Beltslip on LT1 with P600b supercharger
09-27-2009, 11:59 AM
#22
[QUOTE=rtracy;1571632087]
The answer to your question is yes. Between the optispark and the six rib portion of your crank pulley there is room to squeaze in 8 ribs w/out modifying the opti. the 8-rib would be dedicated solely to the blower and the 6-rib would drive all the stock accessories. the belt slip being..., all the accessories and the blower are being driven by approxiately 3" of belt contact at the bottom of the crank pulley.
The 8-rib conversion cures most belt slip issues on our cars by getting enough wrap around the crank pulley that its no longer the weak link...belt slip at the blower pulley now becomes the weak link and the 8-ribs helps with that.
i used to make the 8 and 12 rib conversions for forum members when no one else was supporting the conversions for procharger. Carroll supports procharger conversions now so I've quit making the drive conversions. He shold be able to throw you a price...you may be able to find it on his web page, too.
The 8-rib conversion cures most belt slip issues on our cars by getting enough wrap around the crank pulley that its no longer the weak link...belt slip at the blower pulley now becomes the weak link and the 8-ribs helps with that.
i used to make the 8 and 12 rib conversions for forum members when no one else was supporting the conversions for procharger. Carroll supports procharger conversions now so I've quit making the drive conversions. He shold be able to throw you a price...you may be able to find it on his web page, too.
09-27-2009, 01:18 PM
#23
Heel & Toe
Thread Starter
Member Since: Mar 2007
Location: Linköping
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK! that cog-kit does not look very compatible with my damper. I guess that the 12-rib are supposed to mount the same way.
As you can se i have an ATI damper, and the 6rib pulley is integrated in the damper. The crankpulley is also about 1" bigger than stock.
As you can se i have an ATI damper, and the 6rib pulley is integrated in the damper. The crankpulley is also about 1" bigger than stock.
09-28-2009, 08:41 PM
#26
Melting Slicks
I don't believe you'll be able to readily find this used, I know Russel (qwiketz) was planning on going with a cog setup and was contemplating on selling his ATI setup, but I do believe that he was later told he could interchange the belt configuration and retain his ATI pulley after all.
In other words, the corvette is really the only application this crank pulley/damper is used for. We can't even interchange the crank pulley with the F-body guys. So it's a VERY small market. Small enough that vortech has discontinued the kit for the y-body Lt-x cars.
09-28-2009, 08:44 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
Blowerworks has a different layout for the head units of these Lt-x corvettes that places the intake side of the blower right next to the passenger side valve cover.
I was curious to know if this type of mount can be used (placed further toward the radiator) so that the owner can run a 12-rib IN-FRONT of the existing 6-rib accessory drive pulley? I know a lot of you guys have mentioned that there isn't much room to work with going toward the radiator, But i'm curious to know if there is "enough" room for dedicated drive system using the F-body crank pulley layout (blower pulley infront of the accessroy drive pulley).
I was curious to know if this type of mount can be used (placed further toward the radiator) so that the owner can run a 12-rib IN-FRONT of the existing 6-rib accessory drive pulley? I know a lot of you guys have mentioned that there isn't much room to work with going toward the radiator, But i'm curious to know if there is "enough" room for dedicated drive system using the F-body crank pulley layout (blower pulley infront of the accessroy drive pulley).
09-28-2009, 09:19 PM
#28
Instructor
Member Since: Jul 2009
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Brand-X;1571633692]
The answer to your question is yes. Between the optispark and the six rib portion of your crank pulley there is room to squeaze in 8 ribs w/out modifying the opti. the 8-rib would be dedicated solely to the blower and the 6-rib would drive all the stock accessories. the belt slip being..., all the accessories and the blower are being driven by approxiately 3" of belt contact at the bottom of the crank pulley.
The 8-rib conversion cures most belt slip issues on our cars by getting enough wrap around the crank pulley that its no longer the weak link...belt slip at the blower pulley now becomes the weak link and the 8-ribs helps with that.
i used to make the 8 and 12 rib conversions for forum members when no one else was supporting the conversions for procharger. Carroll supports procharger conversions now so I've quit making the drive conversions. He shold be able to throw you a price...you may be able to find it on his web page, too.
BrandX,
What was involved in modifying for 8 rib?
Did you just shorten the spacers on the blower mount, or does it involve adding in a dedicated tensioner for the 8 rib and other pullies?
Curious as to how extensive it was to make an 8 rib setup?
The answer to your question is yes. Between the optispark and the six rib portion of your crank pulley there is room to squeaze in 8 ribs w/out modifying the opti. the 8-rib would be dedicated solely to the blower and the 6-rib would drive all the stock accessories. the belt slip being..., all the accessories and the blower are being driven by approxiately 3" of belt contact at the bottom of the crank pulley.
The 8-rib conversion cures most belt slip issues on our cars by getting enough wrap around the crank pulley that its no longer the weak link...belt slip at the blower pulley now becomes the weak link and the 8-ribs helps with that.
i used to make the 8 and 12 rib conversions for forum members when no one else was supporting the conversions for procharger. Carroll supports procharger conversions now so I've quit making the drive conversions. He shold be able to throw you a price...you may be able to find it on his web page, too.
What was involved in modifying for 8 rib?
Did you just shorten the spacers on the blower mount, or does it involve adding in a dedicated tensioner for the 8 rib and other pullies?
Curious as to how extensive it was to make an 8 rib setup?
09-29-2009, 02:33 AM
#29
Melting Slicks
[QUOTE=HighMileage;1571649953]
not to step on Brandx's toes, but Blowerworks currently sells the complete 8-rib conversion.
www.blowerworks.net
Greg also modifies the existing supercharger bracket on the vortechs to add another idler. I am not sure if this service is available for the procharger items.
www.blowerworks.net
Greg also modifies the existing supercharger bracket on the vortechs to add another idler. I am not sure if this service is available for the procharger items.
09-29-2009, 10:22 AM
#30
[QUOTE=HighMileage;1571649953]
I've tried several different ways to modify the crank pulley. I currently run a one-off ATI damper on my car (6+12 ribs) that is expensive (+$700). If you interested in the 12-rib conversion, I'll share the ATI design number with you...you should be able to get it for less as it is now an existing design in their database. The Carroll (I beleive he has a turn key conversion he sells for Procharger) pulley is an ATI and if you call ATI or Carroll Supercharging, the price quoted above in this chain is probably correct--ATI dampers are quality pieces that are SFI certified (in case you race). Just know, if you order from ATI, give them several months to fill your order...they're not real interested in doing those one-off items and it is my understanding they hold orders until there is a slow down in production items before they make them. I've worked with Lee at ASP several times and he can/will modify the stock crank pulley (6+8 ribs) for about half the cost of ATI's pulley. He sleaves it and cuts the 8-ribs into the sleaved area giving you stock 6-ribs and overdrive 8-ribs. It is a nice piece but not SFI certified. I'm pretty sure that includes keying the pulley hub too (it's been awhile, you may want to check with Lee directly).
I worked with Damper Dudes on a custom 6+12 rib pulley (one of my first prototypers) but they didn't have a jig or they had a problem with their jig and the end product, though it looked nice, had what I beleived to be excessive runout so I never installed it. That's when I went to ATI for one of their solid pieces.
I know Carroll (a.k.a. Greg Carroll) modifies the vortech bracket for the vortech conversion but I've not personally seen one of his conversion so I don't know if it includes re-positioning the head unit or not. His Procharger bracket appears to be a new design (not a vortech or Procharger bracket mod). On the brackets I used to make (I no longer sell conversions...I just offer my advice to forum members), I had to re-position the head unit closer the the engine, up a little bit, and inboard slightly to ensure everything cleared frame and suspension parts (not too hard to figure out). I used an off the shelf manual tensioner Procharger sells and haven't had any problems with it (IC Vette bought and ran one of my 8-rib conversions w/manual tensioner, I think he had success with it...in other words, do consider a manual tensioner as an option). I know when Bruce was designing his cog drive, I shared some of my older designs with him and I think he may have gone manual tensioner too...maybe he'll chime in with his thoughts on the subject.
As the post above this one points out, Carroll Supercharging makes an 8-rib conversion for Procharger and Carroll is known for quality products and good customer service. I've bought parts from him in the past and it was a positive experience. I think Lee at ASP knows his business and provides good customer service too. I don't think Lee sells conversion but rather just the components for the the conversions. I think anyone who has had belt slip issues and has done a conversion will tell you, it completely changes the way your car runs and you'll have much more consistency with tuning.
Good Luck!
Chris
I worked with Damper Dudes on a custom 6+12 rib pulley (one of my first prototypers) but they didn't have a jig or they had a problem with their jig and the end product, though it looked nice, had what I beleived to be excessive runout so I never installed it. That's when I went to ATI for one of their solid pieces.
I know Carroll (a.k.a. Greg Carroll) modifies the vortech bracket for the vortech conversion but I've not personally seen one of his conversion so I don't know if it includes re-positioning the head unit or not. His Procharger bracket appears to be a new design (not a vortech or Procharger bracket mod). On the brackets I used to make (I no longer sell conversions...I just offer my advice to forum members), I had to re-position the head unit closer the the engine, up a little bit, and inboard slightly to ensure everything cleared frame and suspension parts (not too hard to figure out). I used an off the shelf manual tensioner Procharger sells and haven't had any problems with it (IC Vette bought and ran one of my 8-rib conversions w/manual tensioner, I think he had success with it...in other words, do consider a manual tensioner as an option). I know when Bruce was designing his cog drive, I shared some of my older designs with him and I think he may have gone manual tensioner too...maybe he'll chime in with his thoughts on the subject.
As the post above this one points out, Carroll Supercharging makes an 8-rib conversion for Procharger and Carroll is known for quality products and good customer service. I've bought parts from him in the past and it was a positive experience. I think Lee at ASP knows his business and provides good customer service too. I don't think Lee sells conversion but rather just the components for the the conversions. I think anyone who has had belt slip issues and has done a conversion will tell you, it completely changes the way your car runs and you'll have much more consistency with tuning.
Good Luck!
Chris
Last edited by Brand-X; 09-29-2009 at 11:31 PM.
09-29-2009, 05:58 PM
#31
Melting Slicks
Guys, $550 for Greg's damper isn't alot of money. I just spent $650 just for the shell on my cog drive. If you were to order one of these cog drive's complete, it would run you about $1150 and take about 3 months. ATI offers significant discounts for larger orders which is how Greg was able to get the pricing down. It's a quality piece as mentioned and having anything made for the low volume y body is expensive. The OEM vortech piece was about $1000 last time I called them(vortech). I believe that was a 6 rib drive and 7 rib blower setup. My car came with a 6 rib originally.
With the reverse rotation vortechs and I would imagine the reverse rotation prochargers the 8 rib blower pulley is subbed in for the 6 or 7 rib blower pulley. The damper sits closer to the opti with the 8 rib drive. In your case with how the bracketry looks, you may just need to reduce the spacers between the back plate and the engine heads mounting points. You would then add the width you took off back on the spacers between the two blowwer plates. This would be the procedure for the setups with the dedicated blower drive.
With the standard rotation blowers such as the older carrol vortech kit, the spacers from the bracket to the mounting place of the blower are reduced, moving the blower closer to the engine. The 8+6 ati damper is used.
If you post somemore photos of your setup, I'd probably be able to tell you how to set it up with an 8+6 setup if you can't find something on Greg's site @ www.blowerworks.net . I know he used to convert the vortech kits as Monsterlt1 mentioned. Cost on that was about $1100 or so for the vortechs. I'm not sure what it runs for the prochargers.
With the reverse rotation vortechs and I would imagine the reverse rotation prochargers the 8 rib blower pulley is subbed in for the 6 or 7 rib blower pulley. The damper sits closer to the opti with the 8 rib drive. In your case with how the bracketry looks, you may just need to reduce the spacers between the back plate and the engine heads mounting points. You would then add the width you took off back on the spacers between the two blowwer plates. This would be the procedure for the setups with the dedicated blower drive.
With the standard rotation blowers such as the older carrol vortech kit, the spacers from the bracket to the mounting place of the blower are reduced, moving the blower closer to the engine. The 8+6 ati damper is used.
If you post somemore photos of your setup, I'd probably be able to tell you how to set it up with an 8+6 setup if you can't find something on Greg's site @ www.blowerworks.net . I know he used to convert the vortech kits as Monsterlt1 mentioned. Cost on that was about $1100 or so for the vortechs. I'm not sure what it runs for the prochargers.
Last edited by qwiketz; 09-29-2009 at 06:16 PM.
09-30-2009, 12:12 AM
#32
In your case with how the bracketry looks, you may just need to reduce the spacers between the back plate and the engine heads mounting points. You would then add the width you took off back on the spacers between the two blowwer plates. This would be the procedure for the setups with the dedicated blower drive.
.
.
If you can get your blower on the correct plain as the damper and the hood actually closes without hitting the blower, you still need to address availible belt lengths, idler(s), and tensioner....
As a side note, it appears "Carroll Supercharing" was rebranded as "BlowerWorks"...we're talking about the same place/person.
Last edited by Brand-X; 09-30-2009 at 12:19 AM.
10-01-2009, 11:46 AM
#34
Melting Slicks
Sorry qwiketz, that's bad info.... If you simply shorten the spacers between the plate and the engine, the blower volute wont clear frame rail that runs in front of the engine. And, if you simply raise the blower to clear the frame rail, you run into hood and frame/suspension clearance issues...the blower needs to be moved inboard too.
If you can get your blower on the correct plain as the damper and the hood actually closes without hitting the blower, you still need to address availible belt lengths, idler(s), and tensioner....
As a side note, it appears "Carroll Supercharing" was rebranded as "BlowerWorks"...we're talking about the same place/person.
If you can get your blower on the correct plain as the damper and the hood actually closes without hitting the blower, you still need to address availible belt lengths, idler(s), and tensioner....
As a side note, it appears "Carroll Supercharing" was rebranded as "BlowerWorks"...we're talking about the same place/person.
100% with brandX. You cannot do the conversion by just shorten the spacer. Gosh I wish it is that simple. The conversion required you must reposition the blower and some of the spacer hole location need also to relocate in order for the belt routing to clear it. At least that is what I remember. As far as able to reuse the original bracket, I don't see how is is possible. I had tried countless times, it ain't gonna do it and I am sure BrandX can confirm it. It would be nice if greg come in and explain how he able to do it without major or totally re do the bracket. There is nothing secret about it. Come in tell us how your is different than what BrandX and I talking about.
10-02-2009, 07:55 AM
#35
Hi Guys, greg here from BlowerWorks (aka Carroll Supercharging). I have 3 LTx blower solutions all of which use the ATI 6+8 SuperDamper with the 8 ribs for the blower and a spring loaded belt tensioner. Solution 1 is my original CW rotation Vortech kit using the S, T, or Y trim. Solution 2 is the upgraded Vortech kit using a S or T trim. Solution 3 is the ProCharger D1SC (CCW) using an all new bracket set up much like the Vortech CCW. All 3 can be seen on my website and all 3 now use my new slotted blower pulley. Best regards, greg
10-02-2009, 08:02 AM
#36
PS: no solution for the ProCharger P600B other than my crank pulley (which does help) and a slotted blower pulley. Customer I helped made 8 pounds and 420 RWHP on an otherwise stock LT1. He said he did not experience any belt slip but I do not know for sure. He's not using the 8 rib section of the ATI balancer. But he can now upgrade to the D1SC and a new bracket and not have to worry about the crank pulley. Anyone still using an original GM crank pulley should key it at minimum and replace it at best. A damper does not last forever and a lot of the GM pieces are not exactly round - LOL !!!
BR - greg
BR - greg
10-02-2009, 11:10 AM
#37
Melting Slicks
[QUOTE=BlowerWorks; using an all new bracket set up much like the Vortech CCW. Best regards, greg[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much for your inputs to clear up all the confusion regarding the original bracket being able to reuse.
Thank you very much for your inputs to clear up all the confusion regarding the original bracket being able to reuse.
10-26-2009, 04:28 PM
#38
Race Director
I recently put a P600B (and procharger C4 intercooler) on my 93 lt1 (heads/cam car).
Im also using the ATI superdamper from Blowerworks.net (which is a little bit bigger in diameter than the stock damper). Although its a 6 + 8 rib setup, its not necessary for me to use an 8 rib belt to achieve the boost levels (8 psi) that I want. Im using Greg Carroll's 3" diameter slotted 6 rib supercharger drive pulley. Im also using a gates 6-rib belt. My belt length is 92 7/8". I have an AC delete pulley in place, so keep in mind that may change what belt length you need. My belt is very tight, but possible to slip over the stock spring loaded tensioner when its fully retracted.
Im hitting 8psi max boost every time I punch it, without much slip. However, as the belt wears I'll need to see if Im still hitting that kind of boost. There still is some rubber residue that accumulates on the bracket.
I was only hitting 6.75 psi boost with the stock damper and had some rubber residue on my S/C bracket. I think that the ATI superdamper (though a pain to install) was what made my car achieve my boost goals (although not sure how much of the boost increase was due to reduction of belt slip and how much was due to the fact that I now have a bigger driving pulley. )
Im also using the ATI superdamper from Blowerworks.net (which is a little bit bigger in diameter than the stock damper). Although its a 6 + 8 rib setup, its not necessary for me to use an 8 rib belt to achieve the boost levels (8 psi) that I want. Im using Greg Carroll's 3" diameter slotted 6 rib supercharger drive pulley. Im also using a gates 6-rib belt. My belt length is 92 7/8". I have an AC delete pulley in place, so keep in mind that may change what belt length you need. My belt is very tight, but possible to slip over the stock spring loaded tensioner when its fully retracted.
Im hitting 8psi max boost every time I punch it, without much slip. However, as the belt wears I'll need to see if Im still hitting that kind of boost. There still is some rubber residue that accumulates on the bracket.
I was only hitting 6.75 psi boost with the stock damper and had some rubber residue on my S/C bracket. I think that the ATI superdamper (though a pain to install) was what made my car achieve my boost goals (although not sure how much of the boost increase was due to reduction of belt slip and how much was due to the fact that I now have a bigger driving pulley. )
Last edited by dizwiz24; 01-20-2010 at 09:15 AM.
10-29-2009, 01:52 PM
#39
Race Director
Heres a picture of the ATI 6+8 rib after I installed it.
As you can see, the tolerance between it and the optispark is very little! but enough. The 6 rib portion is inline will all the rest of the serpentine driven accessories.
As you can see, the tolerance between it and the optispark is very little! but enough. The 6 rib portion is inline will all the rest of the serpentine driven accessories.
10-31-2009, 09:33 AM
#40
Le Mans Master
PS: no solution for the ProCharger P600B other than my crank pulley (which does help) and a slotted blower pulley. Customer I helped made 8 pounds and 420 RWHP on an otherwise stock LT1. He said he did not experience any belt slip but I do not know for sure. He's not using the 8 rib section of the ATI balancer. But he can now upgrade to the D1SC and a new bracket and not have to worry about the crank pulley. Anyone still using an original GM crank pulley should key it at minimum and replace it at best. A damper does not last forever and a lot of the GM pieces are not exactly round - LOL !!!
BR - greg
BR - greg