY too far off topic. That's the issue some people are having.
Last edited by jsup; 08-30-2008 at 10:16 PM.
08-30-2008, 08:37 PM
#44
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Guys....
Psssssst....got a secret
JSUP doesnt really exist
(Its another screen name that I use to keep AFR threads alive!)
No one could really be this annoying
Nice avatar addition by the way....I couldn't have missed that previously!
Later,
Tony
Psssssst....got a secret
JSUP doesnt really exist
(Its another screen name that I use to keep AFR threads alive!)
No one could really be this annoying
Nice avatar addition by the way....I couldn't have missed that previously!
Later,
Tony
08-30-2008, 08:46 PM
#45
Team Owner
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08-30-2008, 11:15 PM
#48
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
The 195 Comp would be a small kick *** LT4 head (again hypothetically) with a larger valve and a larger port opening than the street 195 (close to a 1206 Felpro in height and width) and of course the entire 210 line would obviously be considered LT4's (fairly close to the actual LT4 volume with alot more flow). The 227's would be an even larger LT4 AFR offering obviously meant for big cubes, a solid roller valvetrain, and an overall more aggressive combination.
I'm thinking this is the info you were looking for....
Tony
08-30-2008, 11:27 PM
#49
But again, the OP didn't ask "What kind of Ford should I buy?", he asked a very specific "GM LT4 vs AFR" heads question. When a pointed question like that is asked, it deserves as pointed of an answer as possible.
Now had he asked "LT4 vs aftermarket heads?" and some people popped in with AFR you are more then welcome to bring up any manufacturer you'd like. Now that whole thread has turned into a bunch of garbage though because it has strayed WAY too far off topic. That's the issue some people are having.
Now had he asked "LT4 vs aftermarket heads?" and some people popped in with AFR you are more then welcome to bring up any manufacturer you'd like. Now that whole thread has turned into a bunch of garbage though because it has strayed WAY too far off topic. That's the issue some people are having.
08-30-2008, 11:27 PM
#50
Safety Car
I personally do not see anything wrong with challenging a products validity as jsup has done with AFR.... makes for interesting conversation & debate.
But, I do think jsup should back it up with some facts, which if he has, I didn't notice them..... Anyway, it is not a perfect science to compare cylinder heads, so what I did real quick is a comparison of AFR vs Patriot & Trick flow... I did a Brodix comparison in the other thread if that interests anybody.
Because its tough to compare, I decided to use a real world example of a C4 owner with a new big cube sbc motor who is on a budget of approxmiately $ 1500 for cylinder heads and then dug up the below information.
As a note, the AFR 210's are out of the box street version, not the competition version. The Patriots are 215's that are fully cnc'd, the Trick flows are also 215's, not sure on if any cnc work was done to them.
The AFR's cost $ 1543 per Summit
The Patriots cost $ 1495 per Summit
The Trick Flow's cost $ 1577 per Summit
In otherwords, all cylinder heads are basically the same price....(I realize some might be able to find slightly better deals from their local distributor or internet bargain house)
Here is how they compare on the intake & exhaust.
Intake
..................AFR.........Patriot... Diff......Trickflow.....Diff
.200...........139............141.....-2........141............-2
.300...........199............195.....+4 ........199............ 0
.400...........249............234.....+1 5......244............+5
.500...........279............260.....+1 9......273............+6
.550...........289............272.....+1 7......n/r.............n/r
.600...........295............278.....+1 7......282............+13
Exhaust
.................AFR..........Patriot... Diff.......Trickflow.....Diff
.200..........110............105......+5 ..........107..........+3
.300..........158............144......+1 4........145..........+13
.400..........192............176......+1 6........175..........+17
.500..........210............190......+2 0........190..........+20
.550..........214............195......+1 9........n/r...........n/r
.600..........220............201......+1 9........198..........+22
Its pretty clear that the non CNC ported AFR's with a smaller runner beat the Patriots & Trick flows on both the intake & exhaust. If somebody asked me advise on which cylinder head to purchase with their $ 1500 budget for a big cube street/strip sbc, I'd tell them the street version AFR 210's based upon these 3 brands.......
On another note, the AFR's are pretty much out performing the others on midlift and highlift.... thus, they certainly look like they are the right solution for most applications including a big cube sbc with only .450 lift (Who here would do that anyway) or as most do that are going with an aggressive hyd roller street cam, up around .600 lift...... either way, they look tought to beat.
Jsup, do you have a better cylinder head choice for me ? I have recently built a 436 sbc, .600 lift hyd roller cam, application is bracket car.... I will be running in multiple points series, car will see 200+ passes per year, yet will see some easy going weekend street time. I have $ 2000 earmarked for cylinder heads. The AFR 210 comp eliminators are my choice right now.... that is unless somebody shows me a better cylinder head for the money, and I "promise" you, I'll buy it if you can sell me.
But, I do think jsup should back it up with some facts, which if he has, I didn't notice them..... Anyway, it is not a perfect science to compare cylinder heads, so what I did real quick is a comparison of AFR vs Patriot & Trick flow... I did a Brodix comparison in the other thread if that interests anybody.
Because its tough to compare, I decided to use a real world example of a C4 owner with a new big cube sbc motor who is on a budget of approxmiately $ 1500 for cylinder heads and then dug up the below information.
As a note, the AFR 210's are out of the box street version, not the competition version. The Patriots are 215's that are fully cnc'd, the Trick flows are also 215's, not sure on if any cnc work was done to them.
The AFR's cost $ 1543 per Summit
The Patriots cost $ 1495 per Summit
The Trick Flow's cost $ 1577 per Summit
In otherwords, all cylinder heads are basically the same price....(I realize some might be able to find slightly better deals from their local distributor or internet bargain house)
Here is how they compare on the intake & exhaust.
Intake
..................AFR.........Patriot... Diff......Trickflow.....Diff
.200...........139............141.....-2........141............-2
.300...........199............195.....+4 ........199............ 0
.400...........249............234.....+1 5......244............+5
.500...........279............260.....+1 9......273............+6
.550...........289............272.....+1 7......n/r.............n/r
.600...........295............278.....+1 7......282............+13
Exhaust
.................AFR..........Patriot... Diff.......Trickflow.....Diff
.200..........110............105......+5 ..........107..........+3
.300..........158............144......+1 4........145..........+13
.400..........192............176......+1 6........175..........+17
.500..........210............190......+2 0........190..........+20
.550..........214............195......+1 9........n/r...........n/r
.600..........220............201......+1 9........198..........+22
Its pretty clear that the non CNC ported AFR's with a smaller runner beat the Patriots & Trick flows on both the intake & exhaust. If somebody asked me advise on which cylinder head to purchase with their $ 1500 budget for a big cube street/strip sbc, I'd tell them the street version AFR 210's based upon these 3 brands.......
On another note, the AFR's are pretty much out performing the others on midlift and highlift.... thus, they certainly look like they are the right solution for most applications including a big cube sbc with only .450 lift (Who here would do that anyway) or as most do that are going with an aggressive hyd roller street cam, up around .600 lift...... either way, they look tought to beat.
Jsup, do you have a better cylinder head choice for me ? I have recently built a 436 sbc, .600 lift hyd roller cam, application is bracket car.... I will be running in multiple points series, car will see 200+ passes per year, yet will see some easy going weekend street time. I have $ 2000 earmarked for cylinder heads. The AFR 210 comp eliminators are my choice right now.... that is unless somebody shows me a better cylinder head for the money, and I "promise" you, I'll buy it if you can sell me.
Last edited by Beach Bum; 08-31-2008 at 10:01 AM.
08-30-2008, 11:49 PM
#51
Racer
Well, yeah, which AFR should I buy is the same thing. Or LT4 or AFR, same thing. So you think asking if he looked at anything else is out of line? I see it this way, maybe he did in which case I'll learn something. Tell me why you picked AFR. Give me some information. On the other hand maybe he just read the noise here and decided there was no other head. Either way, what's the big deal in asking? How many people ask "which AFR"?
No, you are not welcome to bring up any brand without expecting an internet bitch slap.
No, you are not welcome to bring up any brand without expecting an internet bitch slap.
JSUP...did it ever occur to you that people always ask about AFR heads because they actually work? Don't you think that if Dart, Brodix, Edelbrock or Trick Flow made a head that was 100% equal to AFR heads that they would be brought up more often? They do not perform as well as the AFR's do. I speak from experience. The 2 fastest combinations I've ever owned had AFR heads on them. I am thinking this will be the 3rd.
Last edited by CarNDrvr; 08-30-2008 at 11:52 PM.
08-31-2008, 02:18 AM
#52
Safety Car
Maybe this can shed some light. I am the original poster of the "ported LT4's vs. AFR 210" thread. I didn't ask "which AFR head?" I asked about a specific AFR head. I've built a 496 BBC with AFR 305 heads. I've built a Procharged 383 with AFR 210 heads. I've had several small blocks in the past with anything from Vortec heads to Trick Flow heads to Dart Pro 1 heads. I had a set of Pro 1's fully ported, and they peaked at 296cfm intake, 196cfm exhaust. I had well over $2K in those heads before I was done. For $700 less, I could have gotten the same, if not better results from a set of AFR heads right out of the box. I am no stranger to the aftermarket head world. My own research, previous builds and lots of seat time have come to the conclusion that AFR makes the best aftermarket head available...period!!! I didn't ask about any other head manufacturors because I've pretty much run them all and I have proven to myself which head provides the best results. This all started with a simple question. I wanted to know if stepping up from a CNC ported LT4 head to an AFR 210 head was worth the effort, and what kind of gains I could expect. I don't have the flow #'s on my heads now, but from what Tony said earlier, it doesn't matter. They won't even come close to what an AFR can do.
JSUP...did it ever occur to you that people always ask about AFR heads because they actually work? Don't you think that if Dart, Brodix, Edelbrock or Trick Flow made a head that was 100% equal to AFR heads that they would be brought up more often? They do not perform as well as the AFR's do. I speak from experience. The 2 fastest combinations I've ever owned had AFR heads on them. I am thinking this will be the 3rd.
JSUP...did it ever occur to you that people always ask about AFR heads because they actually work? Don't you think that if Dart, Brodix, Edelbrock or Trick Flow made a head that was 100% equal to AFR heads that they would be brought up more often? They do not perform as well as the AFR's do. I speak from experience. The 2 fastest combinations I've ever owned had AFR heads on them. I am thinking this will be the 3rd.
08-31-2008, 03:51 AM
#53
Le Mans Master
Why are you only considering SBC heads? Haven't you considered taking two 4 cylinder heads, welding them together and running them? Just because everyone here loves SBC heads doesn't mean that it is all that is out there. Haven't you done any research!? Surely you can't be asking a specific question due to doing research about your specific plan you posted in great detail!!!
I'm sure this direct answer to your question really helped you out and hasn't just added more chit to the message board further preventing you from getting a worthwhile answer!
Do people here not know about OT or something?
I'm sure this direct answer to your question really helped you out and hasn't just added more chit to the message board further preventing you from getting a worthwhile answer!
Do people here not know about OT or something?
08-31-2008, 03:57 AM
#54
Le Mans Master
It seems to me that there is alot of unessessary hostility being thrown around these two threads. I believe that jsup was well within his right to offer up some alternatives to the AFR's. This is an open forum afterall. Now, name calling and ridiculing is really not helping anyone.
If I were currently in the market for aftermarket heads, at this point, I would probably go for AFR's. My reason, well there are two. One, from what I've read, heard and seen, the AFR's seem to perform pretty well. Especially in terms of a street driven car. I mean really, how often do any of us get to WOT outside of the track? Two, I have yet to hear of any real problems, at least of the expensive variety. I've been around this forum for a little while and have not heard any complaints.
Until a couple of days ago, I had never heard the name Tony Mamo. I read a little article in "Chevy High Performance" and he made alot of sense to me, a restaurant manager in Kansas. Perhaps the article might have been a sales pitch, but hey, it was a good one.
Now, when I am in the market for an aftermarket head, guess what? I do not have alot of time or desire to research every option out there. I have better things to do with my time. So I hear of a product that seems to get good results, has a good reputation among people with engines like mine, and is evidently reliable. Plus they make a product that is a direct fit for my particular engine, no muss no fuss. Sure, there might be a better brand out there that will add a couple of extra ponies, but I'm not racing for pink slips or money, so who cares?
Am I on the "bandwagon"? I don't think so. I'm just a guy that wants to have fun in my Vette and not feel the need to get an engineering degree just to make an "informed" decision about a cylinder head. Word of mouth is the best advertising, and on this forum it seems AFR is getting alot of it. To me this means it is most likely a good choice.
Now, Mr Mamo, if 50 people buy AFR's because of this post, I want a complimentary set of 210's with 7/16 studs and 1.7:1 rollers.
If I were currently in the market for aftermarket heads, at this point, I would probably go for AFR's. My reason, well there are two. One, from what I've read, heard and seen, the AFR's seem to perform pretty well. Especially in terms of a street driven car. I mean really, how often do any of us get to WOT outside of the track? Two, I have yet to hear of any real problems, at least of the expensive variety. I've been around this forum for a little while and have not heard any complaints.
Until a couple of days ago, I had never heard the name Tony Mamo. I read a little article in "Chevy High Performance" and he made alot of sense to me, a restaurant manager in Kansas. Perhaps the article might have been a sales pitch, but hey, it was a good one.
Now, when I am in the market for an aftermarket head, guess what? I do not have alot of time or desire to research every option out there. I have better things to do with my time. So I hear of a product that seems to get good results, has a good reputation among people with engines like mine, and is evidently reliable. Plus they make a product that is a direct fit for my particular engine, no muss no fuss. Sure, there might be a better brand out there that will add a couple of extra ponies, but I'm not racing for pink slips or money, so who cares?
Am I on the "bandwagon"? I don't think so. I'm just a guy that wants to have fun in my Vette and not feel the need to get an engineering degree just to make an "informed" decision about a cylinder head. Word of mouth is the best advertising, and on this forum it seems AFR is getting alot of it. To me this means it is most likely a good choice.
Now, Mr Mamo, if 50 people buy AFR's because of this post, I want a complimentary set of 210's with 7/16 studs and 1.7:1 rollers.
08-31-2008, 06:20 AM
#57
It seems to me that there is alot of unessessary hostility being thrown around these two threads. I believe that jsup was well within his right to offer up some alternatives to the AFR's. This is an open forum afterall. Now, name calling and ridiculing is really not helping anyone.
If I were currently in the market for aftermarket heads, at this point, I would probably go for AFR's. My reason, well there are two. One, from what I've read, heard and seen, the AFR's seem to perform pretty well. Especially in terms of a street driven car. I mean really, how often do any of us get to WOT outside of the track? Two, I have yet to hear of any real problems, at least of the expensive variety. I've been around this forum for a little while and have not heard any complaints.
Until a couple of days ago, I had never heard the name Tony Mamo. I read a little article in "Chevy High Performance" and he made alot of sense to me, a restaurant manager in Kansas. Perhaps the article might have been a sales pitch, but hey, it was a good one.
Now, when I am in the market for an aftermarket head, guess what? I do not have alot of time or desire to research every option out there. I have better things to do with my time. So I hear of a product that seems to get good results, has a good reputation among people with engines like mine, and is evidently reliable. Plus they make a product that is a direct fit for my particular engine, no muss no fuss. Sure, there might be a better brand out there that will add a couple of extra ponies, but I'm not racing for pink slips or money, so who cares?
Am I on the "bandwagon"? I don't think so. I'm just a guy that wants to have fun in my Vette and not feel the need to get an engineering degree just to make an "informed" decision about a cylinder head. Word of mouth is the best advertising, and on this forum it seems AFR is getting alot of it. To me this means it is most likely a good choice.
Now, Mr Mamo, if 50 people buy AFR's because of this post, I want a complimentary set of 210's with 7/16 studs and 1.7:1 rollers.
If I were currently in the market for aftermarket heads, at this point, I would probably go for AFR's. My reason, well there are two. One, from what I've read, heard and seen, the AFR's seem to perform pretty well. Especially in terms of a street driven car. I mean really, how often do any of us get to WOT outside of the track? Two, I have yet to hear of any real problems, at least of the expensive variety. I've been around this forum for a little while and have not heard any complaints.
Until a couple of days ago, I had never heard the name Tony Mamo. I read a little article in "Chevy High Performance" and he made alot of sense to me, a restaurant manager in Kansas. Perhaps the article might have been a sales pitch, but hey, it was a good one.
Now, when I am in the market for an aftermarket head, guess what? I do not have alot of time or desire to research every option out there. I have better things to do with my time. So I hear of a product that seems to get good results, has a good reputation among people with engines like mine, and is evidently reliable. Plus they make a product that is a direct fit for my particular engine, no muss no fuss. Sure, there might be a better brand out there that will add a couple of extra ponies, but I'm not racing for pink slips or money, so who cares?
Am I on the "bandwagon"? I don't think so. I'm just a guy that wants to have fun in my Vette and not feel the need to get an engineering degree just to make an "informed" decision about a cylinder head. Word of mouth is the best advertising, and on this forum it seems AFR is getting alot of it. To me this means it is most likely a good choice.
Now, Mr Mamo, if 50 people buy AFR's because of this post, I want a complimentary set of 210's with 7/16 studs and 1.7:1 rollers.
Well said. In my opinion. Air Flow Research (AFR) has a wide variety of different cylinder heads to match probably 99% of our motors.
I know of 4 guys that used there old AFR's with great results. I have always wanted to try a set, and with the new AFR eliminators, it's a no brainer!
Plus they back there product. My 421 will have a set of 195cc (196cc) Comp Port's, and I am sure it will perform, and have crazy throttle response which is what you want for a street driven car. Who wants a lazy 225cc-230cc head that barely flows 290cfm? I certainly dont.
08-31-2008, 08:21 AM
#58
Racer
I'm sorry but I thought we had rules (or maybe I'm thinking of another board) that prohibited public attacks. As I've said repeatedly, if we want to discuss the performance of your cylinder heads it has to be technical (and then we can get into some in depth discussion off all the product lines and all applications). Coming on here and making statement of superiority about one product will not do much to sway those of us who don't agree with some of what you're saying....
I'm very thankful Tony has taken the time to post here and patiently deal with complaints & issues while providing technical and practical inside poop on AFR heads.
Not too many performance product vendors out there doing anything like this much less the guy who designed the product.
Bart
Last edited by 89FX3; 08-31-2008 at 08:44 AM.
08-31-2008, 08:29 AM
#59
Racer
08-31-2008, 08:40 AM
#60
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
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I will answer Beach Bum the same way I answered a PM.
Originally Posted by
I saw some of the head bashing controversy on the forum, and I figured I would ask your opinion on them.
I had a thread a while back about affordable heads, and said that most AFR and Dart are a bit out of my price range. Wanted to know if you know a company that is affordable, or if there are Dart that are cheaper than $1300+ that flow good to make 430-450chp on a 350. I was eyeing up the Brodix IK series but don't know any flow #s for them. Also, I'm running a dual plane performer intake and performer RPM cam. Thanks for any help in advance.
I saw some of the head bashing controversy on the forum, and I figured I would ask your opinion on them.
I had a thread a while back about affordable heads, and said that most AFR and Dart are a bit out of my price range. Wanted to know if you know a company that is affordable, or if there are Dart that are cheaper than $1300+ that flow good to make 430-450chp on a 350. I was eyeing up the Brodix IK series but don't know any flow #s for them. Also, I'm running a dual plane performer intake and performer RPM cam. Thanks for any help in advance.
First, I am no expert on heads. MY point was that having been through the process, there's a lot of aspects that need to be considered, only one of which are flow numbers. For example, which cam? Which intake? Which exhaust? Max lift? Budget...
There was a recent post about a 500CI or so motor making over 525 HP with Brodix IKs. Patriot has a nice set for under $1200. The Brodix IK can be had for uner $1000 I believe and Brodix gets $200 to mill the head to spec and clean up the bowls. IMO, that would be a leader in my book. But don't ' write off Patriot.
https://www.patriot-performance.com/...ome.php?cat=67
There's Canfield too that has a good reputation:
http://www.canfieldheads.com/sbc.html
The problem with Brodix IKs is that they only come in a straight plug configuration, which can be hard with headers. Most headers like angle plugs, which is why I went to the Race Rites the first time.
Don't forget to add the price of milling to the desired CC for the chamber. You need to keep compression up too. You have iron heads. THese have a 72CC chamber. I know that Dart is opening up my chambers to 72CC for $200. So will Brodix. Just a consideration. Look what happened to me, I put a motor together, raised compression by .5 points, and threw a bearing. I don't know if you want to go putting more compression on a used, stock bottom end.
Remember, flow numbers are related to compression so flow numbers in a vacuum, are not a good judge, in my opinion. Compression, size of the chamber, etc.. will determine the outcome. If your cam only lifts .500 you don't need flow over that, so it doesn't matter. PLUS, you're only at max lift a very short time since by definition it's MAX.
Get your entire build together in terms of cam, intake, exhaust, injector size the heads will fall into place. Whatever the best for that application is, it is. If budget is the consideration I'd probably think Patriot or IKs, since they are a good quality, inexpensive head. But that remains to be seen.
Caution....one thing I learned is that too many people build things they are ultimately not happy with. The reason is mis matched parts.
So if you're looking for in depth technical info, sorry, I don't have it. However, I can give you the information I learned based on my experience in trying to pick the right product, and I think the bottom line is dont rule anything in or out until you figure it out, and don't let marketing determine your decision. Get what you need, within your budget, with the focus on YOUR BUILD, your budget.
I hope somehow this helped.
Last edited by jsup; 08-31-2008 at 08:44 AM.